The Gospel Coalition: Can God Save a Fundamentalist School?
[Don Sailer]Maranatha had the foresight and independence to seek regional accreditation years before NIU and BJU.
NIU and BJU are now paying for this lack of common sense.
I started my education at MBBC years ago, shortly after they attained regional accreditation. Wise mentors advised me that was the way to go. And they were right, as years later, when I went to finish my undergrad at a secular school, and then a regionally accredited evangelical school, that was the only reason my MBBC credits were accepted.
Whether we want to admit it or not, accreditation brings students in.
And, if your church is like my church, in which we are beginning to advise our graduating youth to pursue not only accredited degrees, but practical, degrees that will help within a secular workforce, the list of Bible colleges that provide both is exceptionally short…
Everyone wants a revolution. No one wants to do the dishes.
[mmartin]Todd Himes,
I’m not saying that NIU and/or Dr. Olson themselves have said that. It is definitely what Bruno’s article implies and the general attitude very often communicated by the progressive side.
I read the article. Maybe I struggle with reading comprehension, but that’s not the tone I read. Bruno’s not saying that NIU did it all wrong. If he were saying that, how stupid would he look for picking NIU in the first place?
He’s saying that they did some things wrong. I could say the same about Maranatha - I picked them. There were things that happened to me and others that were wrong; but, MBBC did a lot of things right.
As for general attitude. REALLY? The general attitude I get is that we want to make things better. I could say that about Northland, Maranatha, or even the evangelical school I currently attend. What many of us are tired of, is the fact that when it’s suggested that some things need to be corrected in order to make [insert school here] better, some fundamentalists [a camp in which I count myself] dig in their heels and refuse to admit any wrongdoing.
And guess what? Progressives do the same thing sometimes. Witness Cedarville. Both sides need to knock it off.
Everyone wants a revolution. No one wants to do the dishes.
What you describe is what I figured the average person here was doing. That is why it seems so innocuous.
[Mark_Smith]What you describe is what I figured the average person here was doing. That is why it seems so innocuous.
So if I’m wrong (as in - I’m in sin), then bear witness of the wrong. Tell me what we do that is contrary to Scripture or God’s nature.
If you (or anyone else) would separate from me over this, then that ought to be fairly easy to do. If not, then why are we even having this discussion?
Not “I don’t like it”
Not “Electric Guitars/Drums are evil”
Not “Choirs / Piano is better”
Not “It reminds me of rock music I used to listen to”
What is sinful?
"Our task today is to tell people — who no longer know what sin is...no longer see themselves as sinners, and no longer have room for these categories — that Christ died for sins of which they do not think they’re guilty." - David Wells
In answer to your post I thought of this:
1 Kings 15:9-14 (ESV)
9 In the twentieth year of Jeroboam king of Israel, Asa began to reign over Judah,
10 and he reigned forty-one years in Jerusalem. His mother’s name was Maacah the daughter of Abishalom.
11 And Asa did what was right in the eyes of the LORD, as David his father had done.
12 He put away the male cult prostitutes out of the land and removed all the idols that his fathers had made.
13 He also removed Maacah his mother from being queen mother because she had made an abominable image for Asherah. And Asa cut down her image and burned it at the brook Kidron.
14 But the high places were not taken away. Nevertheless, the heart of Asa was wholly true to the LORD all his days.
You jest that if using CCM is clearly so wrong then I ought to be able to show why it is sinful. Whether it is sinful depends upon many things. What you are doing probably isn’t. Look at Asa above. His mother made an idol. He saw what it was and removed it. Yet, he didn’t remove the high places? Why? Do we really know? His heart was wholly after the LORD but he kept the high places. Was he sinning in keeping the high places? The high places were aberrant worship. It seemed good to Asa, and others. But it wasn’t right in God’s eyes. I contend that CCM is based on worldly principles, feeding the desires of the ears, the baser nature in us, etc. Is that a proper tool to use to worship God?
You jest that if using CCM is clearly so wrong then I ought to be able to show why it is sinful. Whether it is sinful depends upon many things. What you are doing probably isn’t. Look at Asa above. His mother made an idol. He saw what it was and removed it.
I wasn’t jesting. I’m deadly serious. If I’m introducing believers to sin, then I need to know about it and need to make changes. I know that may seem hard to fathom, but it’s really not. If it’s sin - then say so. And say why. If it’s sinful, then there should be no problem or hesitation in lining it up with violations of God’s Word. But don’t waste my time by saying it’s sin when you have no Scriptural warrant for that.
Furthermore, if you are seriously arguing that the introduction of modern music is the same as Asa’s failure to cleanse OT Israel from idols, then we are wasting our time talking.
"Our task today is to tell people — who no longer know what sin is...no longer see themselves as sinners, and no longer have room for these categories — that Christ died for sins of which they do not think they’re guilty." - David Wells
If you’re my brother in the Lord - and I know you are - and I’m in sin, then you have a biblical obligation to point out the sin. So do so. I’m directly asking you to do so as a fellow believer.
"Our task today is to tell people — who no longer know what sin is...no longer see themselves as sinners, and no longer have room for these categories — that Christ died for sins of which they do not think they’re guilty." - David Wells
[Mark_Smith]I frankly am shocked at many of the people at this website. I came here a few weeks ago and as far as I can tell, most of you posting on the fundamentalist threads are simply conservative evangelicals…nothing wrong with that per se. Own it and move on!
So you’ve been a member of S/I since Mon, Apr 29, 2013 …. less than a week! And you have been able to assess that “most … at this website” are not fundamentalists! You are either amazingly insightful or an arrogant fool.
Tip: if you want to be taken seriously you had better have a humble attitude.
Mark can speak for himself, but it seemed to me like he was simply making an observation about the majority of posted comments in the past few weeks. And, well, if you look at the recent topics, there has been a fair amount of what some might call “fundamentalist bashing” in regard to separation and music issues. I’m not necessarily saying there was, but I can see how it could be perceived that way especially if someone had different expectations coming in here.
And, to agree with Jim’s point, a humble attitude would go a long way for everyone around here — including me.
Books have been written on this subject! You want to diagnose your life in a thread post? I am not your personal friend. All I can do is speak generally about the dangers of CCM. Any thoughts on my post about Asa?
The point with Asa was that he had a heart for God yet he didn’t remove the high places. Did he have sin in his heart over that issue?
Thanks for your humble response as well.
I have been reading for about a month. I am honestly shocked. What drew me here was interest in the so called BJU controversies such as the Dr Chuck Phelps issue and the student that was expelled for watching Glee among other things. I started reviewing some anti-BJU websites and was shocked at the venom of people against BJU…mostly alumni! After a while I was reminded of SharperIron and thought I would check it out. I had known of it before but never visited. So, I start looking around and see people criticizing BJU and other schools for holding the line against CCM, for example.
I apologize for posting 3 times in a row, but I wanted to get this out there before Sunday.
Don Johnson mentioned on his blog (that is public info so I hope he doesn’t mind) that a pastor Guy Conn from Fox River Christian Church had been invited to speak at a NIU chapel service in April 2013. The announcement for him gave his church website so I went there. There were many videos including this one of the Easter service this year. I am not attacking this church, only showing the almost inevitable result of going CCM. Keep in mind that almost every evangelical and charismatic church in America would like to do this as well, most simply can’t afford it!
[Mark_Smith]In answer to your post I thought of this:
1 Kings 15:9-14 (ESV)
9 In the twentieth year of Jeroboam king of Israel, Asa began to reign over Judah,
10 and he reigned forty-one years in Jerusalem. His mother’s name was Maacah the daughter of Abishalom.
11 And Asa did what was right in the eyes of the LORD, as David his father had done.
12 He put away the male cult prostitutes out of the land and removed all the idols that his fathers had made.
13 He also removed Maacah his mother from being queen mother because she had made an abominable image for Asherah. And Asa cut down her image and burned it at the brook Kidron.
14 But the high places were not taken away. Nevertheless, the heart of Asa was wholly true to the LORD all his days.You jest that if using CCM is clearly so wrong then I ought to be able to show why it is sinful. Whether it is sinful depends upon many things. What you are doing probably isn’t. Look at Asa above. His mother made an idol. He saw what it was and removed it. Yet, he didn’t remove the high places? Why? Do we really know? His heart was wholly after the LORD but he kept the high places. Was he sinning in keeping the high places? The high places were aberrant worship. It seemed good to Asa, and others. But it wasn’t right in God’s eyes. I contend that CCM is based on worldly principles, feeding the desires of the ears, the baser nature in us, etc. Is that a proper tool to use to worship God?
Mark,
Welcome to SI - it’s great to have you. You are loved in the Lord my brother. I now must make a direct appeal to your thoughts.
As one of the brothers mentioned to you I’ve written a few articles where I attempt to parse out three sub-types within fundamentalism. The article I like the best because of it’s brevity is the one published called “Redux: Lines in the Sand” (something like that) - I think that was 14 months or so ago….I think. I would encourage you to read it not because I’m right - only because many here at SI - while not agreeing with all that I wrote - in the main follow the basic sub-types of Type A, B and C fundamentalists.
Mark actually many of us who are fairly traditional and use some CCM but still use more traditional hymns and such - many of us would say that men like yourself who believe in a more traditional approach and make that a certain standard of music an “absolute” for fellowship, acceptance, etc…..are frankly much more in danger of making certain man-made standards = to the doctrines of scripture - actually you guys are in danger of making or crossing into the field of idolatry - making the title of fundamentalism (and certain again man-made practices)……an idol.
And no - we don’t jest in asking you if you are going to demand a certain standard be accepted as “holiness” per se - you better demonstrate how those standards are directly or at least indirectly tied to Scripture. It amazes me how many who are even called Baptist and/or fundamentalist frankly act like they have Roman Catholic Pontiff authority vis-a-vis an authority constrained by Scripture.
Mark, because you and others have no Scripture to make a certain approach to music methodology in corporate worship “absolute” - to some degree the “application” of this both individually and corporately is a Christian Liberty issue.
One more point - your quote above is even more dangerous than a legalism or pharisaism - Mark you incert your own “feelings” “ideas” into the text and then demand everyone else accept your views on that without Scriptural backing - but you still bring Scriptural authority on your view and slice everyone else out if they cross those lines. You must get to know more people Mark- if you do that you will meet Godly people who use CCM - not feeding their baser nature, fueling sinful desires, scratching ears, etc……
So please - consider this appeal.
Again……welcome to SI Mark!
Straight Ahead!
jt
Dr. Joel Tetreau serves as Senior Pastor, Southeast Valley Bible Church (sevbc.org); Regional Coordinator for IBL West (iblministry.com), Board Member & friend for several different ministries;
[Mark_Smith]I apologize for posting 3 times in a row, but I wanted to get this out there before Sunday.
Don Johnson mentioned on his blog (that is public info so I hope he doesn’t mind) that a pastor Guy Conn from Fox River Christian Church had been invited to speak at a NIU chapel service in April 2013. The announcement for him gave his church website so I went there. There were many videos including this one of the Easter service this year. I am not attacking this church, only showing the almost inevitable result of going CCM. Keep in mind that almost every evangelical and charismatic church in America would like to do this as well, most simply can’t afford it!
I checked out the video of Fox River Christian Church and it kind of reminded me of this. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3RJBd8zE48A Its an awesome parody of a CCM worship service that attempts to be relevant in order to be hip. Within the fundamental churches and even many evangelical churches that I connect with that use CCM music in a praise band, they are not at all wanting to do that nor what Fox River Christian Church does. In fact many are repulsed by it. My friend, could it be that your charismatic background which used CCM style in a manipulative, man-centered, “attempting to be relevant” way, has tainted your outlook against CCM in a worship service so that you believe that most every evangelical is desiring what Fox River Christian Church is doing?
By the way, at our church, there were a few musicians that wanted to move towards that direction, with long guitar licks(where the focus became on the musician rather than Jesus), dimming lights to “create just the right atmosphere,” (trying to manipulate emotions) and etc….. The Elders in our church including myself were able to teach these certain musicians that this was not a Biblical approach to worship. It is not at all “anything goes” at our church, despite the fact that our church utilizes many CCM praise and worship songs……….
[Joel Shaffer]By the way, at our church, there were a few musicians that wanted to move towards that direction, with long guitar licks(where the focus became on the musician rather than Jesus), dimming lights to “create just the right atmosphere,” (trying to manipulate emotions) and etc….. The Elders in our church including myself were able to teach these certain musicians that this was not a Biblical approach to worship. It is not at all “anything goes” at our church, despite the fact that our church utilizes many CCM praise and worship songs……….
Joel, on what basis did you teach these musicians that their approach was not a Biblical approach to worship. Please share with us the scriptural support you used to make your case.
It is striking that you want to make the case that there is a Biblical line that must not be crossed, yet you criticize those who draw that line in a different place than you do.
Maranatha!
Don Johnson
Jer 33.3
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