Parenting in the Haze of Legalized Marijuana

Really appreciated Piper’s sound reasoning and Scriptural exegesis on this matter. He puts forth a coherent argument and also exposes the folly of some of those who argue that ‘it’s no big deal’.

Usually I like Piper but he is out of his league here. However I think he did write a somewhat balanced piece. The balance part is reflected with lumping other bad habits such as banal T.V. watching, ingesting poor foods, etc. with indiscriminate recreational Cannabis use. Cannabis may be abused but so can many other substances and habits such as cell-phone addiction, excessive gaming, and internet camping. I believe Cannabis may be used recreationally in a responsible manner.

Mary Jane is a code word for drug Cannabis and I will refer to it properly as “Cannabis.”

What Piper fails to recognize is proper distinctions of effect. Cannabis works pretty much the same effects-wise in everyone (within reasonable boundaries). What is different is each individual person. Allow me to clarify: How it affects a person is largely related to the person’s own mindset and their external environment (setting). So “set and setting” determine greatly the subjective experience a person has. If a person is in a bad mood and Cannabis is smoked, usually the bad mood is exacerbated. If the setting is pleasant and supporting with the subject in a good mental state, the positive mood is enhanced. This is the fundamental effect of drug Cannabis that has been selected toward higher THC and lower CBD. In the past 1000s of years farmers have selected Cannabis for high THC and low CBD because that is what they wanted. It could be likened to perfecting beer, wine, spirits for their recreational use (at least in my mind).

Higher CBD concentrations delay onset, cause the peak effect to be lower and lengthen the duration. CBD’s effect has many medical applications but is not an exclusive Cannabinoid for all medical benefits. Besides the many cannabinoids in Cannabis terpenes modulate THC for effect. Pure THC is unpleasant and bizarre is the report from researchers in the field. It is the terpenoids contained in a sample that greatly influence the effect. Terpenes are found in virtually all foods and scents.

Using cannabis recreationally is somewhat like mind-driving. At first onset the accelerator is pushed too far and the subject (if they are not experienced) struggles with too many thoughts coming too fast. Later, during the downslope of the sine-wave modeling, the subject seeks to ramp up the thought process speed but it has been spent earlier (this is what is portrayed as “lazy stoner” result but the portrayal ignores the initial heightened effect). Within a few hours everything is back to normal.

In summary: drug Cannabis is an enhancement substance and also a thought generator (not new thoughts but increased activity of thoughts already contained in the subject) with the corresponding deficit of thought generation activity in its comedown phase. Additionally, most Cannabis (mainly Indica type as opposed to Sativa type) relaxes the body. The Sativa type has traditionally been used by farmers and laborers as an energizer during mundane repetitive tasks.

I can respond to anyone with questions tomorrow as I am almost out the door today.

If you are okay with alcohol, then you cannot reasonably be opposed to Marijuana. I am opposed to the use of both.

Cognative dissonance: psychological conflict resulting from simultaneously held incongruous beliefs and attitudes (as a fondness for smoking and a belief that it is harmful)

Yes, you can be okay with alcohol and oppose marijuana-

I Corinthians 9:27 But I discipline my body and keep it under control,[b] lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified.

2 Corinthians 7:1 Since we have these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from every defilement of body and spirit, bringing holiness to completion in the fear of God.

Believers are called to self control and to cleanse ourselves from every defilement of the body. But it’s ok to use substances that alter the mind and emotions?
I’m not buying it. Since I’ve never had a drink of alcohol nor smoked a joint, I have no personal experience with the effects of either one. But, I’ve read enough about the subject to know that even one drink or one puff has some kind of effect on the body/mind. And I seriously doubt that is something which glorifies the Creator God.

Don’t know ‘bout y’all, but I’m tired of the arguments that try to weaken the arguments about the effects of alcohol, etc. by saying sugar, sunlight, (insert any other item here) also have an effect therefore what do we do about those things.

No, it isn’t inconsistent to not ban those other items as well. If we are going to talk about banning things that have an effect on the body/mind, we might as well ban everything in existence while we are at it. Everything in this world can have an effect on us. The question isn’t if something has an effect on us or not. The question is what kind of effect does it have and where does it lead.

Why isn’t it inconsistent? Because sugar isn’t known to destroy the body, families, marriages, intoxicate, significantly alter a person’s behavior - and on and on. Sunlight may give you a sunburn, but it isn’t strongly discouraged (in my belief) in the Bible. Orange juice tastes great and has some nutritional value, but beyond that … .

One group of items (alcohol, marijuana, tobacco) destroys, kills, alters & tears down. The other list of items is relatively banal.

One group has an inherent and direct effect in destroying our spirit and taking us away from the Lord. The other items aren’t inherently so.

Alex, your explanation does not fully address or illustrate a distinction between alcohol induced inebriation and the intoxicating effects of marijuana. That’s Piper central point. You said yourself it’ s like “mind-driving”. My experience with marijuana would support that. For most people, it’s a fairly instantaneous, mind altering condition, similar, but not quite the same as intoxication. Perhaps a heavy buzz. (Assuming one excepts a gradient of alcohol intoxication, stretching from warm & fuzzy to blackout.) As you said, with good weed, you go from 0 - 60. Boom. Whereas, those of us who enjoy alcoholic beverages know it’s completely different.

Another trouble spot for defending weed, and indirectly for those who claim using alcohol is the same, is that the Scriptures are explicit in the use and support of alcoholic beverages. (I know we’ve debated it.) But there are guidelines in God’s Word about the use and misuse of alcohol. You can only draw arguments of inference for marijuana. That’s not to say you can’t try to make them, but they are still analogous, not explicit.

Which leads to Piper’s ultimate point. Isn’t the nuanced defense for smoking weed similar to the question of how far can I go with my girlfriend? We would say, don’t seek to see how far you can go, be holy. Seek godliness. And so with drugs, we should say, why would I long for a mind altering experience? Why push the proverbial envelope? The joy of life isn’t enough? You need to modify your mental state?

Aren’t you really reducing this to an even simpler problem? I just want to be happy, bro. Weed makes me feel so good. It’s a thought generator, man. God wants me to be happy, right? To which we respond. Freedom from sin, and a life of righteousness that exemplifies the fruit of the Spirit, is the path to fulfillment. If you want to get high, set your mind on things above.

*sigh*

As has been pointed out ad nauseam, one drink of tea or one piece of chocolate also has “some kind of effect on the body/mind.” So can sugar, sunlight, exercise, and orange juice. That something has an effect on the mind/body is not, in itself, the issue here—which is precisely why one can reasonably oppose one and accept the other.

So how can those of you who oppose alcohol and marijuana overlook the obvious effects of caffeine, et. al? Isn’t it inconsistent for you not to ban those as well?

Does the Bible continually warn against the dangers of excess caffeine consumption?

dmicah makes a salient point -
Aren’t you really reducing this to an even simpler problem? I just want to be happy, bro. [Alcohol] makes me feel so good. It’s a thought generator, man. God wants me to be happy, right? To which we respond. Freedom from sin, and a life of righteousness that exemplifies the fruit of the Spirit, is the path to fulfillment. If you want to get high, set your mind on things above.

I made this point earlier in another thread…if you consume alcohol / marijuana because ‘it helps you relax’ or ‘makes you feel good’ and that is your motivation for pursuing it, then I feel like that motivation needs to be carefully examined. If that really is what you need to unwind, then is it an idol or does it have control over you? Why can you not unwind or be happy with the knowledge that God has already given you of Himself and what He does for us?

Jay, hate to retread, but there is a distinction between alcohol and marijuana. I can drink a beer like you might drink a soda. It’s a flavored beverage that goes with a good meal. Same for a glass of wine.

I’d have to pound 3 - 5 beers, in rapid succession, to match the intoxicating effects of the marijuana from a joint or a blunt.

And once again, let’s go back to Scripture, which clearly and explicitly offers guidance. God, in fact, gave wine for the merriment of our heart.

By the way, for all of the abstinence folk who claim that a single sip, or a drink has some kind of physical effect, you can only be referring to undetectable biological minutiae. As a practical matter there is no inebriating effect to a single drink imbibed moderately, i.e. throughout the course of a meal.

[dmicah]

Alex, your explanation does not fully address or illustrate a distinction between alcohol induced inebriation and the intoxicating effects of marijuana. That’s Piper central point. You said yourself it’ s like “mind-driving”. My experience with marijuana would support that. For most people, it’s a fairly instantaneous, mind altering condition, similar, but not quite the same as intoxication. Perhaps a heavy buzz. (Assuming one excepts a gradient of alcohol intoxication, stretching from warm & fuzzy to blackout.) As you said, with good weed, you go from 0 - 60. Boom. Whereas, those of us who enjoy alcoholic beverages know it’s completely different.

Another trouble spot for defending weed, and indirectly for those who claim using alcohol is the same, is that the Scriptures are explicit in the use and support of alcoholic beverages. (I know we’ve debated it.) But there are guidelines in God’s Word about the use and misuse of alcohol. You can only draw arguments of inference for marijuana. That’s not to say you can’t try to make them, but they are still analogous, not explicit.

Which leads to Piper’s ultimate point. Isn’t the nuanced defense for smoking weed similar to the question of how far can I go with my girlfriend? We would say, don’t seek to see how far you can go, be holy. Seek godliness. And so with drugs, we should say, why would I long for a mind altering experience? Why push the proverbial envelope? The joy of life isn’t enough? You need to modify your mental state?

Aren’t you really reducing this to an even simpler problem? I just want to be happy, bro. Weed makes me feel so good. It’s a thought generator, man. God wants me to be happy, right? To which we respond. Freedom from sin, and a life of righteousness that exemplifies the fruit of the Spirit, is the path to fulfillment. If you want to get high, set your mind on things above.

Hi Micah,

You have two posts which appear to contradict each other. On one hand you say pot and alcohol are similar and another post that they are fundamentally different.

I have reread Piper and he really is deficient in his understanding of Cannabis. He has not read, it is obvious to me, any pharmalogical studies about the substance. Neither is he aware of the historical usage. He is a “popular” preacher who seeks to address a lay audience. I don’t know what area PhD studies involved, but, he is at best a “popular theologian” and not a technical one. Shouldn’t we heed the Biblical admonition to “carefully examine” issues before commenting on them? Desiring God Ministries likes to dish it out but, it seems, doesn’t want the interaction, the “push back” to what they say. Where is the “comment section?”

As a starting point Dr. Grinspoon would be a good place to start for a current and informed view. Here is a man who sought, by scientific research, to try to convince the youth back in the 60s against pot. After his studies, he had to change his mind about the substance.

Alcohol, in my view, is a pleasant, social substance recommended and blessed by God explicitly. We can validly deduce the implicit truth about pot that it was made by God and is “good.” Pot is more like a performance drug: it makes a person think quicker with the corresponding deficit on comedown phase. This is why snowboarders, surfers, mountain bikers, etc. find the substance enhancing their activity. These effects are undeniable and Piper has missed them completely. Piper reminds me of Fox News’ selectively reporting on issues. He seems to want to give some pastoral guidance on the issue but, in my mind, has not done sufficient research to come to an unbiased conclusion.

Hey Micah -

I understand that you are still differentiating between the permissible use of alcohol and marijuana, but I wanted to comment on the sentiment expressed, since I’ve heard that from others, both on and off-line, on this issue several times now.
If an unsaved guy came into my office and said that he needed to drink in moderation because it helped him unwind, I would want to follow up on that and pursue it deeper, because it’s obvious he’s looking for satisfaction in the wrong place - that comes from God. If a believer came into my office and said the same thing, I would still want to find out why he can get that from alcohol and only alcohol.

So too much caffeine will make you a twitchy, neurotic monster?? Really? You are comparing caffeine with alcohol??

When was the last time you heard of anyone arrested for driving while under the influence (effects) of caffeine? When was the last time you heard of a children being bitter at their father because he was a Mt. Dew drunk? How many marriages have been broken because of the influence of too much coffee? How many secular laws do you see restricting the age of consumption of Red Bull or Rock Star?

You want the alcohol=bad side to change their language and stop talking about how these things have “effects” on a person? Of course we are going to talk about how it affects you because guess what, it does! The Bible doesn’t strongly teach against alcohol in my belief (or strongly discourage only excess to others) because it has no effect on a person. The Bible’s teaching/warnings about alcohol isn’t just filler material. It is there because . . yes, of how it affects a person.

And you are talking about sloppy categorization! (Y)!

Jay and Alex

Jay, I think I understand your distinction.

It’s simple to me, at least. Pot = instant high (some gradient there). Alcohol is not an instant high. Alex, I know there’ s a million ways to use weed, but I’ve never considered it a performance enhancing drug. It’s more like a laze your butt off - do nothing but eat garbage drug.

If Scripture’s consistent thread on the abuse of alcohol relates to coming under its influence, then such should apply to coming under the influence of THC. If you can’t control it, then you shouldn’t use it.

If you’re saying you can control the high, I suppose that’s between you and God.

Back to “Parenting in the Haze of Legalized Marijuana”:

• Parents can and should control their children.
• There are many temptations out there: marijuana just one of scores (alcohol, substance abuse of all kinds, et cetera)
• How do parents control?
  • Know what teens are doing, whom they are with
  • Look for evidences of drug use (it’s not that difficult)
  • Keep ‘em busy with school, family activities and church (and sports) (in my mind “working” is a better development of young people than sports. Start them early shoveling snow, mowing grass, babysitting, etc. Teach them how to earn and save $$. At 14 most teens can and should work part time (my view))
  • Poor academic performance may be an indicator of drug use
  • Use strategy of rewards and withholding of privilege to steer teens. Eg linking of car privilege to correct behavior
• The church is not the answer to every teen issue. There’s the family, God’s ordained institition!

[dmicah]

Jay and Alex

Jay, I think I understand your distinction.

It’s simple to me, at least. Pot = instant high (some gradient there). Alcohol is not an instant high. Alex, I know there’ s a million ways to use weed, but I’ve never considered it a performance enhancing drug. It’s more like a laze your butt off - do nothing but eat garbage drug.

If Scripture’s consistent thread on the abuse of alcohol relates to coming under its influence, then such should apply to coming under the influence of THC. If you can’t control it, then you shouldn’t use it.

If you’re saying you can control the high, I suppose that’s between you and God.

Of course, absolutely, pot is a performance drug. Even though your experience informed you of a “couch lock effect”, the report from others shows a performance effect. As I mentioned in my first post, the various cannabinoids, in relation to each other greatly determine subjective effect. Further, terpenes modulate THC9. Thin-leafed Sativa varieties with high THC and low CBD increase heart rate and speed up cognitive output- “thought generation.” Indicas (wide-leaf strains) are mostly “couch lock” in effect and may increase appetite. Pot intoxication is not as pleasant as alcohol and the smoker will usually not want to toke more once a certain state is reached. On the other hand, alcohol consumption, the subject will often not know when to quit. Pot is often euphoric but is subject to “set and setting.” It is not a social lubricant either. Pot, if used injudiciously will cause “overthinking”, the existing thoughts come too fast. The pot antidote is sugary drinks or food consumption. People often get tired of all the euphoria so they eat to comfort themselves is my thinking.

Another “performance area” of pot usage is with the “act of marriage” (sex). This of course is very subjectively managed again under the concept of “set and setting.” What I am saying is that it is not automatic. A bad mindset and/or poor setting is a recipe for unresponsiveness and failure of the intended action. Conversely, when everything aligns properly, definitive enhancement.

[Andrew K.]

We’ve been over this before: Yes, you can be okay with alcohol and oppose marijuana—reasonably.

We have been down the road, and you can adopt the double standard, but the arguments for marijuana are interchangeable with alcohol.