The Gospel Coalition: Can God Save a Fundamentalist School?

I think I agree with the conclusions, but there is oversimplification. Others have mentioned that a paradigm shift such as has been happening there is going to strip the gears out of the transmission for a lot of people.

Certainly, there is a “heavy-handedness” to how things were done. That doesn’t tend to engender trust to people who want God’s best for their kids. Music isn’t the only issue there, as Olson himself would say.

To be honest, NIU lost Lou when they went away from KJVO. You aren’t going to get anything but negativity there.

I would agree that those who endorse what NIU is doing are going to have to put their money where their mouth is.

[Jay]

Honestly, I don’t really expect NIU to survive. Yesterday, I saw that Lou Martuneac said that NIU should receive no “benefit of the doubt anymore”. I’ve seen similar statements in different places by others that make it clear they will not support NIU at all any more in any way because of the changes they’ve made over the last few years.

Mike Durning, Dr. Aniol, and others in the ‘cultural’ / ‘traditional’ IFB seem to have elevated traditional music to to the point where separation is necessary over it, so I don’t think they’ll be interested in helping Northland without changing the school to suit their goals and views. If attendance at traditional IFB bastions like BJU is down, which it appears to be, then I doubt highly that Pastors will send their church families towards a college that is largely perceived as having ‘left’ Fundamentalism when there are schools that are still solidly ‘Fundamental’ (whatever that means) to support. I don’t think that any conservative evangelicals are seriously interested in helping the school because they’d rather steer their students to TMC, TMS, SBTS or other schools that they know better. So I really don’t see any ‘hope’ for the school, but I’ve been wrong before.

That being said, God is great and mighty. Maybe He will intervene and make a way where I don’t see it. I hope He does, because NIU closing it’s doors would be a tragedy - not just for ‘Fundamentalists’ or ‘Conservative Evangelicals’, but for the Body of Christ. And that, I think, is something we can all agree on.

that are struggling to survive, I’m in the ‘throw the baby out with the bathwater’ camp. Maintaining Christian colleges that no longer have resources or a market is not a hill we should be dying on. Not when there are other perfectly viable alternatives, such as remaining at home with family and church, and learning a trade/skill at a much lower cost to everyone. Job training should not be a function of the church, nor should churches spend money and resources training people for vocations other than full time ministry.

That’s my story and I’m stickin’ to it.

A brother in the Lord PMd me and mentioned that Mike Durning isn’t active in the music discussions. I meant Mike Harding, not Mike Durning. My apologies to both men.

Why do you want Northland to move to an area where it would compete with Maranatha BBC and the van Geldern School of Ministry?

[iKuyper]

My suggestion for Northland is to relocate. Move closer to a major city—closest is Milwaukee. This will create more ministry opportunities and students will have more recreational options—what’s there to do in Dunbar? The Milwaukee-Chicago metropolitan area could use a conservative Christian undergraduate school. The only one in the area would be Moody. Or….maybe partner or MERGE with Moody! MBI is theologically conservative, they have a balanced approach to music (they have a sacred music major!), and have good ties with other conservative evangelical institutions. Moody Bible Institute of Milwaukee! I could see this happening!

NIU, hire me for president! =)

[Rob Fall]

Why do you want Northland to move to an area where it would compete with Maranatha BBC and the van Geldern School of Ministry?

[iKuyper]

My suggestion for Northland is to relocate. Move closer to a major city—closest is Milwaukee. This will create more ministry opportunities and students will have more recreational options—what’s there to do in Dunbar? The Milwaukee-Chicago metropolitan area could use a conservative Christian undergraduate school. The only one in the area would be Moody. Or….maybe partner or MERGE with Moody! MBI is theologically conservative, they have a balanced approach to music (they have a sacred music major!), and have good ties with other conservative evangelical institutions. Moody Bible Institute of Milwaukee! I could see this happening!

NIU, hire me for president! =)

Jay, you said “Mike Harding, Dr. Aniol, and others in the ‘cultural’ / ‘traditional’ IFB seem to have elevated traditional music to to the point where separation is necessary over it, … . “

The author of the article this conversation is about stated himself he knew he himself was going to separate from his own alma mater because of things he didn’t agree with. This nasty ‘lil separation issue is not just a Fundy thing. Correct?

Ron Bean, you said, “To repeat an illustration, we’re in a leaky boat and no one wants to admit the reality.” Agreed! Regarding the progressive side, as this article discusses how NIU is now more gospel centered and now there is more hope than ever. Yes, the ship is leaking, badly, but they are feeling great about how things are going. The ship may be in dire straights, the possibility of sinking is in play, but Hey, at least NIU is now “Gospel Centered!”

I have yet to see barely, if any recognition on their part about the importance of constituency management and how maybe, just maybe NIU did not do this well. You simply can’t be one way for over 30 years, make a fairly quick change away from that and expect everyone to trust you and be on board. There is almost no recognition of that simple fact that applies to just about Any organization, not just ‘ol stuffy Fundy places. There is no admitting that the “Redeemed” rock band fiasco had anything to do with NIU’s constituency questioning their credibility. Instead it is stated that traditionalists and fundamentalists, including Dr. Ollila, got it all wrong all those years, but now we are on the right track.

Those pesky little realities like an already divided, and now sure to shrink even substantially further constituency, that NIU is nowhere close to having enough traction yet with the “Gospel Centered” evangelical world, and that it is losing big money fast and downsizing again … . . Nope, not a word! Instead we hear, “Yeah, NIU is now more Gospel Centered than ever! Yeah for us!” Meanwhile the ship is dead in the water.

And to the Fundamentalist side of the issue, the progressive side just might have some fresh ideas worth incorporating that don’t require you to compromise.

handerson, agree with your post completely about the unhelpful rhetoric coming from this TGC article. As I questioned above, if this is the new and improved “Gospel Centered” attitude being celebrated, why should NIU’s constituency continue to support it?? If the progressive side is perfectly happy to recklessly poke NIU’s supporters in the eye telling them you were wrong, we are now right. If that is now the new and “improved” NIU, why should their constituency continue to care?

Jay,

From my readings of Harding and Aniol, they are not out to preserve traditional music, but they do want to approach music and worship from a conservative place. There is a difference, and it is important. Roger Scruton has some good writings on conservatism and Al Mohler’s interview with him helps to boil the notion down. It is worth understanding and pointing out the difference.

From my readings of Harding and Aniol, they do not seem to express any need to have NI be transformed into their image in order for them to (for example) speak there (as a means of help). I may be wrong, but that seems a rather long leap on your part to make. If Scott feels at home with his involvement with the SBC, in the fashion in which he is operating among them, he probably would offer help to NI if they cared to have a dissenting voice. I got the sense from Mike Harding’s writings here that he would be willing to help too.

I do not mean to speak for them, but to say only that from public knowledge of them and what they have written, your statement about them seems somewhat untoward. I may be out of line.

Honestly, my own response to things like their traveling praise band thing is at first mocking because I saw this kind of thing before. I have to change my kneejerk response and pull out the jerk part. Ask Greg Linscott, getting me to be less of a jerk is only possible through God’s work.

[Jay]

Honestly, I don’t really expect NIU to survive. Yesterday, I saw that Lou Martuneac said that NIU should receive no “benefit of the doubt anymore”. I’ve seen similar statements in different places by others that make it clear they will not support NIU at all any more in any way because of the changes they’ve made over the last few years.

Mike Harding, Dr. Aniol, and others in the ‘cultural’ / ‘traditional’ IFB seem to have elevated traditional music to to the point where separation is necessary over it, so I don’t think they’ll be interested in helping Northland without changing the school to suit their goals and views. If attendance at traditional IFB bastions like BJU is down, which it appears to be, then I doubt highly that Pastors will send their church families towards a college that is largely perceived as having ‘left’ Fundamentalism when there are schools that are still solidly ‘Fundamental’ (whatever that means) to support. I don’t think that any conservative evangelicals are seriously interested in helping the school because they’d rather steer their students to TMC, TMS, SBTS or other schools that they know better. So I really don’t see any ‘hope’ for the school, but I’ve been wrong before.

That being said, God is great and mighty. Maybe He will intervene and make a way where I don’t see it. I hope He does, because NIU closing it’s doors would be a tragedy - not just for ‘Fundamentalists’ or ‘Conservative Evangelicals’, but for the Body of Christ. And that, I think, is something we can all agree on.

g

Edited to correct “Durning” to “Harding.”

[mmartin]

Jay, you said “Mike Harding, Dr. Aniol, and others in the ‘cultural’ / ‘traditional’ IFB seem to have elevated traditional music to to the point where separation is necessary over it, … . “

The author of the article this conversation is about stated himself he knew he himself was going to separate from his own alma mater because of things he didn’t agree with. This nasty ‘lil separation issue is not just a Fundy thing. Correct?

Dr. Bruno said:

By the time I arrived on campus as a freshman in 1998, Northland was a pretty separated place. Most types of modern music were off limits, as were most movies, TV shows, and other popular media. In the classroom, we read books by authors like John Piper, R. C. Sproul, and John MacArthur, but they always came with a disclaimer. I spent my last two years on campus wrestling over the theological and exegetical foundations for these practices and felt like we needed to be somewhere more biblically and theologically robust. So in the summer of 2002, we packed up and moved to Minneapolis, where I started the apprenticeship program at Bethlehem Baptist Church.

But I knew this move would lead to a separation from Northland. While I certainly maintained relationships with many on campus, I assumed that I would never be able to have close ties to my alma mater. There was much about Northland to love: a unique emphasis on servant leadership; a humble administration, faculty, and staff; a strong love for the Word of God; and a radical commitment to world missions. But it seemed like the strict separatism and all that went along with it would keep me, and many other alumni from my generation, from having close relationships with Northland.

So you are correct - Bruno’s studies moved him to the point where NIU would have had to separate themselves from him over the music stuff. Then NIU went through the changes that everyone is so worked up and those changes actually led them back to the point where the two sides were no longer ‘estranged’.

My point is that there are men that feel so strongly about this topic of worship style that they will not tolerate deviations from the worship standards that they expect and believe in. They will separate themselves from us, and they will do so because we are ‘in sin’ and ‘need to repent’ (the only real ground for separation). Mike Harding has said that he’s one of those men. Now maybe I’m mistaken and he would gladly help NIU, but I think he would only do so with the expectation that he’s going to have to force the school back to the ‘conservative worship’ position. I am 99% sure Dr. Aniol would feel the same way. There are others, I’m sure, and they would help, but only if they can re-open the chasm between Dr. Bruno and myself and themselves / the hypothetically ‘conservative’ Northland. That’s sad.

they are not out to preserve traditional music, but they do want to approach music and worship from a conservative place.

And see, this is where I think they go wrong. They’re so concerned about approaching music from a conservative place that they can’t see the Biblical support for those of us who are ‘not conservative’, and I think THAT leads to the attitude that Bob Bixby was commenting on. That’s why I’m discussing music on this forum. I think there’s Biblical support for my position, and that arguing music from a love of ‘conservativism’ is a waste of time, funds, and energy. It could even be a form of idolatry.

No, I’m not saying RAM, Aniol, Harding, or anyone else is idolatrous, in case someone is wondering. For some, the form of the music and worship is more important than the gospel itself or God’s people. That’s wrong.

I’ve read Dr. Aniol’s blog and spoken with him several times; I asked him a pointed question about this very thing when he was on here a few weeks ago that I don’t believe he answered. I availed myself of his (then-free) Kindle book a couple days ago and am slowly working my way through it, but I’m finding a lot of areas where we don’t agree on basic and foundational stuff - in part because he keeps going back to being ‘conservative’ in culture. So I don’t think that I’m ignorant of what he’s writing, although I haven’t finished his book yet.

We’re not called to be “culturally” or “conservative” anything. We’re slaves of God. That’s going to make us liberal in some areas and conservative in other areas.

edited - I revised and expanded this post in a couple of places after this post was up.

[mmartin]

Instead it is stated that traditionalists and fundamentalists, including Dr. Ollila, got it all wrong all those years, but now we are on the right track.

Can somebody please direct me to where this statement, or anything remotely similar, was ever made by NIU, or Dr. Olson?

Please.

[mmartin]

Jay, you said “Mike Harding, Dr. Aniol, and others in the ‘cultural’ / ‘traditional’ IFB seem to have elevated traditional music to to the point where separation is necessary over it, … . “

The author of the article this conversation is about stated himself he knew he himself was going to separate from his own alma mater because of things he didn’t agree with. This nasty ‘lil separation issue is not just a Fundy thing. Correct?

This is the second time you’ve made this point.

Chris Bruno stated that he knew that the fundamentalists (NIU) would separate from him for following God’s direction and leading in his life (Piper’s school).

He did not say that he was separating from them.

This separation was a one way street. And there are hundreds and hundreds of NIU alumni that have experienced this one way separation. And we were saddened by it but knew that we still had to obey God’s leading in our lives even if it meant that our alma mater and others would separate from us.

Please try to read more carefully.

Blessings!

Don,

I’m not sure how that can be accurate. I mean, if Bruno consciously chooses to go in a different direction than those things stated in Northland’s documents, principled though it may be, how can he not effectively said to be separating from them?

If I would say to the Minnesota Baptist Association, “Our church is not going to make immersion a litmus test for church membership and fellowship any more, because we believe that is not ‘gospel centered,’” well, I suspect they would take formal steps to separate from us (as they should). But I cannot legitimately say that it was a “one way street.” I knew (or certainly should have known) where they stood going in, and I knew my actions would have consequences. Changing the policy, even if I am convinced I am right, in effect began a process of separation from the Baptist Association.

Greg,

The issue is secondary separation. One group separates over it; the other group doesn’t.

The separation is one way.

http://friendsofnorthland.com/letter#signature

Affirm your support of Northland’s new direction.

Todd Himes,

I’m not saying that NIU and/or Dr. Olson themselves have said that. It is definitely what Bruno’s article implies and the general attitude very often communicated by the progressive side.

Don (& indirectly Jay),

Bruno said in his article, “So in the summer of 2002, we packed up and moved to Minneapolis, where I started the apprenticeship program at Bethlehem Baptist Church.
But I knew this move would lead to a separation from Northland. While I certainly maintained relationships with many on campus, I assumed that I would never be able to have close ties to my alma mater.”

The content and context of the paragraph suggests it was Bruno who chose to separate from NIU because he didn’t agree with their stand on certain things. He is not saying that it was NIU who separated from him. He was the one who moved, not NIU. So, yes he did in fact say he was separating from them. Yes, I did read it carefully. Greg Linscott’s point on this particular topic is correct.