"Church survival doesn't depend on music style."

[GregH]

Mark_Smith wrote:

I know how you feel brother. I have felt that myself. Certain people, because they are a quality control engineer (as I understand it), or because they have read Genesis 1 and have a dog-eared copy of The Genesis Flood, or have read 19th century philosophy of science, think they are experts in Big Bang Cosmology. They have a Bible believing expert in physics and cosmology sitting right in front of them, and they don’t care… Their opinion trumps knowledge I guess.

Oh well…

Sad.

I wonder if it is more of a blessing or a curse to know everything about everything…

Well, Greg & Mark, since you, on the basis of your knowledge of music and astronomy, feel that is sufficient information to release yourselves from the laws of logic, maybe you’ve got the answer for us?

By the way, I’ve never commented on big bang cosmology here. And I’m trained originally as a EE—we’re the guys that gave musicians their unit for loudness and named the deci-bell after a hero of ours, Alexander Graham Bell. We also learned how to quantify how all those chords mathematically, and we can point out the differences between resonance and dissonance with sinusoidal and Bessel functions.

But of course we know bupkus about music. We just design your radio and your amplifier. The one that goes all the way to eleven, of course. And we know nothing about astronomy. We just design the electronics that run your telescope and imaging. Knowing relative power levels and where those signals are coming from, and what frequencies they’re using, has nothing to do with it, of course. Certainly we don’t learn the principles of how to figure these things out in our coursework.

You know, gentlemen, there is an intellectual tradition called the “liberal arts” which contends that a person trained in the basics of knowledge—grammar, dialectic/logic, rhetoric, arithmetic, geometry, astronomy and music—can speak intelligently about a wide range of subjects and need not be the hostage of a real or pretended authority. Between you, you’ve got at least two of these down and presumably four—I spent enough weekends at the Adler in Chicago to learn there’s some serious arithmetic and geometry there—but hey, let’s go for seven. See where it goes.

You wrote:

Or maybe we can each use arguments from Scripture and reason (as Luther would say) to argue our positions. We can draw upon our own areas of knowledge and expertise without using them as trump cards and conversation stoppers.

That’s madness! You must be joking! On the other hand, perhaps I shouldn’t try to be funny. I don’t have any credentials in comedy …

[Greg Long]

Maybe we can just each declare our credentials at the beginning of each thread so we can see who is actually qualified to comment on the topic at hand.

Peet = zero posts

In his 1993 book Reclaiming Authentic Fundamentalism, Douglas McLachlan identified “Focusing on Mechanical Forms rather than Biblical Principles” as being a key issue that is problematic within fundamentalism. On page 9, he wrote:

“The first and clearest evidence that one has slipped into this mode of thought is the tendency to confuse traditional forms with Biblical substance.”

After some elaboration, he continued:

“At the heart of this problem is our inability to think principally rather than mechanically. We fail to see that, while the message is inflexible, the methodology is versatile. Within Biblical parameters methods may change without compromise. This refusal to govern our thinking by principles means that we begin to absolutize non-absolutes so that methods become tyrants rather than servants. The result is that authentic ministry is actually stifled by the idolization of one particular method.”

Of course, the “elephant in the room” as far as church methods are concerned is music.

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Many among us defiantly confuse “traditional forms with Biblical substence.” We have made an idol of “one particular method.” The tragic result, as McLachlan points outs, is that “authentic ministry is actually stifled.” I’m seeing increasing signs though that change is brewing.

I was at a very well-known IFB church a year ago (March 2015) for a funeral. (Understand that this church has long been known for its staunch musical traditionalism.) During the funeral, there were four songs: two traditional hymns (which now I couldn’t name), and two song selections that greatly surprised me: Blessings, by Laura Story (which won the 2012 Grammy Award for Best CCM Song), and Praise You In This Storm, by Casting Crowns. (IMO both songs are very appropriate for use in a funeral, BTW.) From the conversation after the funeral, both songs were very well-received, deeply touching those in attendance.

I know two churches in the Minnesota Baptist Association (long known for its traditional music-only position) which have (quietly) begun to include some CCM songs (one church calls them “praise choruses”) in their services.

Not sure this is the right venue, but I’ll ask it anyway. Since church “survival”, which evidently is synonymous with numerical growth, is the subject, and one would assume that that growth is primarily through evangelistic endeavors into society, there is a question that is begging.

What is the Biblical imperative that indicates that music of any style is a tool of importance/choice for evangelism in ours or any culture?

[Craig]

…. so …. music is the ingredient for growing churches …. and not preaching

It’s both…..and more.

Historically, I can think of many churches and/or evangelists known for their evangelistic prowess that recognized that music is a powerful, allied evangelistic tool. Think of D. L. Moody, and the great song leader Ira D. Sankey immediately comes to mind. Billy Sunday had Homer Rodeheaver. Bob Jones Sr. utilized music greatly in his early evangelism. Billy Graham (whatever your opinion is of him) had Cliff Barrows and George Beverly Shea. Spurgeon famously deplored much of the contemporary hymnody of his day (which ironically is what we today so often idolize), yet he didn’t seek to oust it from the Met Tab–he recognized its evangelistic value.

[Lee]

Not sure this is the right venue, but I’ll ask it anyway. Since church “survival”, which evidently is synonymous with numerical growth, is the subject, and one would assume that that growth is primarily through evangelistic endeavors into society, there is a question that is begging.

What is the Biblical imperative that indicates that music of any style is a tool of importance/choice for evangelism in ours or any culture?

Singing praises to God can be a witness to unbelievers:

“1 Oh give thanks to the Lord; call upon his name;
make known his deeds among the peoples!
2 Sing to him, sing praises to him;
tell of all his wondrous works!
3 Glory in his holy name;
let the hearts of those who seek the Lord rejoice!” (Psalm 105:1-3 ESV)

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Paul and Silas sang in prison, and it served as a witness to unbelievers:

”25 About midnight Paul and Silas were praying and singing hymns to God, and the prisoners were listening to them, 26 and suddenly there was a great earthquake, so that the foundations of the prison were shaken. And immediately all the doors were opened, and everyone’s bonds were unfastened. 27 When the jailer woke and saw that the prison doors were open, he drew his sword and was about to kill himself, supposing that the prisoners had escaped. 28 But Paul cried with a loud voice, “Do not harm yourself, for we are all here.” 29 And the jailer called for lights and rushed in, and trembling with fear he fell down before Paul and Silas. 30 Then he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” 31 And they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.” 32 And they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all who were in his house. 33 And he took them the same hour of the night and washed their wounds; and he was baptized at once, he and all his family. 34 Then he brought them up into his house and set food before them. And he rejoiced along with his entire household that he had believed in God.” (Acts 16:25-34 ESV)

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Just for a start……

[Lee]

Not sure this is the right venue, but I’ll ask it anyway. Since church “survival”, which evidently is synonymous with numerical growth, is the subject, and one would assume that that growth is primarily through evangelistic endeavors into society, there is a question that is begging.

What is the Biblical imperative that indicates that music of any style is a tool of importance/choice for evangelism in ours or any culture?

I had given I Cor. 14:15 earlier as an indication that we should have those outside the church in mind when we sing. This passage says that we should sing with understanding. The context of the passage was addressing speaking in tongues and those outside the church coming in and not understanding what they were saying. Then he used music as an illustration to say what we do in the church setting should be understandable to those without the church. That doesn’t necessarily state that is for evangelizing, but we certainly should be aware of their presence when we sing and do so in a manner in which they can understand.

On the Facebook pages of many people who attend traditional music-only IFB churches, I have almost ceased to be surprised by often seeing CCM listed under their music favorites. Locally, I see KTIS (the large local Twin Cities CCM radio station) on numerous such people’s Facebook pages, and/or a variety of CCM singers or groups. I even know of some traditional music-only IFB church staff members whose Facebook pages list CCM favorites.

[Larry Nelson]

Singing praises to God can be a witness to unbelievers:

“1 Oh give thanks to the Lord; call upon his name;
make known his deeds among the peoples!
2 Sing to him, sing praises to him;
tell of all his wondrous works!
3 Glory in his holy name;
let the hearts of those who seek the Lord rejoice!” (Psalm 105:1-3 ESV)

–––––––––––––––––—

Paul and Silas sang in prison, and it served as a witness to unbelievers:

”25 About midnight Paul and Silas were praying and singing hymns to God, and the prisoners were listening to them, 26 and suddenly there was a great earthquake, so that the foundations of the prison were shaken. And immediately all the doors were opened, and everyone’s bonds were unfastened. 27 When the jailer woke and saw that the prison doors were open, he drew his sword and was about to kill himself, supposing that the prisoners had escaped. 28 But Paul cried with a loud voice, “Do not harm yourself, for we are all here.” 29 And the jailer called for lights and rushed in, and trembling with fear he fell down before Paul and Silas. 30 Then he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” 31 And they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.” 32 And they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all who were in his house. 33 And he took them the same hour of the night and washed their wounds; and he was baptized at once, he and all his family. 34 Then he brought them up into his house and set food before them. And he rejoiced along with his entire household that he had believed in God.” (Acts 16:25-34 ESV)

––––––––––––––––––-

Just for a start……

The question was “What is the Biblical imperative that indicates that music of any style is a tool of importance/choice for evangelism in ours or any culture?” Unquestionably music—singing and instrumentation—are commanded elements of worship in both the Old and New Testaments. Furthermore, I Cor. 14 makes it clear that legitimate, orderly worship emphasizing the gift of prophecy (for “……edification…exhortation…comfort…”) over the less understandable gifts (tongues, etc.), and assumedly including music, will oftentimes result in conversion of unbelievers. Conviction is a product of the proclaimed truth of God’s Word and is not limited to purely evangelistic presentations of that truth.

However, that music in worship as the Psalms passage(s) indicate may, through the proclamation of truth, affect unbelievers towards truth does not give anything close to an imperative for music as a significant component for evangelistic church growth. Throughout the Psalms music is an expression of the redeemed to the redeemed and to God.

The Acts passage is a non-sequitur: there is nothing that indicates the jailer was even aware of the singing—he woke up after the earthquake and that was his first awareness that anything unusual was going on.

In regards to Acts 16, I didn’t mention the jailer. The other prisoners clearly heard though…….and the reason they didn’t flee was due to the witness (in prayer & song) of Paul & Silas (at least that’s how it’s always been explained by the preachers I’ve heard…..). The implication is that their hearts were being softened to the Truth.

How about this one:

“He put a new song in my mouth,
a song of praise to our God.
Many will see and fear,
and put their trust in the Lord.” (Psalm 40:3 ESV)

Note my other post above too: evangelists past & present have always placed a high priority on music as a key element of their outreach. Of course that doesn’t mean they’re operating from any Biblical imperative; perhaps they only have seen it as helpful & expedient. (If so: Pragmatists!) =)

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Note too: there is a whole sub genre of Christian hymns, songs, etc. that by their very nature are intended to be mainly, if not solely, evangelistic. Just As I Am is an obvious example.

[Lee]

The question was “What is the Biblical imperative that indicates that music of any style is a tool of importance/choice for evangelism in ours or any culture?” Unquestionably music—singing and instrumentation—are commanded elements of worship in both the Old and New Testaments. Furthermore, I Cor. 14 makes it clear that legitimate, orderly worship emphasizing the gift of prophecy (for “……edification…exhortation…comfort…”) over the less understandable gifts (tongues, etc.), and assumedly including music, will oftentimes result in conversion of unbelievers. Conviction is a product of the proclaimed truth of God’s Word and is not limited to purely evangelistic presentations of that truth.

However, that music in worship as the Psalms passage(s) indicate may, through the proclamation of truth, affect unbelievers towards truth does not give anything close to an imperative for music as a significant component for evangelistic church growth. Throughout the Psalms music is an expression of the redeemed to the redeemed and to God.

The Acts passage is a non-sequitur: there is nothing that indicates the jailer was even aware of the singing—he woke up after the earthquake and that was his first awareness that anything unusual was going on.

Short of a passage that says “Thou shalt use music as an evangelistic tool,” I’m not sure what else you need. A plain reading of I Corinthian 14 says that when we sing we need to be aware of those that are in the service that are not of the church and what we do when we sing needs to be understandable to them. That doesn’t mean we have to use music strictly evangelistically (with a call to Christ). They can learn through the teaching of music that is also edifying the Christians. That can be accomplished with hymns, or in my opinion, contemporary music as well. And yes, music is the secondary thought in the passage but that doesn’t disqualify it from the plain meaning of the text. I’m not sure what else you are looking for.

[Greg Long]

Maybe we can just each declare our credentials at the beginning of each thread so we can see who is actually qualified to comment on the topic at hand. Or maybe put them in our post signatures? Or maybe Aaron could design a filter that filters out people who aren’t qualified to comment on a particular topic? Greg can comment on music threads, Mark on science threads (but wait, if we’re talking about creation in Gen. 1, isn’t that a biblical studies thread?), Dr. McCune might be the one most qualified to comment on theological threads…. (Not sure what I’m qualified to comment on…Philadelphia Phillies baseball? The epistemological development of pre-ministry undergraduates at Bible college according to the Perry Scheme?)

Or maybe we can each use arguments from Scripture and reason (as Luther would say) to argue our positions. We can draw upon our own areas of knowledge and expertise without using them as trump cards and conversation stoppers.

Huh? How’d I get dragged into that one? :^)

I’m going to prefer to stick with “encouraging people to promote their inner polymath and learn the tools of logic and rhetoric to honor God”, or something like that. Sounds a whole lot better than having incessant squabbles over credentials, and it could, I guess, include the epistemological development of pre-ministry undergraduates at Bible colleges, maybe even according to a scheme I might someday devise.