Doug Wilson - A Theology of Resistance for Florists

Thank you, Doug!

Wilson wrote:

This is why we see so many of the evangelical intelligentsia (sic) doing what intelligentsioids do best — which is to flake. In the meantime, even though it feels like the Alamo redux, the task of upholding the moral order of Scripture and Christendom falls to bakers, photographers, and arrangers of flowers. This is a true occasion for having mixed emotions — being deeply proud of our ordinary foot soldiers and profoundly ashamed of our leadership.

I wish I could do more, but here are just a few practical theological observations for the ordinary Christian, still at his beleaguered post, wondering why headquarters won’t respond to repeated pleas for air support. Ordinary Christians would be justified in feeling the same way that ordinary Ukrainians do when they pleaded for aid against the Russian invasion, and Obama sent them extra socks to help get them through the winter. Winter wasn’t the problem.

Ouch … !

Tyler is a pastor in Olympia, WA and works in State government.

If I were a baker, or plumber, or electrician, or any business that was open to the public; I would serve all who would pay my going rate without asking questions.

There was (and maybe still is) a trailer hitch company (might have been Reese) that had a gospel tract in every box.

As an aside …. CakeWrecks is a funny site,

[Jim]

If I were a baker, or plumber, or electrician, or any business that was open to the public; I would serve all who would pay my going rate without asking questions.

That’s fine, Jim. Do you think someone whose conscience and understanding of the bible is different from yours should be punished by the state? The woman in question didn’t ask questions, and served the homosexual man happily before. It was this ceremony, when presented to her, she didn’t believe before God she could be a part of. I think she should have that right to refuse under law.

Good point. I’ve often wondered about this myself. On the other hand, if a Muslim cakemaker refused to make a wedding cake for a Christian wedding because he thought it would be blasphemy to write Bible verses on the cake, then I wouldn’t sue the guy. I’d understand and just … find another cake guy.

Tyler is a pastor in Olympia, WA and works in State government.

Do you think someone whose conscience and understanding of the bible is different from yours should be punished by the state?

  • Would the state concern itself with the electrician who refused to serve someone? (for whatever reason?)

I think the state would call that discrimination.

If you’re a Baptist, then you (ought to) believe the NT teaches that people ought to be left alone to worship as they see fit, with no oversight or coercion from the government. Baptists believe this because each person is personally responsible to God for himself. Therefore, certain New England colonies were terribly wrong to punish Baptists who weren’t part of the Congregational Church. Baptists just wanted to be left alone to worship God as they believed the NT taught; instead they were harassed and persecuted by the authorities. Now, today, we have the issue of gay “marriage”

  • What practical implications does this have for Christians who are against gay “marriage”? Should we just retreat because morality can’t be legislated? Is this a Biblical model, or pathetic fatalism?
  • On the other hand, what does this show about the totalitarianism of the gay “marriage” movement?

Tyler is a pastor in Olympia, WA and works in State government.

I do believe in a separation of church and state. I also believe in submission to the governing authorities.

Back to my hypothetical electrician (since I am not one): Would it be discrimination for the electrician to have a “gay-test” before doing electrical work? I think so. I think it would be wrong. And I’m also certain it would be illegal.

Consider this example: Two men arrive at the hardware store. They need some electrical extension cords. The clerk asks what the application is and the men say they are planning an outdoor wedding by a lake and need some specialized (grounded, outdoor specific) electrical cords and outlets for the wedding.

What makes the baker (or florist) different than the electrician ? 

Tyler asked:

  • What practical implications does this have for Christians who are against gay “marriage”? Should we just retreat because morality can’t be legislated? Is this a Biblical model, or pathetic fatalism?
  • On the other hand, what does this show about the totalitarianism of the gay “marriage” movement?
  • There is literally no such thing as gay marriage! The state can call it whatever they want. Marriage is ONLY between a man and a woman. This is clear to me.
  • What can I do personally? For starters, endeavor to have an A+ marriage that follows the Biblical model.
  • Is selling a cake, flowers, electrical or plumbing work; toleration of gay marriage. NOT at all! It’s selling a product or service to all who are legally protected.
  • How do I feel about the baker who refuses to sell a cake to gays? It’s their business. It’s their consequences. If the don’t want to sell cakes to gays … either don’t make cakes at all or specialized in non-wedding cakes. As an aside, I would not stock gay wedding toppers (like below). If someone wanted a gay wedding topper I would let them buy one online and put it on themselves. I would just say .. “I don’t stock that item … but it is freely available from other sources” (like Amazon)

How is baking a cake “be[ing] a part of” so-called gay-marriage?

Take some other vendor issues:

  • The Christian landlord (and frankly I would not be a landlord). Housing laws require non-discrimination for all kinds of issues including sexual preference.
  • Same with a Christian couple who owns and rents cabins or motel rooms (again I wouldn’t be in this business)
  • I previously mentioned the electrician and the plumber and the guy in the hardware store
  • What about the small businessman who sells computers. I can only imagine the nefarious things that people use an Internet browser for. One must ask and confirm: “you will not use this computer for viewing pornography, right?!”

Does any pastor of a church of any size really think that there are not gays who attend your worship services. There is no test for them at the door.

I would suggest that at some services in a church of 300 or 400 +, there are very probably adulterers, fornicators, onetime pedifiles and other perverts in the very same room.

Jude says that in his day, there were “[such] people [as] blemishes at your love feasts, eating with you without the slightest qualm” (Jude 1:12). They might even be eating cake in the fellowship hall!

[Jim]

How is baking a cake “be[ing] a part of” so-called gay-marriage?

Take some other vendor issues:

  • The Christian landlord (and frankly I would not be a landlord). Housing laws require non-discrimination for all kinds of issues including sexual preference.
  • Same with a Christian couple who owns and rents cabins or motel rooms (again I wouldn’t be in this business)
  • I previously mentioned the electrician and the plumber and the guy in the hardware store
  • What about the small businessman who sells computers. I can only imagine the nefarious things that people use an Internet browser for. One must ask and confirm: “you will not use this computer for viewing pornography, right?!”

I asked: “Do you think someone whose conscience and understanding of the bible is different from yours should be punished by the state?” You are simply responding with what the law is (in some states). I’m asking you if you think the law should make no room for individual conscience. It appears that you think it’s just fine for the state to disregard conscience in the face of the homosexual agenda.

As to the other matter, for some people, their work, especially creative work (photography, baking, flower arranging), is something they do feel is part of the ceremony that are working for. That’s part of the joy of their job. Flower arrangers are using their craft to enhance a wedding. You don’t feel any connection to the ceremony. They do. It is a matter of conscience. (Obviously this doesn’t apply to an employee for Target. We’re talking about a business owner. It’s up to Target to accommodate or not accommodate their employees religious concerns).

Most of your examples do not apply in any way to the case at hand. The woman whose life is being destroyed did not refuse to serve homosexuals. She loved them, and regards them as friends. Her conscience would not go so far as the ceremony. Shouldn’t she have that right? Shouldn’t a decent society protect her at least as much as the homosexual couple?

I may not be clear on the facts of the case so clear this up for me.

You said: ” Her conscience would not go so far as the ceremony.”

I ask: How was she to be involved in the ceremony. It’s been along time (40 years) but when I was married, the baker baked the cake. I’m not even sure it was delivered … I think my sister-in-law picked it up at the grocery.

Was the baker required to go to the ceremony? Cut the cake?

See I don’t see this group as special: “As to the other matter, for some people, their work, especially creative work (photography, baking, flower arranging), is something they do feel is part of the ceremony that are working for. “

(By the way .. while I have never cooked or baked cakes … I have put my hand to floral arranging. I worked for a wholesale florist for 1+ years. Frankly it’s not as much creative work as one might think!)

  • Does the typical florist, baker, or photographer ask any real tough moral questions associated with their creative work. Like
    • Have you been living together prior to marriage … I mean I will only do weddings for virgins!
    • Are both members of the party truly saved?
    • Is this a second marriage? Well wait a minute, I’m not so sure your divorce met the Biblical standard for divorce.
  • Frankly I doubt it

What makes their creative work more special than my creative work in Information Technology. (You should have seen some of my code … only I understood it!)