The Biggest Lie about Grace .... Law

Aaron, I referred to Anne’s total inability statements as reformedspeak. Chip asked why I called it that. The next post has Anne quoting reformers. When I explained how it was antinomian, Anne apparently didn’t understand that and instead referred to this as a meat topic that some aren’t ready for. I never thought of antinomianism as a meat doctrine. I thought meat doctrines were for those sound in the faith. It does explain some other ideas on parenting and spanking I have read here though. So originally I was directing it to Chip.

I think it is great that Anne continues to push this and quotes reformers at the same time. Like I said, I bookmarked this page for future reference as well. Reformed on reformed crime is entertaining. This is like a tire fire. I am just going to sit back and watch this thing burn.

Aaron,

So the short answer to your question about the verses teaching that we are saved by grace and not by works is- I agree with them. We are absolutely saved by faith alone. I never intended to imply that the fact that works must be present with faith in order for it to be “not dead,” means that the works did the saving. So I am fine with your interpretation that faith alone saves us. My point is only that faith can NEVER stand in any picture without works present with that faith. Any faith that tries to exist without works at any time must be a dead faith and therefore, not saving.

I would disagree with you that James is only referring to sanctification and not to salvation. I agree with Calvin on this point. Forgive me for the length of his quote, but I know I can’t say it better:

“Like justification, sanctification is an essential part of the overall work of salvation. It must be noted again that scripture teaches that sanctification cannot be separated from justification. There is no salvation without sanctification. No one can be justified who is not at the same time being sanctified for the God who justifies also sanctifies. Hebrews 2:11 states: ‘For both He who sanctifies and those who are sanctified are all from one Father, for which reason He is not ashamed to call them brethren.’ Christ himself says: ‘Not everyone who says to Me, “Lord, Lord,” will enter the kingdom of heaven; but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven’ (Mt. 7:21). The apostle John warns us that a profession of salvation will be proved by a life of obedience to the commandments of God, i.e. a life of sanctification (1 Jn. 2:3–6). Paul teaches that only those who have forsaken sin and are walking in holiness of life will inherit the kingdom of God (1 Cor. 6:9–11; Eph. 5:5–6; Gal. 5:19–21). James says that a profession of faith without any accompanying works of sanctification is a dead faith and therefore non–saving (Js. 2:14–21). The theology of the Reformation was unanimous in declaring this truth.”

So, the same Reformers who believed in Sola Fide, also believed that it was truly a faith that was not alone.

Does that answer your question?

Bill

PS- Aaron, I always appreciate your calm and level spirit in whatever you respond to. I believe that spirit is so essential for any form of electronic communication to have a chance of being edifying. Thanks for lovingly leading the way by example. I wish I could sit down with you and drink whatever you drink and chat for a while. I’m sure I would come out of that time more encouraged in my walk with God.

I think, Aaron, i do agree with those statements, but like anyone, it would take some discussion say what each point it saying in thoroughness.

I also want to say how important personal holiness is, of expressing Christ in our lives. Not only for testimony to unbelievers, but just because it pleases God to see Christ in us. Viewing sanctification from our positional sanctification in Christ should give a person the best motivation to grow, you know? We should get to the point in our lives when we can obey God compelled only by love for Him. Love is the goal motivation. and I think you agree with that, too.

I am looking through some other sources so it’s not me trying to explain things in my own words. it’s been said way better than what I’m saying.

if you look on obeying God’s commands as a good work that we express in our lives, the 1689 London Bap Conf of Faith says this:

Chapter 16: Of Good Works

1._____ Good works are only such as God hath commanded in his Holy Word, and not such as without the warrant thereof are devised by men out of blind zeal, or upon any pretense of good intentions.
( Micah 6:8; Hebrews 13:21; Matthew 15:9; Isaiah 29:13 )
2._____ These good works, done in obedience to God’s commandments, are the fruits and evidences of a true and lively faith; and by them believers manifest their thankfulness, strengthen their assurance, edify their brethren, adorn the profession of the gospel, stop the mouths of the adversaries, and glorify God, whose workmanship they are, created in Christ Jesus thereunto, that having their fruit unto holiness they may have the end eternal life.
( James 2:18, 22; Psalms 116:12, 13; 1 John 2:3, 5; 2 Peter 1:5-11; Matthew 5:16; 1 Timothy 6:1; 1 Peter 2:15; Philippians 1:11; Ephesians 2:10; Romans 6:22 )

3._____ Their ability to do good works is not at all of themselves, but wholly from the Spirit of Christ; and that they may be enabled thereunto, besides the graces they have already received, there is necessary an actual influence of the same Holy Spirit, to work in them to will and to do of his good pleasure; yet they are not hereupon to grow negligent, as if they were not bound to perform any duty, unless upon a special motion of the Spirit, but they ought to be diligent in stirring up the grace of God that is in them.
( John 15:4, 5; 2 Corinthians 3:5; Philippians 2:13; Philippians 2:12; Hebrews 6:11, 12; Isaiah 64:7 )

4._____ They who in their obedience attain to the greatest height which is possible in this life, are so far from being able to supererogate [to go beyond the call of duty] , and to do more than God requires, as that they fall short of much which in duty they are bound to do.
( Job 9:2, 3; Galatians 5:17; Luke 17:10 )

5._____ We cannot by our best works merit pardon of sin or eternal life at the hand of God, by reason of the great disproportion that is between them and the glory to come, and the infinite distance that is between us and God, whom by them we can neither profit nor satisfy for the debt of our former sins; but when we have done all we can, we have done but our duty, and are unprofitable servants; and because as they are good they proceed from his Spirit, and as they are wrought by us they are defiled and mixed with so much weakness and imperfection, that they cannot endure the severity of God’s punishment.
( Romans 3:20; Ephesians 2:8, 9; Romans 4:6; Galatians 5:22, 23; Isaiah 64:6; Psalms 143:2 )

6._____ Yet notwithstanding the persons of believers being accepted through Christ, their good works also are accepted in him; not as though they were in this life wholly unblameable and unreprovable in God’s sight, but that he, looking upon them in his Son, is pleased to accept and reward that which is sincere, although accompanied with many weaknesses and imperfections.
( Ephesians 1:6; 1 Peter 2:5; Matthew 25:21, 23; Hebrews 6:10 )

7._____ Works done by unregenerate men, although for the matter of them they may be things which God commands, and of good use both to themselves and others; yet because they proceed not from a heart purified by faith, nor are done in a right manner according to the word, nor to a right end, the glory of God, they are therefore sinful, and cannot please God, nor make a man meet to receive grace from God, and yet their neglect of them is more sinful and displeasing to God.
( 2 Kings 10:30; 1 Kings 21:27, 29; Genesis 4:5; Hebrews 11:4, 6; 1 Corinthians 13:1; Matthew 6:2, 5; Amos 5:21, 22; Romans 9:16; Titus 3:5; Job 21:14, 15; Matthew 25:41-43 )

Spurgeon has several good sermons on Sanctification. Here’s a good one based on Jn 17:17, in which he does impress on us the seriousness of living a holy life, yet he acknowledges

Beloved, this sanctification is a work of God from its earliest stage. We go astray of ourselves, but we never return to the great Shepherd apart from his divine drawings. Regeneration, in which sanctification begins, is wholly the work of the Spirit of God. Our first discovery of wrong, and our first pang of penitence, are the work of divine grace. Every thought of holiness, and every desire after purity, must come from the Lord alone, for we are by nature wedded to iniquity. So also the ultimate conquest of sin in us, and the making us perfectly like to our Lord, must be entirely the work of the Lord God, who makes all things new, since we have no power to carry on so great a work of ourselves. This is a creation; can we create? This is a resurrection; can we raise the dead? Our degenerate nature can rot into a still direr putrefaction, but it can never return to purity or sweeten itself into perfection; this is of God and God alone. Sanctification is as much the work of God as the making of the heavens and the earth. Who is sufficient for these things? We go not even a step in sanctification in our own strength; whatever we think we advance of ourselves is but a fictitious progress which will lead to bitter disappointment. Real sanctification is entirely from first to last the work of the Spirit of the blessed God, whom the Father hath sent forth that he might sanctify his chosen ones. See, then, what a great thing sanctification is, and how necessary it is that our Lord should pray unto his Father, “Sanctify them through thy truth.”

I said the following:

“We are absolutely saved by works alone.”

I meant to say:

“We are absolutely saved by faith alone”

I’m thankful to be alive and and able correct to myself instead of being dead by a lightning strike!

Bill

Vitaliy’s been following along somewhat, reading this thread, and he was online this morning and asked me “where’s that sharper onion site?” it still gives me a smile.

[Bill Roach]

I said the following:

“We are absolutely saved by works alone.”

I meant to say:

“We are absolutely saved by faith alone”

Bill, I understand what you’re saying, I think. See if this is a fair summary: faith alone justifies but works always accompany genuine faith—and there is no moment when they do not.

My own view is that while this may be the case, it is (a) possible to interpret James differently on this point, (b) Paul’s emphasis is on isolating faith from works in justification and (c) it’s very easy to express the “faith & works are always together” idea in ways that lead to confusion about the exclusive role of faith in justification.

A counterargument would be that James didn’t seem too worried about that. My counter-counter would be that though James is inspired, people have found his “faith and works” discussion pretty confusing over the years—if they didn’t interpret through the grid of Paul’s more clear treatment of the topic in Romans. James’ concern is mainly a Christian living concern. Paul’s develops justification at length.

In any case, I think we’re agreed that in the life of believers, true faith and works always exist together… and this is the point that relates to sanctification.

Anne, if you agree w/the four propositions below, we can try to locate the points of disagreement. Personally, I’d find it interesting to see if we can precisely do that.

• Believers are fully credited with the righteousness and obedience of Christ fully when they believe
• God’s plan is to not only credit believers with righteousness but to transform them so that they actually are personally obedient and holy
• That process of transformation begins at conversion and continues throughout the believer’s life
• That process of actually becoming personally obedient and holy reaches completion in glory

The reason for these four points is that (a) every view of sanctification I’ve seen (so far) accepts them, and (b) at times, you’ve spoken of the Christian life as though no actual personal obedience is possible or in any way relevant—as though we have nothing but credited/imputed righteousness/obedience and never actually personally obey.

But if that’s the case, no transformation is occurring… and all the commands of the NT have no purpose. Where there is nothing to do, commands are irrelevant.

We’re a ways afield from the original issue at this point. Matt Olson’s view includes the idea that believers do in fact have the responsibility and increasing ability to personally obey God. What’s not so clear is what role personal discipline, and application of Scripture (in the form of rules) has in the process.

Aaron,

I like your summary here. We can have agreement on all four of these points that you note and still have some disagreements on the place and even the form that “rules” should have in our daily growth. I think you are right that if someone does not agree with all four of these points there’s even less of a chance of being able to find common ground on the “rules” issue(s).

Straight Ahead!

jt

[Aaron Blumer]

Anne, if you agree w/the four propositions below, we can try to locate the points of disagreement. Personally, I’d find it interesting to see if we can precisely do that.

• Believers are fully credited with the righteousness and obedience of Christ fully when they believe
• God’s plan is to not only credit believers with righteousness but to transform them so that they actually are personally obedient and holy
• That process of transformation begins at conversion and continues throughout the believer’s life
• That process of actually becoming personally obedient and holy reaches completion in glory

The reason for these four points is that (a) every view of sanctification I’ve seen (so far) accepts them, and (b) at times, you’ve spoken of the Christian life as though no actual personal obedience is possible or in any way relevant—as though we have nothing but credited/imputed righteousness/obedience and never actually personally obey.

But if that’s the case, no transformation is occurring… and all the commands of the NT have no purpose. Where there is nothing to do, commands are irrelevant.

We’re a ways afield from the original issue at this point. Matt Olson’s view includes the idea that believers do in fact have the responsibility and increasing ability to personally obey God. What’s not so clear is what role personal discipline, and application of Scripture (in the form of rules) has in the process.

one thing that I have come to diverge on is the neglect of the importance of positional sanctification, it’s pretty much dismissed as important for heaven, but i think people who understand sanctification in the best way understand that this is vital to sanctification now and should be more impressed upon us. i could write more, but i dont’ want to stop on this right now.

2. the neglect of love motivation. the guarding of fear or lesser motivations to the point that one thinks it’s almost impossible to reach the state of love motivation. can you come to a point in your spiritual growth when God shows you that you’re home free, in the sense of righteousness and acceptance, in Christ, and you can meet that point and say, by God’s grace, God I will obey you just because I love you, no other motivation.

because we have tons of other motivations for obedience that we need to be shucking off like they’re diseases. fear being one of them. any ‘contractual’ ideas, like, I’ll obey you God and then you’ll cause me to grow, or I’ll do right and then you’ll bless this and that aspect of my life—sometimes we don’t even realize we’re thinking this way. and then our husband goes away from God, kids disappoint us, and we are somehow accusing God and asking why because we were obeying with implied conditions.

paul said to run the race, and you have to run by the right rules, being love. we can make even our own striving or growth our idol, and God will never give us satisfaction or rest in that.

the motivation of perceived spiritual maturity in your circles. i hate this. i was so good at it. and I was very earnest and conscientious. but was i being truly directed to strive after Christ? or some ideal set by men?

3. about rules: Once one correctly understands how you are free from rules, that all was fulfilled for you, you are then free to love God’s rules more than ever, to love keeping them, to not lower them to some standards attainable by average people.

4. It does sound like not caring somehow doesnt’ it? But it’s oddly the opposite. How to say it? I think it’s just redirecting my efforts into more profitable spiritual pursuits for godliness.

anyway, until monday …

[Anne Sokol] because we have tons of other motivations for obedience that we need to be shucking off like they’re diseases. fear being one of them.

I think this has been covered earlier in the thread, but it deserves restating here. Fear is NOT a motivation that needs to be “shucked off” by the believer. Nowhere in scripture is love elevated above or in opposition to fear. 1 Peter 1:17 readily comes to mind, but I could quickly find more if you need.

A correct knowledge of salvation, grace, trust, law and the relationship between the redeemed sinner and his Creator is summed up in the statement; Wherever I am, in whatever I think, say and do. I know for a fact that I am in the center of the will of the Eternal Father for my life, a life without condemnation.

These are not a series of boxes ticked, but a series of miles stones passed in reaching a destination. As each milestone is reached there is an inner witness of change so great that the saint knows he will never be the same person again. Something seems to have died within and new life takes its place. At such times it seems that gravity is going to fail and you’ll just step off the planet.

[Huw]…. a series of miles stones passed in reaching a destination. As each milestone is reached there is an inner witness of change so great that the saint knows he will never be the same person again. Something seems to have died within and new life takes its place. At such times it seems that gravity is going to fail and you’ll just step off the planet.

Do you have any Scriptures that substantiate this very unusual statement? Please detail. Thanks

‘’a series of miles stones passed in reaching a destination’’:

Certain birthdays are considered to be milestones and John confirms this in calling the saints, babes, infants, young man and old men. Growing in grace and the knowledge of the Eternal.

‘’As each milestone is reached there is an inner witness of change so great that the saint knows he will never be the same person again’’.

Job had something to admit at the end of his trial and what he said confirmed the change in him.

‘’Something seems to have died within and new life takes its place’’. Behold the old has gone, the new is come.

‘’At such times it seems that gravity is going to fail and you’ll just step off the planet’’. They will soar on wings like eagles.

Thanks for asking Jim.

fear/respect of God grows as one grows in love.

I’m talking about fear of judgment or punishment: 1 Jn 4:16-19

We have come to know and have believed the love which God has for us. God is love, and the one who abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him. By this, love is perfected with us, so that we may have confidence in the day of judgment; because as He is, so also are we in this world. There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves punishment, and the one who fears is not perfected in love. We love, because He first loved us.

The NLT is beautiful:

We know how much God loves us, and we have put our trust in his love. God is love, and all who live in love live in God, and God lives in them. And as we live in God, our love grows more perfect. So we will not be afraid on the day of judgment, but we can face him with confidence because we live like Jesus here in this world. Such love has no fear, because perfect love expels all fear. If we are afraid, it is for fear of punishment, and this shows that we have not fully experienced his perfect love. We love each other because he loved us first.

Love, only love not mixed with fear of punishment, is the highest motivation, it’s what God wants for people. Will we be rewarded for deeds done in fear? I do not know. And people need to know, that yes, if fear is what you need right now, you can choose that motivation, but it’s not the goal. Ask God for the goal.

Anne’s point, about distinguishing different types of fear and about distinguishing varying levels of motivation, is very important to the theological tradition, especially the Protestant tradition. It goes back at least to Augustine:

121. All the divine precepts are, therefore, referred back to love, of
which the apostle says, “Now the end of the commandment is love, out of
a pure heart, and a good conscience and a faith unfeigned.” [259] Thus
every commandment harks back to love. For whatever one does either in
fear of punishment or from some carnal impulse, so that it does not
measure up to the standard of love which the Holy Spirit sheds abroad
in our hearts—whatever it is, it is not yet done as it should be,
although it may seem to be. Love, in this context, of course includes
both the love of God and the love of our neighbor and, indeed, “on
these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets” [260] —and,
we may add, the gospel and the apostles, for from nowhere else comes
the voice, “The end of the commandment is love,” [261] and, “God is
love.” [262]

Therefore, whatsoever things God commands (and one of these is, “Thou
shalt not commit adultery” [263] ) and whatsoever things are not
positively ordered but are strongly advised as good spiritual counsel
(and one of these is, “It is a good thing for a man not to touch a
woman” [264] )—all of these imperatives are rightly obeyed only when
they are measured by the standard of our love of God and our love of
our neighbor in God [propter Deum]. This applies both in the present
age and in the world to come. Now we love God in faith; then, at sight.
For, though mortal men ourselves, we do not know the hearts of mortal
men. But then “the Lord will illuminate the hidden things in the
darkness and will make manifest the cogitations of the heart; and then
shall each one have his praise from God” [265] —for what will be
praised and loved in a neighbor by his neighbor is just that which,
lest it remain hidden, God himself will bring to light. Moreover,
passion decreases as love increases [266] until love comes at last to
that fullness which cannot be surpassed, “for greater love than this no
one has, that a man lay down his life for his friends.” [267] Who,
then, can explain how great the power of love will be, when there will
be no passion [cupiditas] for it to restrain or overcome? For, then,
the supreme state of true health [summa sanitas] will have been
reached, when the struggle with death shall be no more. (Enchiridion)

This concept was crucial for Luther’s doctrine of justification, which I won’t post a quote for. Calvin, however, really develops this in connection with the Christian life. He distinguishes between servile fear, which motivates unregenerates who try to fulfill God’s law to avoid punishment, and the proper fear that characterizes regenerate and adopted sons of God. Here’s one passage:

To this fault they add a second—viz. that when they do think of God it is against their will; never approaching him without being dragged into his presence, and when there, instead of the voluntary fear flowing from reverence of the divine majesty, feeling only that forced and servile fear which divine Judgment extorts Judgment which, from the impossibility of escape, they are compelled to dread, but which, while they dread, they at the same time also hate. To impiety, and to it alone, the saying of Statius properly applies: “Fear first brought gods into the world,” (Theb. lib. 1). Those whose inclinations are at variance with the justice of God, knowing that his tribunal has been erected for the punishment of transgression, earnestly wish that that tribunal were overthrown. Under the influence of this feeling they are actually warring against God, justice being one of his essential attributes. Perceiving that they are always within reach of his power, that resistance and evasion are alike impossible, they fear and tremble. Accordingly, to avoid the appearance of condemning a majesty by which all are overawed, they have recourse to some species of religious observance, never ceasing meanwhile to defile themselves with every kind of vice, and add crime to crime, until they have broken the holy law of the Lord in every one of its requirements, and set his whole righteousness at nought; at all events, they are not so restrained by their semblance of fear as not to luxuriate and take pleasure in iniquity, choosing rather to indulge their carnal propensities than to curb them with the bridle of the Holy Spirit. But since this shadow of religion (it scarcely even deserves to be called a shadow) is false and vain, it is easy to infer how much this confused knowledge of God differs from that piety which is instilled into the breasts of believers, and from which alone true religion springs. And yet hypocrites would fain, by means of tortuous windings, make a show of being near to God at the very time they are fleeing from him. For while the whole life ought to be one perpetual course of obedience, they rebel without fear in almost all their actions, and seek to appease him with a few paltry sacrifices; while they ought to serve him with integrity of heart and holiness of life, they endeavour to procure his favour by means of frivolous devices and punctilios of no value. (Institutes 1.4.4)