Elizabeth Vargas’ Year-long Investigation into the Independent Fundamental Baptist Church Airs on “20/20,” Friday, April 8, 10-11 PM ET
Elizabeth Vargas’ Yearlong Investigation Into The Independent Fundamental Baptist Church, Airs On “20/20,” Friday, April 8, 10-11 PM ET Try to imagine the pain and humiliation of a teenage girl, just 15 years old, who says she was forced to stand in front of a New Hampshire church congregation and confess her “sin” of being pregnant. She says not only was she forced to confess her pregnancy, but also to ask for their forgiveness – with no mention of the man she says sexually abused her. After all, she says, the pastor told her it’s better than being stoned to death as the bible describes. That is what Tina Anderson alleged happened to her at her ultra conservative Independent Fundamental Baptist, or IFB, Church. The IFB has thousands of congregations across the country, but many people have never heard of it. That was, until another woman, Jocelyn Zichterman, began a public campaign – armed with nothing but a computer and memories of her own alleged abuse that she says church beliefs can foster. And survivors are now coming out of the woodwork, to say she’s not alone.
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No…that was a new way of presenting his version of things.
Wow, there are a lot of assumptions in that statement. Astounding maligning of actions and motives—without reason.
http://www.drchuckphelps.com/index.html Dr. Phelp’s written statements
[Pastor Joe Roof] Do you believe that the words “Independent, Fundamental, Baptist,” having been so closely tied to the Hyles sex scandals of the past and the sex, physical abuse scandals of the present, could ever serve as a helpful way for a church to identify itself again?Scandals that I have come to know of…
Do we need Interdependent, Bible-believing churches instead of Independent, Fundamental, Baptist Churches?
1. Joe Combs - raping and abusing his adopted daughter - HAC grad
2. David Hyles -
3. Bob Gray - jacksonville Fl - french kissing minors (what he admitted to)
4. TBC/phelps -
5. Marty Braemer
6. good grief…why did I start? There are more than I can count. All of which are down played. SIN runs rampid. Sure, we can have the ‘right music, dress, hair, size, Bible, methods, results, attendance, bus ministry, RU ministry, etc” but when it comes down to practicing what we claim to have…we are sorely missing the target. Help us one and all.
Were the statements made by Tina’s mother part of the 20/20 report? Since she played such a pivotal role, I’d think that her perspective would have been offered. After all, she’s the parent, and nothing that happened (as far as the church was concerned) could have happened without her consent and cooperation. That’s really the part I’m fuzziest about, because the focus continues to be on Phelps as if he were the only person ‘in charge’ or responsible for Tina. Until I saw the letter from the mom on the website, I thought she might be dead.
In one of the statements Phelps has on his site, he characterizes Tina as having been in a “covert dating relationship” with Willis. That is a very poor choice of words, IMO. In fact, it struck me as bizarre.
As far as dropping the ‘Fundamental’ label, I can understand why a church would not want to have that association today. Words are more powerful than we realize at times, and once someone has in their mind that independent Fundamental Baptists are some sort of denomination or ‘cult’, you are not going to talk them out of it, regardless of the ‘independent’ part, or the fact that there is no leader, or the thousands of IFB churches that do not have the issues presented as problematic. And I’m willing to bet that there are dozens of churches represented here at SI that don’t have dysfunctional authority issues.
As I said before, the environment that lends itself to a predator getting a foothold is not endemic to IFB churches, or even churches in general. But church should be the last place where a predator operates unhindered. It should also be the last place where a troubled girl is put in the spotlight while an adult- a criminal - lurks in the background. Nothing I’ve read so far (and I’ve not read extensively on this case) leads me to believe that Willis was ever brought before the church as part of his repentance. He should not have been allowed to stay in any capacity without that happening.
I’ll probably catch the show later on Hulu or something. But I can’t help being skeptical after some of the cut&paste jobs I’ve seen on other issues in the media.
In one of the statements Phelps has on his site, he characterizes Tina as having been in a “covert dating relationship” with Willis. That is a very poor choice of words, IMO. In fact, it struck me as bizarre.
As far as dropping the ‘Fundamental’ label, I can understand why a church would not want to have that association today. Words are more powerful than we realize at times, and once someone has in their mind that independent Fundamental Baptists are some sort of denomination or ‘cult’, you are not going to talk them out of it, regardless of the ‘independent’ part, or the fact that there is no leader, or the thousands of IFB churches that do not have the issues presented as problematic. And I’m willing to bet that there are dozens of churches represented here at SI that don’t have dysfunctional authority issues.
As I said before, the environment that lends itself to a predator getting a foothold is not endemic to IFB churches, or even churches in general. But church should be the last place where a predator operates unhindered. It should also be the last place where a troubled girl is put in the spotlight while an adult- a criminal - lurks in the background. Nothing I’ve read so far (and I’ve not read extensively on this case) leads me to believe that Willis was ever brought before the church as part of his repentance. He should not have been allowed to stay in any capacity without that happening.
I’ll probably catch the show later on Hulu or something. But I can’t help being skeptical after some of the cut&paste jobs I’ve seen on other issues in the media.
[Susan] Nothing I’ve read so far (and I’ve not read extensively on this case) leads me to believe that Willis was ever brought before the church as part of his repentance. He should not have been allowed to stay in any capacity without that happening.
I’m not sure what you mean here. The testimony of the four former members is that both Willis and Tina appeared before the church to repent the same night but were represented as unrelated incidents. Willis allegedly repented of adultery and Tina of fornication.
(Note, FWIW, where are four former or current members telling the other side of what happened? Maybe the appearing of the two before the church without disclosure of the connection between them is not in dispute?)
Views expressed are always my own and not my employer's, my church's, my family's, my neighbors', or my pets'. The house plants have authorized me to speak for them, however, and they always agree with me.
Aaron, it seemed, from what I’d read, that Tina was the only one brought in front of the church. IMO, regardless of what she did or didn’t do, I don’t think that was appropriate. I want to be clear on that. I also think that characterizing his acts as adultery when the ‘other woman’ was a teenage girl is so disingenuous it makes my teeth hurt.
Something else that bothered me before, when we discussed this case here- Didn’t Tina say she was forced to face her step-father in jail and ‘forgive’ him? And didn’t Phelps or Tina’s mother say that never happened? Did the 20/20 report find any documentation of that visit? I mean, people don’t just do-se-do in and out of jails. They have to sign in and out. That would be another thing that I don’t think should have happened. Even if a girl wanted to do that, I wouldn’t trust the predator not to use that opportunity to again try to dominate and manipulate his victim. If she wants to forgive him, she can do it long distance.
Something else that bothered me before, when we discussed this case here- Didn’t Tina say she was forced to face her step-father in jail and ‘forgive’ him? And didn’t Phelps or Tina’s mother say that never happened? Did the 20/20 report find any documentation of that visit? I mean, people don’t just do-se-do in and out of jails. They have to sign in and out. That would be another thing that I don’t think should have happened. Even if a girl wanted to do that, I wouldn’t trust the predator not to use that opportunity to again try to dominate and manipulate his victim. If she wants to forgive him, she can do it long distance.
[MClark]No, no assumptions are being made. Nor is there any maligning involved. Nor is the statement made without reason. I’ve followed this case since it went public, read all the published statements by Pastor Phelps and all parties involved. His statement issued to 20/20 was never made public until last evening, and it’s the first time he publicly claimed Tina was in a covert dating relationship. Simple as that.No…that was a new way of presenting his version of things.
Wow, there are a lot of assumptions in that statement. Astounding maligning of actions and motives—without reason.
http://www.drchuckphelps.com/index.html Dr. Phelp’s written statements
[BryanBice]Just to clarify further, the site linked to in the above post was not created (or at least didn’t go live) until yesterday.[MClark]No, no assumptions are being made. Nor is there any maligning involved. Nor is the statement made without reason. I’ve followed this case since it went public, read all the published statements by Pastor Phelps and all parties involved. His statement issued to 20/20 was never made public until last evening, and it’s the first time he publicly claimed Tina was in a covert dating relationship. Simple as that.No…that was a new way of presenting his version of things.
Wow, there are a lot of assumptions in that statement. Astounding maligning of actions and motives—without reason.
http://www.drchuckphelps.com/index.html Dr. Phelp’s written statements
[Louise Dan] I think a lot of “facts” came out last night.
Fact 1. Chuck Phelps to this day maintains that Tina was in some kind of consensual “covert dating relationship” with Willis.
We already knew that. (The phrase “covert dating relationship” is new, but the gist is not.)
[Louise] Fact 2. Chuck Phelps still denies that Tina was “disciplined” by the church, but there were 3 witnesses that say that she was indeed brought up for “church discipline.” Maybe the fact established there is that Phelps isn’t telling the truth or is self-deluded.We already knew there were two sides to that.
[Louise] As for Tina’s mom, the fact established there is that she is married to a registered sex offended, alleged by Tina to have molested her and convicted of molesting another minor. Tina’s mom still supports Phelps. And a sex offender. She has a record of allowing unsavory men in her life which undermines the reliability of her “witness.”
We already knew that, too.
[Louise] Pastor Phelps should say, “At the time, I considered Tina in a consensual dating relationship with Willis. That was wrong on my part. I should have strongly advocated with the police department for justice. I am sorry that I was not a strong advocate for the child as the Bible requires of me, and I repent.”
I think that’s completely reasonable, if he comes to see the first part that way. It appears though, that he still believes they were dating. Which is not impossible. Though the law does not allow for the possibility of consent at that age, law doesn’t really determine the nature of human beings. It does determine how we handle their behavior. I’m all for the law. I think it draws the line in about the best place it can be drawn. And the legality of the situation has never been in dispute.
I guess since we’re being repetitive anyway, I’ll harp one more time on what I believe is the most important issue in all this: we need to evaluate these things using biblical categories not legal and sociological categories. We have to uphold the law, of course, and—given how prone the world is to misunderstand biblical principles and their application—we have to be really aggressive about that. I’m in agreement with you there, Louise.
But neither the law nor prevailing social science are prepared to understand sin, spiritual issues or the dynamic of the body of Christ. Not even close.
Views expressed are always my own and not my employer's, my church's, my family's, my neighbors', or my pets'. The house plants have authorized me to speak for them, however, and they always agree with me.
I wouldn’t normally post big chunks of Scipture in a thread, but our church’s men’s breakfast was so encouraging this morning. The speaker took us to 1 Corinthians 2. (None of the guys had seen the 20/20 thing last night). I’ll leave it to readers to figure out how it applies.
1 Cor 2 ESV
1 And I, when I came to you, brothers, did not come proclaiming to you the testimony of God with lofty speech or wisdom. 2 For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ and him crucified.
3 And I was with you in weakness and in fear and much trembling, 4 and my speech and my message were not in plausible words of wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power, 5 that your faith might not rest in the wisdom of men but in the power of God. 6 Yet among the mature we do impart wisdom, although it is not a wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are doomed to pass away.
7 But we impart a secret and hidden wisdom of God, which God decreed before the ages for our glory. 8 None of the rulers of this age understood this, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. 9 But, as it is written, “What no eye has seen, nor ear heard, nor the heart of man imagined, what God has prepared for those who love him”— 10 these things God has revealed to us through the Spirit. For the Spirit searches everything, even the depths of God.
11 For who knows a person’s thoughts except the spirit of that person, which is in him? So also no one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might understand the things freely given us by God. 13 And we impart this in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual truths to those who are spiritual. 14 The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned. 15 The spiritual person judges all things, but is himself to be judged by no one. 16 “For who has understood the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him?” But we have the mind of Christ.
1 Cor 2 ESV
1 And I, when I came to you, brothers, did not come proclaiming to you the testimony of God with lofty speech or wisdom. 2 For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ and him crucified.
3 And I was with you in weakness and in fear and much trembling, 4 and my speech and my message were not in plausible words of wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power, 5 that your faith might not rest in the wisdom of men but in the power of God. 6 Yet among the mature we do impart wisdom, although it is not a wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are doomed to pass away.
7 But we impart a secret and hidden wisdom of God, which God decreed before the ages for our glory. 8 None of the rulers of this age understood this, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. 9 But, as it is written, “What no eye has seen, nor ear heard, nor the heart of man imagined, what God has prepared for those who love him”— 10 these things God has revealed to us through the Spirit. For the Spirit searches everything, even the depths of God.
11 For who knows a person’s thoughts except the spirit of that person, which is in him? So also no one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might understand the things freely given us by God. 13 And we impart this in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual truths to those who are spiritual. 14 The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned. 15 The spiritual person judges all things, but is himself to be judged by no one. 16 “For who has understood the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him?” But we have the mind of Christ.
Views expressed are always my own and not my employer's, my church's, my family's, my neighbors', or my pets'. The house plants have authorized me to speak for them, however, and they always agree with me.
[Louise Dan] Aaron, we already KNEW THOSE FACTS? Then why did you keep using the word “speculation”? This has been my point all along. We (and the Wilds, and Northland, and BJU, and Colonial Hills, and Trinity) have all known enough for quite some time to know that something wrong happened and something needs to be corrected.
I think you misunderstood what I mean.
I’ve never referred to the testimony of those involved as speculation. What is speculation is who is correct and what their statements imply, etc., etc.
But I think it came out pretty early that Phelps believed it consensual, that the two stood before the church, that he says he told police but didn’t follow through, etc. My point is that we’ve heard all of the claims of both sides by those involved already. And about the only new thing was some different phrasing.
Another occurs to me though. There was some stuff in the 20/20 piece about Tina not “pressing charges” because she thought this was the right thing to do/what Pastor Phelps wanted her to do (interestingly, she does not say he told her not to. He asked her if she wanted to… according to her comments last night.). I don’t remember hearing that part before, so that might be new.
But again, his recollection is that Tina didn’t want to press charges… though I don’t know what pressing charges has to do with it when you’re talking about this sort of crime. Wouldn’t it be prosecuted by the DA’s office?
Anyway, I wish the documentary had unearthed more new info if they were doing to go to the trouble to air it.
Views expressed are always my own and not my employer's, my church's, my family's, my neighbors', or my pets'. The house plants have authorized me to speak for them, however, and they always agree with me.
I think it’s already been linked, but everybody should read this…
http://www.drchuckphelps.com/specific-answers-to-some-difficult-questio…
and other stuff he’s got there.
Things are not necessarily as simple as the IFB haters would sometimes like everyone to believe. (And no, I’m not using the term “IFB haters” thoughtlessly).
Example:
Another
http://www.drchuckphelps.com/specific-answers-to-some-difficult-questio…
and other stuff he’s got there.
Things are not necessarily as simple as the IFB haters would sometimes like everyone to believe. (And no, I’m not using the term “IFB haters” thoughtlessly).
Example:
[Chuck Phelps] 10/10/97 — Communicated again with DCYF. [police] They said it was considered to be a police matter. Was assured that I was in compliance with their needs.
Another
While there was every effort to cooperate fully with law enforcement professionals in 1997, I believe that today I would b far more aggressive with other community professionals to assure that justice is served.On why Willis was still attending the church…
As a member of the community, Mr. Willis is free to attend any an all public gatherings. He may attend ball games, enter video arcades, theme parks, city parks, and come and go from a variety of venues in which children hang out including schools.Note.. there may be typos above. The document at Phelps’ website is—wisely—a series of images, so it is not possible to cut and paste text from it. I recommend going to the source.
… In truth, Mr. Willis faced greater levels of control when he attended church than when he was not in church. Mr. Willis attended services accompanied by his wife. After the allegations were made against Mr. Willis his interaction with others at church was always on an adult level in in public venues. Further, because of the nature of the allegations procedures were in place which assured that Mr. Willis never be permitted to participate in any ministry involving minors or be unsupervised in his attendance.
Views expressed are always my own and not my employer's, my church's, my family's, my neighbors', or my pets'. The house plants have authorized me to speak for them, however, and they always agree with me.
[Mike Durning]Great post, Mike. As a criminal defense attorney who has handled several of these types of church matters I’d add at the beginning of the second paragraph “consult with legal counsel experienced in criminal matters.” This should be done prior to notifying authorities (unless there is an immediate safety risk such as a gunman in the church). Many churches and pastors I’ve dealt with naively think that law enforcement and the courts will act as an extension of the church to handle the matter according to biblical principles and that if the perp just confesses to everything he’ll be treated fairly. Not so. In fact, often just the opposite. I’d at least advise the perp to get a lawyer before I as pastor called police. Otherwise, you are feeding this sinner and the overall situation unprotected to secular humanists in the criminal justice system who care nothing about his or the victim’s soul, families involved, certainly not the church family, or the spiritual dynamics of the overall situation.
The proper response will not only do all the things we all know should be done (i.e. notification of authorities, notification of any uninvolved parents/guardians, advise and assist with counseling matters, sensitive revelation to church leadership and/or membership as necessary, removal of church personnel involved in perpetrating or covering, review of church policies that may have been insufficient in such matters).
Jay
[Anna Walker] Key item #3 report it and make sure you do everything you can to assist the police investigation and encourage justice.As a criminal defense attorney of 16 years who has handled several of these types of matters I can assure you that doing everything you can to assist the police investigation will not necessarily ensure justice, especially not Biblical justice. There is some naivete among Christians that secular law enforcement is always righteous and therefore handles criminal investigations fairly and biblically. They don’t. Law enforcement is about arresting and convicting people who they think violate the law. That’s good as far as it goes, and police should be notified about these matters, but don’t assume that law enforcement is the church’s like-minded partner in addressing the ultimately more important spiritual issues at hand.
All parties involved should have legal counsel before handing off the matter to secular authorities.
Jay
[Attorneyjay]So there are no Christians within the criminal justice system? Not a single one? And God won’t/can’t use non-Christians to protect and aid His children?[Mike Durning]Great post, Mike. As a criminal defense attorney who has handled several of these types of church matters I’d add at the beginning of the second paragraph “consult with legal counsel experienced in criminal matters.” This should be done prior to notifying authorities (unless there is an immediate safety risk such as a gunman in the church). Many churches and pastors I’ve dealt with naively think that law enforcement and the courts will act as an extension of the church to handle the matter according to biblical principles and that if the perp just confesses to everything he’ll be treated fairly. Not so. In fact, often just the opposite. I’d at least advise the perp to get a lawyer before I as pastor called police. Otherwise, you are feeding this sinner and the overall situation unprotected to secular humanists in the criminal justice system who care nothing about his or the victim’s soul, families involved, certainly not the church family, or the spiritual dynamics of the overall situation.
The proper response will not only do all the things we all know should be done (i.e. notification of authorities, notification of any uninvolved parents/guardians, advise and assist with counseling matters, sensitive revelation to church leadership and/or membership as necessary, removal of church personnel involved in perpetrating or covering, review of church policies that may have been insufficient in such matters).
Jay
This kind of bunker mentality is the result of an extreme view of cultural separation; it is not correct Biblical separation from a brother who is sinning that is in the hope of repentance/restoration.
[Aaron Blumer] It appears though, that he still believes they were dating. Which is not impossible.Are you saying it is not impossible that they were dating, or that it is not impossible that he thinks they were dating?
Discussion