Bible Colleges a Relic of the Past?

Yes, I absolutely think the classroom experience is best. But if you’re talking sheer pragmatism about ‘what is the best way to get an education’ for a guy that knows he needs more, then most guys I know (especially those who are older than 25) simply can’t afford to pack up and move to a place to go to school, unless it’s within a 50 mile radius or so.

You wrote:

most guys I know (especially those who are older than 25) simply can’t afford to pack up and move to a place to go to school, unless it’s within a 50 mile radius or so

Agreed. I have mortgage and a family. My house is also worth only 60% of what I bought it for 5 years ago, but that is another story …

Online is a blessing to me. My work schedule is also simply too bizarre to accomodate traditional brick and mortar education. I work an 84 week, have one week off, then repeat. Not conducive to a real classroom experience …

Jay is correct, Yes their is open source things and what not, but the back end requirements still bring a cost and even though it may be no more expensive then maintaining classroom buildings for classes, most colleges are not going to drop that side of things nor should they, so that is irrelevant. Most people have little to no idea the costs of buisiness level IT. companies like Blackbaud and Dell and whatnot charge businesses and schools a hefty premium just because I can. And if a college is using a hosting site like Vimeo to host classroom content, they are probably paying Vimeo a decent premium if they are abiding by the terms of use agreement, and probably more if they are setting up secure portals (or anyone on vimeo can watch their classes for free.) Everything costs money Even using something open source like Moodle requires finances to utilize it. And to use it professionally it costs money to design interfaces and establish databases store secure and back up information, not to mention the secure the disbursement of information

My point was not to talk about that stuff anyway. I mentioned it to show the fact that remote students make subsidization through other costs impossible, which will cause issues for many colleges.

Paynen:

I hear you but don’t buy it. How can anybody buy the idea that Liberty’s bi-zillion online students, for example, cost the school more than actually housing them all on-site?

Tyler hit the point I was trying to make. It’s not that online means schools close their campus, but that they don’t need to expand their campus in order to expand their student body.

Yes, I absolutely think the classroom experience is best.

I don’t know. I have taken both in-person modules and online classes at the graduate level. They each have their strengths and weaknesses. I would say that the online environment has allowed a lot more interaction with fellow students than in-person modules have tended to (at least in my experience). Online environments are less personal in information delivery from professor to student, yes- but on the other hand, the information delivery is less-condensed than getting a whole semester’s worth of lectures in the span of a week.

I am also finding that the personal access I have to my online profs at BBS is at least as good as I had with the profs at Central- even after a class with a specific professor is done.

I have also joined the world of online learning as I am pursuing an EdD degree at SBTS. It is a hybrid program of distance and on-site learning. Each “semester” we have two six-credit-hour classes. The homework (which is reading, posting on discussion boards, and writing papers) starts about 1-2 months before the on-campus time. We are on campus for one week, with one class Monday - Wednesday, 8:30am - 8:00pm, and the second class Thursday through Saturday, same time (with early out on Saturday). Then assignments continue a couple of months after the on campus time.

I think it is the best of both worlds. There is no way I could do this if I had to relocate, so the online component is wonderful. And yet, the on campus time has been invaluable for “face-time” with both fellow students and the professors. The on-campus classtime is a combination of lecture, group project time, and interaction with the professor over assignments (critique of papers, etc.). And lots of lively discussion over meals!

Dave„

I could certainly buy into a mixed use package - perhaps the best of both worlds. My online experience has been that I am teaching myself, and paying a lot of money to have someone grade my papers. No instruction, nearly useless interaction with other students via discussion boards. I got a BA brick and mortar. My M.Ed was done on site in summer modules. I’m currently working on an Ed.D through Liberty that is all online except three one week modules.

This is a wonderful time of being able to learn at home with little cost. Currently, I am taking a MOOC (Massively Open Online Course) at Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary – their graduate Hermeneutics course. My only cost was for the books (about $50). Quizzes and tests are done online by using Moodle. (They say that there will be the possibility of obtaining credit for the course with some additional work and I assume testing. But I am retired and in my 60’s so I don’t need credit for classes.)

In addition, SEBTS and some other seminaries have lecture videos or audio files available to the public on vimeo, youtube, or their own websites. Please note that these are not fundamentalist seminaries — which as far as I know have not made online lectures freely available.

Here are some that I have found:

Master’s Seminary

http://vimeo.com/mastersseminary/videos/sort:date/format:thumbnail

Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary

http://vimeo.com/coursevideos/videos/page:1/sort:alphabetical/format:th…

BIOLA

http://open.biola.edu/collections

Bible Training Institute

http://www.biblicaltraining.org/allclasses

Covenant Theological Seminary

http://www.covenantseminary.edu/resources/

[TylerR]

Paynen:

I hear you but don’t buy it. How can anybody buy the idea that Liberty’s bi-zillion online students, for example, cost the school more than actually housing them all on-site?

Oh I’m not saying that at all, most of all the costs will be upfront, I mean the cost of maintaining all that equipment will be expensive, but as chip said no more expensive then maintaining campus equipment. Online education will be profitable for any college that implements it correctly, but the beginning financial cost still needs to fit into a yearly budget.

And on the second point my thoughts weren’t that they should not do online education, their is definitely use for a mix. I’m not saying its more expensive to host them online with that either. Lets see if I can explain it. Everything that tuition should cover is not all covered in tuition. Some of those costs are subsidized into other financial areas of the institution like meal plans or room and board. so if you have a student who is paying tuition but not room and board or meal plans part of their tuition is literally being paid by on campus students. For a school like Liberty that probably isn’t a huge deal (eventually if online grows it may be), but smaller schools are going to have to take that into account. They will need to either balance out by no longer subsidizing tuition with other areas of finances. This would cause tuition to sky rocket, but room and board and meal plans and other things would all become cheaper (the cost overall for a student on campus would not change, in fact it may even go down, but would increase the total cost for off campus students). This is probably ethically a good idea, but it could upset some of the powers that be (government and accreditation) because they don’t like rising tuition (but don’t seem to care about other costs, don’t know why.) The other option is to create an online education (fee) which would basically increase online tuition, but it would be under another budget line. This would work similar to the already current forms of subsidization for on campus students.

It is definitely not a reason not to have online education, but it is something schools, especially smaller ones, have to work through and add to that the upfront costs of infrastructure that could explain the time it takes for some schools to get into the online education business. I know Faith has been trying to work towards that end, but due to our size has really been limited in our progress. (though their are hopes and possible evidences that that may change soon.)

I just thought I would throw one more idea into the mix for further thought.

When I went to Covenant Theological Seminary for my M.Div., anyone entering the program was not guaranteed to get the degree even if he satisfactorily completed all the course work. Since this was considered a pastoral degree, the faculty had to meet and agree that the man was truly qualified for pastoral ministry or he would not be awarded the degree. Of course, they also put a cap on the number of students (at least for a time) to insure a good professor-to-student ratio, and they required each student to be in a small prayer group with one of his professors. They also encouraged a lot of interaction between professors and students outside the classroom. So, for example, lunches with professors by myself or with one or two other students was not uncommon.

I know of at least one guy — who attended the same Baptist church as I did and was in the same seminary year — who was denied the M.Div. degree in his third year of study because the faculty was convinced that he was not pastoral material, or at least that he wasn’t qualified for pastoral ministry at that time (an assessment with which, frankly, I agreed, although they never asked my opinion). So they granted him an M.A. in general theological studies for the work he had already done and bid him farewell.

I bring up this point because I wonder how such an assessment could be made without at least some significant “face-time,” as was mentioned earlier, or without a mentoring relationship with a local church pastor (such the Founders Study Center seeks to do). Any thoughts?

Also, what role do you think a seminary should have in making such judgments? Surely they have a right to award degrees — or not — to whomever they wish, but should they be actively seeking to assess the character and qualifications of men for pastoral ministry and determining their granting of degrees based on their assessment? I’d be interested in your feedback.

When I went to Covenant Theological Seminary for my M.Div., anyone entering the program was not guaranteed to get the degree even if he satisfactorily completed all the course work. Since this was considered a pastoral degree, the faculty had to meet and agree that the man was truly qualified for pastoral ministry or he would not be awarded the degree

The Seminary is taking on the functions of the local church here. This is way out of bounds. To be brutally honest, we pay Seminaries to provide us with a product. If the man completed his coursework, he gets the degree.

[Pastork]

I just thought I would throw one more idea into the mix for further thought.

When I went to Covenant Theological Seminary for my M.Div., anyone entering the program was not guaranteed to get the degree even if he satisfactorily completed all the course work. Since this was considered a pastoral degree, the faculty had to meet and agree that the man was truly qualified for pastoral ministry or he would not be awarded the degree. Of course, they also put a cap on the number of students (at least for a time) to insure a good professor-to-student ratio, and they required each student to be in a small prayer group with one of his professors. They also encouraged a lot of interaction between professors and students outside the classroom. So, for example, lunches with professors by myself or with one or two other students was not uncommon.

I know of at least one guy — who attended the same Baptist church as I did and was in the same seminary year — who was denied the M.Div. degree in his third year of study because the faculty was convinced that he was not pastoral material, or at least that he wasn’t qualified for pastoral ministry at that time (an assessment with which, frankly, I agreed, although they never asked my opinion). So they granted him an M.A. in general theological studies for the work he had already done and bid him farewell.

I bring up this point because I wonder how such an assessment could be made without at least some significant “face-time,” as was mentioned earlier, or without a mentoring relationship with a local church pastor (such the Founders Study Center seeks to do). Any thoughts?

Also, what role do you think a seminary should have in making such judgments? Surely they have a right to award degrees — or not — to whomever they wish, but should they be actively seeking to assess the character and qualifications of men for pastoral ministry and determining their granting of degrees based on their assessment? I’d be interested in your feedback.

The issue with that is that its not the professors job to make that decision. the call and qualifications of the pastoral ministry is to be recognized by a local church body, that may be my baptist showing but professors don’t have that power from my theological viewpoint.

I have been told by someone “in the know” that it takes 3-5 years minimum for a college to recoup the upfront costs for adding online learning before there’s even the possibility of it becoming profitable.