Bible Colleges a Relic of the Past?

[Jeff Straub]

[WilliamD]

I think this is the professionalization of the ministry that Piper and Tripp warn about in their books “Brothers we are not Professionals” and “Dangerous Calling.”

Would this be the same John Piper who has an MDiv from Fuller, a doctorate from Germany and started his own seminary in Minneapolis?

JPS

Yes, but so what? Pointing that out doesn’t take away from the fact that Jesus’ way of holistic disciple making is superior to any man-made institution of higher learning. The local church has the God-given potential to plant churches and train pastors organically without the need of a Bible College or seminary. If you have a vested interest in academia because it’s how you make a living, i understand the push back….but the truth is, seminary and college is borrowed methodology and is not necessary. Lloyd-Jones in his book on Revival made reference to the seminary as one of the reasons we have no revival today….it was the professionalization and cold, scientific handling of the Word that has quenched the Spirit. The home grown country preachers that came out of the revivals were scorned by the academic types.

By the way, I’m not advocating ignorance…I’m advocating the church and its leaders becoming so theologically astute that they can reproduce their own leaders and pastors naturally.

[Barry L.]

I agree with Dan’s statement in general; however, I disagree in two specific areas. First, I work in the same Charlotte area as he and find that there, currently, is not a problem with BJU grads being hired. Uptown Charlotte is littered with BJU finance professionals and I know of three seniors from the school who will start work uptown this fall. Now, accreditation for BJU will be an issue going forward, and I am not optimistic about them getting it. I am also not optimistic, and this is the second thing I disagree with Dan, about any fundamental or conservative evangelical Christian college obtaining or keeping their accreditation in the future, unless they are willing to compromise. There is a commitment clause to “social diversity” in accreditation and I am guessing that it will include sexual preferences here in the near future.

I don’t think we are really that far apart on this, Barry. I think both of our perspectives on the viability with BJ grads is purely anecdotal. We have some very successful BJ grads in our church and others I know around town. But many of them will tell me that it has been a burden at times. (And I speak of one who would GLADLY exchange my undergraduate degree for one from BJU.) I also was consulting for a ministry not that long ago and helping with some hiring/recruitment and was told implicitly that they did not want to consider BJ grads because they didn’t “want to deal with the perception” and “having to offer explanations”. Again, I’m not saying it is fair, correct or justified. From my perspective and experience, I would contend that there is a down-side remaining to their “brand” (to use a secular term.)

I don’t think we disagree on the issue of future accreditation battles either. I believe the left is awaiting for a retirement/death in the conservative block of the Supreme Court to be filled by Obama and then you will see a tsunami of major challenges floating toward that side of Capital Hill that will make the Warren court look like members of the Moral Majority. My personal bet would be on Kennedy to step down sometime in the next 4 years if any of the center-to-right justices do. Scalia — while aging — understands what is at stake and I think he will only leave feet first unless he’s sure he’d be replaced by a conservative.

You should give me a call sometime and let me take you to lunch. I’d love to make the acquaintance of another SI guy in the area. I might even already know you?

[WilliamD]

By the way, I’m not advocating ignorance…I’m advocating the church and its leaders becoming so theologically astute that they can reproduce their own leaders and pastors naturally.

In Jesus day, Hebrew was a living language as was Greek. As for hermeneutics, they had Jesus himself to teach them the practicalities of interpretation. God uses many men without a thorough academic education. But He has also used many men who have had this. Both Whitefield and Wesley were well educated. Moreover, much error came out of the era of revival thanks to uneducated men … read Iain Murray for detail. Timothy Dwight was a preacher of revival and he was a college president.

You paint with a very broad brush. A good course in church history would help. You could go to school to get it or you could read the literature of well trained school men as a short cut. Laymen don’t write much church history. They don’t write grammars, or lexicons. These come from schoolmen, so if you are to have trained ministers, it will ultimately come through the significant influence of schoolmen and not simply from “the elders” good men though they may be, unless they are themselves well trained somewhere. Its hard to get a better educated elder than Mark Dever or Ligan Duncan.

If my choice is sitting at the feet of Jesus vs. seminary, I will choose the Master. If it is a choice between sitting at the feet of godly academics vs. godly lay elders … doesn’t seem much of a choice.

Vested interest? Of course. I need a job, who cares about a calling! Good grief! You make this sound like we in the academy do this for the money. Not I nor my colleagues. After 19 years in pastoral ministry, 10 of them poorly prepared, I gave myself first to better preparation and then to dedicating myself to help alleviate the ignorance that seems to predominate ministry.

Today, seminary is more highly thought of than when I went to school, but I find your solution sadly misinformed, Lloyd Jones not withstanding.

JPS

[WilliamD]

The home grown country preachers that came out of the revivals were scorned by the academic types.

By the way, I’m not advocating ignorance…I’m advocating the church and its leaders becoming so theologically astute that they can reproduce their own leaders and pastors naturally.

Since our move to almost rural Florida, we have heard “home grown country preachers” preach and I have yet to hear one who is “theologically astute”. Home grown preachers that I have heard throw out a verse or two and then speak on all manner of things with little, and usually no, reference to the Scripture that they just read. Landmarkism and King James Onlyism are also common. Not only do these men not understand Greek or Hebrew or tools like Strong’s concordance, they don’t understand English all that well either. In their defense, these pastors have a huge amount of zeal, love their people, work very hard, and and emphasize ministry to the lower income and down and out people in our area.

I would like to see men that have the knowledge to rightly handle Scripture gained from a seminary education along with the zeal for the lost and suffering that these country preachers have.

Our two sons both have seminary educations – the older will have an MDiv from SBTS next month and the younger has an MDiv from BJU. Both also have undergrad and grad degrees in music. Some of the “home grown country preachers” scorn men that have prepared like our sons. Personally, I think that all men going into the ministry should be well prepared with a seminary education.

I concur with Jeff Straub’s view on this, but I also see a need for more local church involvement in training and ministry prep. Gone are the days when a 22-year old can leave Bible college and walk into a lead or solo pastor role. At best, they might start a work, but even then — how many sophisticated believers or new converts are going to want to be under the tutelage of a man that young and/or inexperienced.

However, I’m not sure this must be an “either/or” scenario. Apprenticeships and residencies are common in a wide variety of trades and professional vocations. In today’s flooded market (I recently received nearly 1,000 inquiries and resumes in a one-month span from people applying for two listed openings in our ministry), the likelihood of many churches hiring someone fresh out of college are slim and none (granted we are a larger church, but I don’t think we are unique). Currently we require a minimum of a Master’s degree from a seminary, just to get to the pool for first review. But an internship or residency, would be something I’d definitely notice. Dever does this to some extent, McLean Bible Church, Fellowship Bible (Little Rock) and many other churches are now offering internships with a lot of success and competition to get in to them. There simply no way that any one person can be so widely-educated as to be able to provide aspiring elders the substantive education they need in 21st century ministry in a wide-range of areas and even if they existed, I don’t see how they’d have time to do the work of ministry AND educate their students at the same time.

[WilliamD]

[Jeff Straub]

[WilliamD]

I think this is the professionalization of the ministry that Piper and Tripp warn about in their books “Brothers we are not Professionals” and “Dangerous Calling.”

Would this be the same John Piper who has an MDiv from Fuller, a doctorate from Germany and started his own seminary in Minneapolis?

JPS

Yes, but so what? Pointing that out doesn’t take away from the fact that Jesus’ way of holistic disciple making is superior to any man-made institution of higher learning. The local church has the God-given potential to plant churches and train pastors organically without the need of a Bible College or seminary. If you have a vested interest in academia because it’s how you make a living, i understand the push back….but the truth is, seminary and college is borrowed methodology and is not necessary. Lloyd-Jones in his book on Revival made reference to the seminary as one of the reasons we have no revival today….it was the professionalization and cold, scientific handling of the Word that has quenched the Spirit. The home grown country preachers that came out of the revivals were scorned by the academic types.

By the way, I’m not advocating ignorance…I’m advocating the church and its leaders becoming so theologically astute that they can reproduce their own leaders and pastors naturally.

I think Jeff and others have answered this well, but another few things I thought I’d add. What was done in the New Testament era was probably much better then our academic system we have today. Yet it was also descriptive, not prescriptive. Jesus and the Apostles lived in a time and culture which made master pupil education of all types flourish. The Synagogue was the primary place of all types of education, the culture provided an environment were even fisherman were well educated. In today’s culture that just doesn’t work. As Jeff said the education needed for today is far more broad and requires far more work and people to accomplish a full education of individuals. Culture puts such high demands on what it requires of individuals as far as pay. The church would have to spend a fortune to buy materials, the would probably need to support whoever was teaching financially, not to mention making sure they are well educated themselves. They would probably need the facilities to support students. And so on and so forth. Eventually you would probably need a board of men to handle all the goings on of the education. Eventually you would end up building a Bible College by another name. I mean you see a similar thing with Christian Schools that are tied to churches, they started because in order to teach a group of young people at even a high school and below level requires some sort of structure. within our culture. Yes in High school their is the home school alternative, but most of your parents are not qualified to educate at the same level as a college. layman would never be sufficient educators, especially if they were not full time employees of the church.

Gone are the days when a 22-year old can leave Bible college and walk into a lead or solo pastor role. At best, they might start a work, but even then — how many sophisticated believers or new converts are going to want to be under the tutelage of a man that young and/or inexperienced.

I want to preface this by acknowledging I currently have not completed a seminary degree. I am about 3 courses away from it, and Lord willing, should finish one (through http://www.bbc.edu/seminary/ eLearning) by the end of the year. I know I will benefit from more education. I appreciate the things I learned sitting under Bauder, Straub, and others at Central prior to transferring.

But I want to ask- why is that day that Dan B. speaks of gone?

I know of several men who labor for the Lord without completed seminary degrees. When I was in Maine, I was actually somewhat of an exception when I held a four-year bachelors. Many of the men were Bible Institute graduates from places like New Brunswick Bible Institute or Word of Life. Some had attended places like Hyles-Anderson. At least one I knew had a 3 year certificate from BJU (I don’t think they offer those anymore). Around these virtual parts, names like Bob Bixby and Chris Anderson would be among those that last I knew had not completed seminary.

Now, granted, many of the men I knew in Maine would generally not be featured on the radio or be able to step into larger ministry settings in metro areas. I know of some who were pursuing more training in ways they could (and probably would be online, now). But I also know that the situation was like that there at least in part because seminary-trained men often wouldn’t consider coming to such a place, because churches (and the communities they are in) are often small and unable to pay a full time salary, and the people are notoriously difficult to win to Christ (ranking 50th among the states in the US in per capita church attendance).

Now, the last time I looked, there are still plenty of rural churches. I mean, we need churches in cities and growing areas. But even though some are struggling, we can’t exactly say “gone are the days of rural churches and bi-vocational pastors.” If anything, many have acknowledged/predicted that will become more a norm (at least the bi-vo part).

As I said, I am not done with seminary. I suspect my ministry continues to improve the more training I get, and the older I get. but I would not count the 12+ years I have served in pastoral ministry as a waste, and to hear the churches I have served in, neither would they. Certainly not people like the GA at BJU who was in my youth group and is looking ahead to pastoral ministry. Not the former lesbian who came to Christ in our church in Maine, and was teaching children’s SS when we left, or who two daughters who led her to Christ after they were converted, and went to Faith for further training. Not the man who came into my office to share with me how a co-worker at the paper mill had led him to Christ, and needed help because his marriage was on the brink of divorce, and before we were done, the wife had trusted Christ and their marriage saved (he’s a deacon in the church he attends now). Not the sex offender I baptized here in Marshall, who continues to grow in the Lord and has ended his parole and made a new start in life here in our congregation. Not the Karen refugees from Myanmar who have found a home and friendships with fellow believers in a strange land here in Marshall. On I could go.

Another benefit of distance learning options is that they can be taken by people in churches who may not intend to pursue pastoral ministry, but would like to become better teachers in their local church settings. I have a man in my church right now who actually started coming to our church (leaving a more charismatic one) in part because he took an online seminary course and realized through his study that his church was in error on several doctrinal areas.

I think the brick-and-mortar experience is still best. But there are still those who could benefit from the other options, even as they may not realize it (or be able to pursue it) right away.

I wonder how many congregants wish their pastors had better training? I am sure there were times mine did. Men who hastily enter ministry often starve the flock or feed them a very poor diet. The sheep of The Lord deserve better. Keep studying. Your preaching is bound to improve. It cannot get any worse ;)

JPS

Greg….I don’t think I made myself as clear as I should have. I was thinking of the 60’s and 70’s, when it was more common that guys would leave a Bible college with a 3-year certificate (many only offered that in those days) and could be called to be a pastor. I grew up in a tiny town in the midwest and we were thrilled to have young guys that might consider to be our pastor. Many of the mentors I had during my first years of pastoring were guys who had left college at 21-22 years of age and “earned their bones” in a small church somewhere.

What I was inarticulately suggesting is that college education is more accessible that it was a generation ago and right now there is a FLOOD of available candidates. Never a week passes when a young college grad doesn’t ask me about a lead — any lead, into a vocational position of ministry. Many just automatically take their BS or BA straight with them into Seminary without even pausing. Online programs make that even more possible.

But our world is far more sophisticated and even choosy now. While small towns may still invite very fresh/young/newly minted guys to take such leadership roles, many more places can afford to be a little more demanding as to whom they will consider for a call.

I do not have a seminary degree and am one of those guys that stepped into pastoral ministry from a different vocation (for me, it was education). While I have an accredited doctorate, I will tell you that I have had to work hard to overcome my academic/educational deficit in trying to be a substantial and accurate teacher of the Word without the benefit of a seminary education. (Note: while I teach at a seminary, I teach on the Practical Theology side, not the Systematic Theology side.) I’ve spent a lot of hours pouring over computer programs filled with Greek and Hebrew studies with a desk full of commentaries trying to provide a reasonable exegesis when guys with a quality Seminary degree where heading for the coffee shop or links. (Thankfully, I’m not a coffee drinker or a golfer, so I lost nothing.)

And as a product of a very small fundamentalist church who spent too many years in the wacko end of the fundy pool, I would contend that one of the reasons I got headed in the direction I was thrust early in my ministry was directly related to the fact that our pastors did not possess seminary education or even an honest-to-goodness 4-year Bible degree. One had 2 years of a Bible college and the other had a one-year “Pastor’s” certificate. Just enough Bible education to make them dangerous and so I grew up in an atmosphere of topical preaching and tangent ranting for the most part. Great rhetoric at times, but lousy theology. It took me years to recover — if it could be said I have indeed recovered.

That said, these men were earnest, well-intentioned and I value some-to-much of what I experienced under their leadership. But in the end, one of the reasons I picked a low-quality Bible college for my undergraduate degree was because I had no better example and no one to provide direction for me. (I was the first in my family’s history to attend college.)

I hope I didn’t come off dismissive of those who don’t have a seminary pedigree or enough letters behind their names. Please forgive me if I did. What I was trying to imply was that today’s “consumer” (oh how I loathe that term), is not as ready to sit under a pastoral “green horn” than they might have been 30 or more years ago when I was first entering the ministry. There are always exceptions, but I don’t know of many who would say that they were “over-educated” when they entered into ministry. At the same time (and why I like the idea of a internship/residency), many of the lessons I learned in my first decade of pastoring could not have possibly learned at a seminary anywhere. Those lessons only could be learned in the trenches where theology, philosophy and methodology meet reality.

Count me among those who think that life-long learning — whether officially enrolled in a seminary or college or not — is a MUST for today’s ministry setting when information availability has exploded and is at everyone’s fingertips.

[Jeff Straub]

Your preaching is bound to improve. It cannot get any worse ;)

Agreed!

I am also going to say that I am glad that places like Central have adjusted to accommodate the schedules of pastors active in the ministry with modular schedule and such. I know several here in Minnesota and elsewhere who have taken advantage. Dr. Straub has even been generous enough to open his home to me to stay in during modules. Speaking from experience and observation, the Central men (and my profs at Faith, too) do sacrifice significantly for the benefit of the students. Many of them devote themselves to pulpit ministry and more to the benefit of churches around the state, as well. They certainly aren’t in it for the money.

(I was the first in my family’s history to attend college.)

And I was the first to graduate in mine in three generations (though I do have a great uncle who was an Episcopal bishop. Seriously).

I understand your point, and agree with it to a great degree. I don’t necessarily encourage others to follow my example. At the same time, I do see that there are some for whom it might be the best path. I’ve worked enough in rural or outlying areas to know that though there may be many candidates looking for pastoral positions, not all of them are willing or ultimately able to hack it out here in the sticks. The stories I could tell!

Greg L:

Back around 1975, my pastor in Astoria, Oregon was a New Brunswick Bible Institute grad. Good man.

Dan, like you I am in agreement with the points made by Jeff, but you made a couple of statements upon which I would like to comment or highlight as food for further thought.

Gone are the days when a 22-year old can leave Bible college and walk into a lead or solo pastor role. At best, they might start a work, but even then — how many sophisticated believers or new converts are going to want to be under the tutelage of a man that young and/or inexperienced.

I think it is a good thing that such days are gone, at least as a general rule. The Apostle Paul warns churches not to place a novice into pastoral ministry (1 Tim. 3:6), and it is a rare thing indeed when a 22 year old would not be a novice. Indeed, I recall entering the pastoral ministry after several years in the military, a Bible college degree and most of my M.Div. finished, having been happily married for 6 years with two children, and I still felt I was a novice. In fact, when the leaders of two different churches — my home church and the church I had been serving as an interim preacher for about a year in submission to their elders — told me that I should accept the call from the latter, I objected that still I felt the need for more experience and mentoring before entering into pastoral ministry. But they unanimously disagreed and said that, though they still saw some youthfulness, my life experience and training up to that point more than made up for it and that I should definitely accept the call. So I did what I was told by the elders, satisfied that the churches’ identification of my gifts and calling, along with their own mature judgment under God’s guidance, was His will for me.

I allude to this experience simply to point out that I have always had a problem with calling men who are too young and inexperienced into pastoral ministry, and my experience in full-time pastoral ministry for the past 20 years has only taught me more emphatically the importance and wisdom of Paul’s admonition. In my opinion, if more churches had obeyed such clear teaching in the first place, many problems and heresies might have been avoided.

Currently we require a minimum of a Master’s degree from a seminary, just to get to the pool for first review.

This was also a requirement at the aforementioned church that called me into full-time pastoral ministry, the church where I am still serving as a pastor 20 years later. As I indicated before, I was serving as their preacher for about a year before I was called to be their full-time pastor, and this was while I was in my third year as a full-time seminary student (on the 4-year plan for a 102 semester hour M.Div.). But I remember at the time having conversations with the elders in which I questioned this requirement. And I still question it. One reason for this is that it may not actually be fair. Suppose, for example, you have one candidate that has a four year Bible college degree from a solid school up against a man with an M.A. or an M.Div. from a solid seminary but whose undergraduate training was, say, in mechanical engineering. Wouldn’t the guy with the four year Bible college degree actually likely be just as well trained as the guy with the M.Div.? And perhaps more likely to have better training than the guy with the M.A.? You see my point, I hope. Although I agree about the value of such education, I think we need to be careful and fair about the way we assess it in the churches when considering a man’s true qualifications.

Your wrote:

I recall entering the pastoral ministry after several years in the military, a Bible college degree and most of my M.Div. finished, having been happily married for 6 years with two children, and I still felt I was a novice.

I really appreciated your thoughts here. I’ve been a Christian for 11 years, was in the military for 10 and got out to go into ministry. I got my MA and was seriously considering stepping out and going into a solo Pastorship at that time. None of my Pastors had ever been to Seminary. Why should I stay and wait as an Associate? I went through the usual excuses; they didn’t have MDiv’s in Paul’s day, overemphasis on education, etc. I prudently listened to the counsel of my Pastor and my Seminary professors and decided to wait for the MDiv. I believe this was the better choice.

We must also recognize that education doesn’t make a Pastor. On the pulpit committee at my church a few years back, when we Deacons interviewed Pastoral candidates, we asked one for his basic chronology of eschatology beginning with the rapture. He had an MA. He fumbled for a minute, then asked half jokingly, “Can I get a multiple choice on that?” This was after he had emphatically stated he believed in the pre-tribulation rapture and the literal millennial reign of Christ. He just couldn’t tell us why.

Suppose, for example, you have one candidate that has a four year Bible college degree from a solid school up against a man with an M.A. or an M.Div. from a solid seminary but whose undergraduate training was, say, in mechanical engineering. Wouldn’t the guy with the four year Bible college degree actually likely be just as well trained as the guy with the M.Div.?

Ouch! My undergrad is in emergency & disaster management!! Good thoughts.

[TylerR] Ouch! My undergrad is in emergency & disaster management!! Good thoughts.

Seems to me that can be a useful skill in the ministry - I’m only halfway in jest!