Bible Colleges a Relic of the Past?

Well, Tyler, as you no doubt already know, pastoral ministry will present you with a number of “emegerncies” and “disasters,” so the principles you learned in your undergrad training may well prove useful.

As for the comparison between a Bible college degree versus that of an M.A. or M.Div. is concerned, here is yet another consideration. Suppose you have a guy who has both a Bible college degree and an M.Div.? Wouldn’t he likely be even better trained than a guy with just an M.Div. and a “secular” (for want of a better term) undergrad degree? Especially if his M.Div. didn’t simply repeat his undergrad education?

For example, in my case, after I received my B.A. in Biblical studies from CBC (now CIU), I went on to Covenant Theological Seminary for an M.Div., but I tested out of their Greek course, for example, and was able to go on to more advanced Greek studies that others didn’t have time to fit into their program. And I was able to wave several of the basic courses others had to take and instead delve more deeply into more advanced studies. I was able, for instance, to take more elective courses in exegetical studies, systematic theology, and church history than many others could fit into their education there. So, since I still had to complete the same number of credits, the degree I ended up with was more advanced in some areas than most of my classmates who did not enter CTS with the same kind of background. The upshot of all this is that a guy with a Bible college degree and an M.Div. may be significantly better trained than a guy who simply has an M.Div. degree.

By the way, Tyler, I also served in the U.S. Navy, but it was between G.I. Bills (during the Reagan administration), so I didn’t get anywhere near the benefits you now have. V.E.A.P. doesn’t hold a candle to the new G.I. Bill! I am glad that my fellow servicemen now have such benefits. It is the least our country can do for those who have put themselves in harms way in our behalf.

[Dan Burrell]

Some have thought that “on-line” programs would be the wave of the future for enrollment and income for small Bible colleges. I don’t think so. LU has cornered the market on that and I can’t envision another one becoming viable. They poured millions and millions into it and will now reap billions and billions. They suck the life out of other possibilities by their shear size.

Dan,

Liberty may be the 800# gorilla of the online education market for Bible colleges, but I wouldn’t be so quick to dismiss the thought of others becoming viable. There are a few. It’s a growth market for colleges.

I like the way they do it at the Founders Ministry Study Center, where they require one to have a pastor as a mentor while they engage in their studies. Here is the link: http://study.founders.org/

They say, “It is our conviction that the proper place of training for the ministry is not online, but in the church. While the Internet is a great means of making resources available, it is no substitute for personal training and discipleship. Therefore this Study Center serves in conjunction with a mentoring program that allows students to work with respected, experienced pastors.”

[Pastork]

They say, “It is our conviction that the proper place of training for the ministry is not online, but in the church. While the Internet is a great means of making resources available, it is no substitute for personal training and discipleship. Therefore this Study Center serves in conjunction with a mentoring program that allows students to work with respected, experienced pastors.”

That’s what I have been advocating all along. This is great to read. I hope Jeff Straub does not think this is “sadly misinformed” also.

[Pastork]

Suppose, for example, you have one candidate that has a four year Bible college degree from a solid school up against a man with an M.A. or an M.Div. from a solid seminary but whose undergraduate training was, say, in mechanical engineering. Wouldn’t the guy with the four year Bible college degree actually likely be just as well trained as the guy with the M.Div.? And perhaps more likely to have better training than the guy with the M.A.? You see my point, I hope. Although I agree about the value of such education, I think we need to be careful and fair about the way we assess it in the churches when considering a man’s true qualifications.

Pastork….Strong thoughts and additions over-all. I think on the “equivalency” issue between a 4-year degree form a Bible college vs. an M.Div — there are a lot of variables. Every school has substantial differences in academic rigor — both at the undergraduate level and graduate level. Fully 1/2 of the undergraduate courses are going to be “basics” and would be the same regardless of the degree one earns. An M. Div. is a “light-weight” degree in that it is considered professional and not academic, so I guess some could be near equivalents. However, I think it would also be assumed that graduate level courses are going to be more rigorous than undergrad courses. But an M.Div at a low-rigor seminary might well be of lesser content than a B.S. in Pastoral Theology from a more challenging program.

I think one facet that can’t be ignored is something to which you alluded initially and that is the amount of maturation that takes place in one’s early and mid-20’s and that is simply part of the passage of time, product of experience and even some physiological maturation. (Parts of the male brain don’t fully mature until the late-mid 20’s.)

So the short answer is — perhaps, but there are so many variables from institution to institution and person to person, that probably no real absolutes can be claimed over-all.

PastorK,

Your undergrad Bible degree must have been far better than mine at BJU. My MDiv at Southeastern was far more advanced than a Bible College undergrad degree as I’m sure Cornerstone’s is as well. The one caveat is that just like you taking Greek on the undergrad level did allow me advanced standing in Greek. I still believe that I would have been better off in the long run with a BA in some marketable business type skill, and then gotten an MDiv. That is what I recommend to young men I talk to thinking about the ministry. The side note to that is that if they do end up going to a Christian College, they can still take useful Biblical Studies types of courses as electives.

After going through a Christian School all my life, my experience at the BA level may not be reflective of the norm, but as long as an MDiv is the basic degree for ministry (and I think in the majority of cases, it should be), the Bible College degree is not necessary and detrimental to getting a job when necessary for supporting your family financially.

-Ben

Dan, you raise some very good points. There are indeed variables and not all schools are alike. Of course, when I spoke of a “solid Bible college” as over against a “sold seminary,” perhaps I should clarify that I was intending schools that were both theologically orthodox and academically strong. As for your assertion that “an M. Div. is a ‘light-weight’ degree in that it is considered professional and not academic,” I suppose that would also depend upon the school. I doubt very seriously that an M.Div. from the primary conservative Reformed seminaries — such as WTS, RTS, or CTS — would be considered “lightweight.” And I doubt the same about institutions such as TEDS, SBTS, or Southeastern as well (I have a guy in my congregation who got his M.Div. from Southeastern, and he really knows his stuff!).

In fact, in the Reformed circles mentioned, with which I am more familiar, the M.Div. has been designed to be a well-rounded degree that stresses both pastoral training as well as academic rigor and is usually also intended to be a terminal degree … the only degree a pastor should ever need. Of course, things have changed in recent times such that it is often no longer considered a terminal degree as much as it used to be, but this fact has only led seminaries like CTS to make it even more academically rigorous, expecting that many of their graduates will go on for doctoral work and wanting to prepare them for it. At any rate, while it may be true in some circles that an M.Div. is considered a “lightweight” degree, I can assure you that this is not the case in the Reformed tradition I have referred to. But, then, the Reformed tradition I am referring to has always valued academic rigor in their pastors. In fact, if you compare the amount of credit hours required for an M.Div. from such reformed seminaries with those required at other institutions, you will typically also see that they are even more demanding in the sheer amount of academic work that must be done.

Ben, CIU was quite a demanding program, at least back when I went there. In fact, I remember a number of students that transferred from other Bible colleges and had a hard time keeping up. Some even quit. As for my comparison to the M.Div., I suppose I was not as fair as I could have been because I didn’t experience it the same way that most others did at CTS. Perhaps I was operating with bad assumptions there. At any rate, I can tell you that CIU did a good job of preparing me for my seminary experience.

Perhaps I should also point out how much depends upon the particular student as well. I came into my college experience after my stint in the military and with a few more years of maturity behind me and was very serious about my studies. For example, I took two full years of Greek there, even though only one was required for my program. And I took a whole year of Hebrew even though it wasn’t required at all. I also filled my elective credits with independent studies in theology, textual criticism, and exegetical studies. I suspect I made the very most of it, and I took the same approach at seminary, not wanting to cover too much of the same territory and opting for more challenging work. For example, whenever I looked at my schedule and saw the basic courses, I would approach the professor, describe and discuss what I had already done in college, and then ask him if he felt I should wave the course or not. When a professor recommended a waver, he would then usually also recommend that I take another of his more advanced courses in the same subject area, which is what I always did.

Anyway, perhaps I assumed too much based on my own experience, which is probably somewhat unique. Thanks for your input guys!

Keith

http://www.mbbc.edu/anchorbaptist/

http://www.anchorbaptistonline.org/#/bridge-to-campus

Study at a Bible college … stay in your home church

I mentioned in another thread that Maranatha is charging forward with online options at hyper-speed. This is why.

[TylerR]

I mentioned in another thread that Maranatha is charging forward with online options at hyper-speed. This is why.

In spite of the value of “presence” in education, the future of college education is at the very least going to be some blended form of online and being at college.

I went to school in a technical field (Math major, Computer science minor, along with multiple chemistry and physics classes). There is no doubt that “being there” for things like certain labs and so on is essential. On the other side, I would guess that about 50% of my classes were lecture style, with little class interaction, and none that could not have been handled with an online conferencing system. A fairly large number of classes were not only lecture style, but had a very large number of students. These days, even the computer science labs could largely be handled online. And something similar to Skype or online conferencing (which allows document sharing) would work just fine for office hours with the professors.

For something like the various pastoral education fields, I can imagine that a blended model would be great. The local church is unlikely to have the resources to teach Greek, Hebrew, and upper-level theology, but much of that could be handled online, with the practical side of pastoral studies being handled by interning with the pastor.

Things have changed a lot since the old “degree by correspondence course,” and likely will continue to change enough to transform the college model as we know it, even if it will not become completely obsolete.

I’m not sure if this is really an issue or not, but growing online education will increase tuition cost. Not only does online education expensive (I work in IT at my school) the cost of an internet connection that can handle it, and a secure and helpful infrastructure. But also the fact that almost all tuition is subsidized by other college costs. Accreditation agencies and the government don’t like rising tuition if it raises to much to quickly they can get upset, to combat this most schools subsidize growing education costs by increasing Room and Board and meal plans and other similar costs because those organizations don’t look at those costs as much. If more and more students become remote and not using other college facilities it will force many colleges to increase tuition at an alarming rate which could cause some issues for them.

Now do I think that it is necessarily a bad thing… no… but it is an issue that needs to be dealt with as online education grows. In my opinion I’m not to sure I like the whole subsidization thing anyway. I’m not sure I like the fact that off campus student’s education is partially being paid by on campus students just because they live in dorms and eat in the cafeteria.

I’m not sure if this is really an issue or not, but growing online education will increase tuition cost.

I’m taking classes from Clarks Summit at the moment. The software package they use to administrate the classes is free and open source (https://moodle.org/). Interaction with fellow students and the instructor takes place in an environment very similar to the forums here at SI. Some instructors have audio or video for us to watch, but none have live streaming. Those who have used video have utilized Vimeo for hosting their content. Two of my instructors don’t even live on site at BBC- one is a pastor in Maryland, and another in the Atlanta area. Another one of my profs administered the class from his iPad during part of the class time while visiting family in Michigan.

I don’t think that the expenses will necessarily increase significantly if your students are off-site. Not every setting would require something like a T1 line if say, most of your professors and students were scattered geographically.

[Greg Linscott]

I’m not sure if this is really an issue or not, but growing online education will increase tuition cost.

I’m taking classes from Clarks Summit at the moment. The software package they use to administrate the classes is free and open source (https://moodle.org/). Interaction with fellow students and the instructor takes place in an environment very similar to the forums here at SI. Some instructors have audio or video for us to watch, but none have live streaming. Those who have used video have utilized Vimeo for hosting their content. Two of my instructors don’t even live on site at BBC- one is a pastor in Maryland, and another in the Atlanta area. Another one of my profs administered the class from his iPad during part of the class time while visiting family in Michigan.

I don’t think that the expenses will necessarily increase significantly if your students are off-site. Not every setting would require something like a T1 line if say, most of your professors and students were scattered geographically.

I’ll echo what Greg states here. I’m currently attending another Bible College, in PA, that also uses the Moodle system. All the options stated above are readily used by the profs, and I’ve had classes taught by profs in Virginia, Kentucky, and Dallas, TX.

As a matter of fact, BECAUSE of the increasing online presence of the college, the school was able to correct an inequity in its tuition system that existed. Effective this year, the tuition for on-campus students is the same as the tuition for its online students. The school LOWERED its tuition for on-campus students due to the success of its online presence.

With the penetration of broadband (DSL, Cable, Fiber via FIOS or other options), the cost to the students is minimal (books, syllabi) since it’s already bundled into the bill for phones or internet. The cost to the schools is not insignificant (you have to pay for faster WAN connections to service your students, more specialized networking equipment, IT staff, SharePoint portals, virtual labs and broadcasting equipment, etc), but I’d be surprised if it was as much as the traditional one professor to thirty students in a classroom five days a week for 17 weeks.

I’ve taken a few technical classes lately and have done a combination of prerecorded classes and live, dial in classes. While I prefer the live dial in classes, there’s no reason why something like Greek couldn’t be done either way as long as there is an email address or number to call for help when a student gets stuck. What I think might be the best way to do it is to go this route - have the students do their homework in class, where they can get the help, and then do the ‘learning’ aspect of it in their own homes. It was mentioned in a news article I saw a while back, but I can’t find the link now.

If I were ever to start working towards my M.Div, I would have to go the correspondance course or remote class route to do so. I simply can’t afford to pick up my family and move. That, or I’d have to travel significantly to get to a school on top of a lengthy commute daily for my job. I’ve already downloaded classes that I might be able to apply towards an M.Div (or at least make it a little easier) from iTunes U (which is a free part of iTunes).

[Jay]…but I’d be surprised if it was as much as the traditional one professor to thirty students in a classroom five days a week for 17 weeks.