The Gospel Coalition: Can God Save a Fundamentalist School?

Why are we asking someone to enumerate specifics on why “ccm” is wrong? Sorry, but that approach is immature.

The Biblical model according to Ephesians 5, Philippians 1, Colossians 1 and Hebrews 5 is to prove things that are excellent and well-pleasing unto the Lord.

The onus is on all of us to demonstrate Biblically how our worship, music, etc. honors God.

[KD Merrill]

The Biblical model according to Ephesians 5, Philippians 1, Colossians 1 and Hebrews 5 is to prove things that are excellent and well-pleasing unto the Lord.

The onus is on all of us to demonstrate Biblically how our worship, music, etc. honors God.

OK, I’ll bite. How do we demonstrate biblically that traditional music and worship honor God?

[Don Johnson] Joel, on what basis did you teach these musicians that their approach was not a Biblical approach to worship. Please share with us the scriptural support you used to make your case.

It is striking that you want to make the case that there is a Biblical line that must not be crossed, yet you criticize those who draw that line in a different place than you do.

Don, he already did that.

[Joel Shaffer]

By the way, at our church, there were a few musicians that wanted to move towards that direction, with long guitar licks(where the focus became on the musician rather than Jesus), dimming lights to “create just the right atmosphere,” (trying to manipulate emotions) and etc….. The Elders in our church including myself were able to teach these certain musicians that this was not a Biblical approach to worship. It is not at all “anything goes” at our church, despite the fact that our church utilizes many CCM praise and worship songs……….

Mark,

I’m not asking you to dissect my life in a blogpost. I’m asking you to point out sin. Egads, man - I’ve probably written over twenty pages of stuff on music since the NIU issue came up in March or whenever it was. It’s not like I’m asking you to read my mind.

As for the books - Yes, I know. I have Makujina, Aniol, Fisher, and others. I’ve said that I’ve read them, and I’ve marked some of the copies up heavily. I’m reading Aniol’s book now - and I disagree with it. But at least I have laid out Scriptural principles for what I do.

Numerous times people have tried here on SI to understand what criteria, standards, etc. others use for their musical choices and have found that this road often leads no where except to the medicine cabinet for an aspirin. So, I’m going to offer a suggestion to those defending CCM.

Take some time to select one song (maybe it’s one you sing in church this morning) that you think qualifies as CCM, provide a link to a video or audio file that best represents how you sing/play that song, then list all the criteria you used to determine the propriety of that song for use in worship to God. And, the criteria cannot address the text only; it must also address the tune.

Now, before someone jumps in and says “the other side needs to do that too” I will also say that my suggestion works both ways. However, I haven’t heard anyone say that hymns are out of bounds, so it doesn’t seem that the “hymns” people need to convince others of their propriety. But, it probably would be helpful if one of the more traditional people would post a link to a hymn and provide the criteria by which they chose that hymn.

Anyone game for this little exercise?

in Ukraine, and our singing group led us in this song. This is not us singing, but it’s very similar as we used the same sound track.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cmptu-kgf3M

It has a beat, but it’s one that is just so effective in reflecting and “letting out” the strength of conviction of truth we are singing. It moves me to tears, it’s so true. And I do admit to being a little bit of a hand raiser when we sing. Not as much as the previously-charasmatic grandmas in our church, but …

1 Jesus, You showed me the way of salvation:

The road of faith , the road of love.

2 You came to me from heaven and eyes were opened, my eyes.

3 I was searching only for earthly pleasures

I wished happiness only to myself.

But you came for this reason, to change my destiny.

4 You’re Alpha and Omega, I believe in You.

5 My Lord, King Jesus, before You I bow in prayer,

I know—You only are our Savior, Christ, God’s Son.

6 You suffered for the sins of the world, died on the Golgotha cross.

But then, on the third day, You rose, justifying me for the kingdom of heaven

7 Why, you came to give the captives freedom, the hungry—food, healing to the sick.

8 Bread broken, Jesus, you taught us to forgive, to forgive others.

9 You’re Alpha and Omega, I believe in You.

10 My Lord, King Jesus, before You I bow in prayer,

I know—You only are our Savior, Christ, God’s Son.

11 You suffered for the sins of the world, died on the Golgotha cross.

But then, on the third day, You rose, justifying me for the kingdom of heaven

12 My Lord, King Jesus, before You I bow in prayer,

I know—You only are our Savior, Christ, God’s Son.

13 You suffered for the sins of the world, died on the Golgotha cross.

But then, on the third day, You rose, justifying me for the kingdom of heaven.

Brenda, you and Don and KD are missing the point. Of course those of us who use contemporary music have standards! We (as others have pointed out) have music philosophies, standards, guidelines, etc, that we believe are based on biblical principles. We don’t have an “anything goes” approach to music in the church. And we don’t even object that your standards are “stricter” than ours (or however you want to characterize them).

Again, the whole point of the OP and of Bob Bixby’s article is that SOME (I might even say many, but certainly not all) people who have these standards want to elevate them to the level of the fundamental (or if not the same level, at least one level down) doctrines of Scripture and separate from others who do not share those same beliefs. So the onus is on them to prove from Scripture why these music standards should rise to that level of importance and result in separation from those who do not share those standards. And I have never been convinced by Scripture (and in fact, from Scripture have been convinced of a broader approach to music) that this should be the case.

But I haven’t seen anyone accusing anyone else of not having any standards. I’ve noticed a lot of people not understanding other people’s standards or not taking the time to carefully and calmly explain their own standards, but there have not been any accusations according to my recollection regarding “no standards” at all.

Anne, thanks for providing a song (and especially the translation). Do you have any further criteria by which you determine the tune or setting to make it appropriate for your church? If not, that’s fine. This isn’t a test — nobody passes or fails. This is just an exercise in trying to understand each other.

[Brenda T]

Anne, thanks for providing a song (and especially the translation). Do you have any further criteria by which you determine the tune or setting to make it appropriate for your church? If not, that’s fine. This isn’t a test — nobody passes or fails. This is just an exercise in trying to understand each other.

Anne, I understand, I’m not involved in choosing songs at my church either.

I’ll give an example from our service this morning of a song our organist played while the bread was being served for communion. She played a song written by Steve Pettit. Now, I know many wouldn’t consider this to be CCM by any stretch of the imagination, but I have heard some in music debates elsewhere who bash anything and everything by Pettit, so that’s why I’m throwing this out here.

I think this song has lyrics that are true to the Word of God and simple enough that any Christian in any stage of spiritual maturity could sing it, understand what they are singing, and be edified by it. Unfortunately, we didn’t have the words printed for people in the pew. I was familiar enough with the song to be able to ponder the words, but I wished others would have been able to do likewise. As I recall, we’ve only sung it in church once in the past 7 years, so that’s why I doubt others were familiar with the words. As far as the tune (as in the melody of the song, not the accompaniment you’ll here on the audio), it was played on a pipe organ in a manner that facilitated this time of considering Christ’s sacrifice on the cross for our sins. It lent itself to an atmosphere fitting a service of reverence and remembrance where the focus was on Christ and not the person playing the song. In other words, the organist didn’t pull all the stops out. But, neither did she play it in a sentimental (think schmaltzy) manner which caused us to think about ourselves more than Christ.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0mV-dRkpO_8

Joel said there were Biblical standards that he and the other elders taught the musicians about why certain of their desires musically were not Biblically appropriate. I really am interested in the specific passages, principles, doctrines actually tell them where to draw the line.

I am quite sure you know pretty well the Biblical principles we on the other side would apply. What I am curious to see is how Joel’s or your reasoning is actually different. You say your approach is not “anything goes” . Great. Show how you Biblically come to that position. It would seem to me to be an extremely interesting exercise.

OK, I’ll bite. How do we demonstrate biblically that traditional music and worship honor God?

Red herring-like question, Dave. It’s incumbent on all believers to provide at the very least, Biblical principles to ensure that their approach is well-pleasing to God. I humbly submit this over-simplified approach:

1) What is the prime objective? If it is the furtherance of the Gospel of the grace of God, then the emphasis/focus is off and it at least needs to be questioned. If it is the overarching glory of God (Rev 14), which includes the furtherance of the Gospel, I can proceed.

2) Applying Biblical principles regarding holiness and worldiness to anything produced by the culture (furthermore, does the culture itself support/condone Biblical values?). Maybe I’m off here, but I find it instructive that the Israelites, who, according to 1 Cor 10:13 are an example to us, were never encouraged by God to adopt heathen culture as part of their worship practices. If it passes this test straight up, I still need to consider the associations involved, based on passages such as Ephesians 5.

3) Regarding music in particular, because it communications on an emotional level, the believer needs to apply Biblical principles concerning communication (Eph 4:29, Phil 4:8). If the music connects with, supports emotions/affections that honor Christ, it passes the test. If it does otherwise (intentionally or not!), it needs to be rejected. I’d also submit that if the music/worship style has its roots in a style that does not support Biblically-sound emotions/affections, it should at the very least be questioned.

I’m not a scholar, don’t have a degree in anything and certainly don’t claim to have all the answers; consequently, I am interested to hear your approach.

[Joel Shaffer]

By the way, at our church, there were a few musicians that wanted to move towards that direction, with long guitar licks(where the focus became on the musician rather than Jesus), dimming lights to “create just the right atmosphere,” (trying to manipulate emotions) and etc…..

But apparently, there’s more. Hence the “etc.” What is included in the “etc.” Is it Biblical? Or are they arbitrary? Furthermore, isn’t the comment about “long guitar licks” rather subjective? Who determines that/when the focus moves off of Jesus on to the musician?

i think most everyone agrees with your standards

i think the issues seem to be

1) there’s no one consensus on what does or does not constitute “worldliness”

2) worship and emotions is a somewhat subjective thing

I meant to say “thanks” to Greg Long for joining in the conversation earlier. I believe there was another thread on here where you and Dr. Bauder were having a conversation about music being a fundamental. And, as I recall, at that time you stated you didn’t understand what Kevin was saying and it seems from your comment here today that you either still don’t understand or that you simply disagree with Dr. Bauder, but I have no desire to re-hash that on this thread — that’s between you two fellas. My intent with the “exercise” question was not to state whether music is a fundamental or not nor was it to discuss separation. Yeah, I know I’ve strayed from the OP, it just seemed like things were getting a little “hot” as in tense, so I admit to wanting to throw cold water on some people.

By the way, thanks also for giving your church name along with your post. I’ve found a song from one of your church services (you guys must be way higher tech than my church, because we don’t have cameras or post things on vimeo; we don’t even post mp3s of our sermons). Anyway, if you’d be so kind as to jump back in the conversation and comment on this video from your church, that would be helpful. I believe you’ve said earlier that one of your standards for choosing music is that it be joyful. Well, this song certainly mentions joy and the singers appear to be happy. Would you care to add any other criteria that was used in selecting this song? It’s certainly not a CCM song, but it is a traditional song sung in what some would call a CCM style. I’m listening, if you’d care to elaborate on why the song was sung in this style.

http://vimeo.com/58382038

[Mark_Smith]

In answer to your post I thought of this:

1 Kings 15:9-14 (ESV)
9 In the twentieth year of Jeroboam king of Israel, Asa began to reign over Judah,
10 and he reigned forty-one years in Jerusalem. His mother’s name was Maacah the daughter of Abishalom.
11 And Asa did what was right in the eyes of the LORD, as David his father had done.
12 He put away the male cult prostitutes out of the land and removed all the idols that his fathers had made.
13 He also removed Maacah his mother from being queen mother because she had made an abominable image for Asherah. And Asa cut down her image and burned it at the brook Kidron.
14 But the high places were not taken away. Nevertheless, the heart of Asa was wholly true to the LORD all his days.

You jest that if using CCM is clearly so wrong then I ought to be able to show why it is sinful. Whether it is sinful depends upon many things. What you are doing probably isn’t. Look at Asa above. His mother made an idol. He saw what it was and removed it. Yet, he didn’t remove the high places? Why? Do we really know? His heart was wholly after the LORD but he kept the high places. Was he sinning in keeping the high places? The high places were aberrant worship. It seemed good to Asa, and others. But it wasn’t right in God’s eyes. I contend that CCM is based on worldly principles, feeding the desires of the ears, the baser nature in us, etc. Is that a proper tool to use to worship God?

Mark,

Welcome to SI. I am usually just a lurker but jump in from time to time. Your post reminds me of why I have left Fundyism. You could apply these verses to the kind of cereal you choose to eat or the brand of car you prefer to drive. It is nothing but gobbledygook. This is the kind of strained application and theological gymnastics that I am so glad to be done with.

What’s funny is that those who use CCM or non traditional worship styles do not say that the traditionalists are “wrong” or they are “in sin”. They might say that if someone prefers traditional they should go to such and such church. I sat in deacon’s meetings at my old Fundy church and listened to men lament individuals, churches, or missionaries who had “gone liberal” based mainly upon worship styles. There is only one side of this argument who claims to be speaking for God and wresting Scripture to try and prove the point.

Matthew