Elizabeth Vargas’ Year-long Investigation into the Independent Fundamental Baptist Church Airs on “20/20,” Friday, April 8, 10-11 PM ET
Elizabeth Vargas’ Yearlong Investigation Into The Independent Fundamental Baptist Church, Airs On “20/20,” Friday, April 8, 10-11 PM ET Try to imagine the pain and humiliation of a teenage girl, just 15 years old, who says she was forced to stand in front of a New Hampshire church congregation and confess her “sin” of being pregnant. She says not only was she forced to confess her pregnancy, but also to ask for their forgiveness – with no mention of the man she says sexually abused her. After all, she says, the pastor told her it’s better than being stoned to death as the bible describes. That is what Tina Anderson alleged happened to her at her ultra conservative Independent Fundamental Baptist, or IFB, Church. The IFB has thousands of congregations across the country, but many people have never heard of it. That was, until another woman, Jocelyn Zichterman, began a public campaign – armed with nothing but a computer and memories of her own alleged abuse that she says church beliefs can foster. And survivors are now coming out of the woodwork, to say she’s not alone.
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I think you are the one who is tuning others out. I didn’t say that a child’s actions would prevent anything or guarantee their safety. Precautions reduce risk- that’s all. I made it very clear that a child is not responsible for the actions of others. They are only responsible for their own actions. I have also made it clear that because I am aware that most crimes against children are committed by someone they know and trust (although I may not have said that in this thread) my kids have permission to disobey and remove themselves from any adult- teacher, pastor, Congressman- who even so much as makes them uncomfortable.
You are, of course, free to teach your children as you like.
You are, of course, free to teach your children as you like.
[rogercarlson] I dont want to rehash what I said last year. but I will say a couple of things. I don’t disagree with Aaron and Mike that it is possible for a consensual physical relationship can develope between a teen and an adult. I don’t disagree that it would be sin by both parties.If this is in reference to me, what I said was…
[Mike Durning] For example, let’s talk about the limits of responsibility of teenaged victims. On a legal level, a teenaged victim under that state’s age of consent for sexual activity is not in any way culpable for their behavior in such situations. The moral sphere is more complex. If the perpetrator stirs in their targeted teenager desires that they otherwise would not have had at that time, that is not the teenager’s fault. In the eyes of the Lord, I’m certain that the “millstone principle” applies. It is not their fault, because they are too immature to be consensual, I grant. But if a teenaged victim willingly engages in activity that they knew was morally wrong based on upbringing and moral instruction from God’s Word, at some point, realization that they are doing wrong begins.I agree that the teen could agree to the sex. I’m saying they don’t have the authority or judgment to agree or to disagree with any major decisions. That’s why God gave them parents. Their agreement would be irrelevant.
From a pastoral and discipleship perspective, they will at some point need to understand why their agreement to it was wrong, even though it is irrelevant to the wrongness of what the perpetrator did. How you navigate whether this makes them feel more guilty than they already do is a matter of timing and wording.
As a thought experiment, suppose we change the scenario a little and make the crime http://definitions.uslegal.com/a/aggravated-assault/ aggravated assault .
Let’s say a teen boy walks into a bar, insolently insults the mother of a guy twice his size. Let’s say the kid is 14. The big guy hears the insult, turns around and pounds the kid with a chair. The kid lives, but he’s a mess.
Absolutely nobody is going to say “That was the kid’s fault, period.” The law is certainly not going to “blame” the kid.
Now please consider this question:
If we say the kid shouldn’t have done what he did, does that reduce the guilt of the guy who pounded him?
It does not.
See, if we stop thinking of guilt as zero-sum or, worse yet, binary, things start making a lot more sense. The adult man is 100% responsible for his behavior.
But if I’m thinking in biblical categories (rather than legal and sociological ones), I recognize that though the kid is scot-free before the law, his is not necessary 100% innocent in the matter. The math is not zero zum. The adult is 100% to blame for what he did, but the kid is also 100% guilty for what he did—which was something else entirely.
We could tweak the scenario further. Suppose the kid keyed the adult’s car on the way in, too.
Is the big guy less to blame for his assault? No… but I bet some of you are starting to feel a little sympathy for him. Shame on you (no irony intended). He’s still sitting right there at 100% guilty.
Is the kid to blame for being insolent and for property damage? Yep. He’s sitting at 100% too, for a different crime.
Is the kid to blame for getting hit? That one’s complicated. I’d say no, he isn’t. He’s to blame for being very, very foolish and apparently malicious as well.
Now add a couple more details: both the kid and the adult are members of your church and you witness the event and you’re the pastor. What do you do?
Is the big guy less to blame? Again, no.
Has the little guy sinned too? Yes!
Since this is an assault by adult on a minor, you, as the pastor have to report it. Legally, the big guy’s in trouble but the little guy’s not. Spiritually, they both need help, and you’re not doing the little guy a favor to ignore his need. He needs alot of comfort. He’s been beat up by a brute. But he needs more than comfort. He needs some correction.
Let’s say a teen boy walks into a bar, insolently insults the mother of a guy twice his size. Let’s say the kid is 14. The big guy hears the insult, turns around and pounds the kid with a chair. The kid lives, but he’s a mess.
Absolutely nobody is going to say “That was the kid’s fault, period.” The law is certainly not going to “blame” the kid.
Now please consider this question:
It does not.
See, if we stop thinking of guilt as zero-sum or, worse yet, binary, things start making a lot more sense. The adult man is 100% responsible for his behavior.
But if I’m thinking in biblical categories (rather than legal and sociological ones), I recognize that though the kid is scot-free before the law, his is not necessary 100% innocent in the matter. The math is not zero zum. The adult is 100% to blame for what he did, but the kid is also 100% guilty for what he did—which was something else entirely.
We could tweak the scenario further. Suppose the kid keyed the adult’s car on the way in, too.
Is the big guy less to blame for his assault? No… but I bet some of you are starting to feel a little sympathy for him. Shame on you (no irony intended). He’s still sitting right there at 100% guilty.
Is the kid to blame for being insolent and for property damage? Yep. He’s sitting at 100% too, for a different crime.
Is the kid to blame for getting hit? That one’s complicated. I’d say no, he isn’t. He’s to blame for being very, very foolish and apparently malicious as well.
Now add a couple more details: both the kid and the adult are members of your church and you witness the event and you’re the pastor. What do you do?
Is the big guy less to blame? Again, no.
Has the little guy sinned too? Yes!
Since this is an assault by adult on a minor, you, as the pastor have to report it. Legally, the big guy’s in trouble but the little guy’s not. Spiritually, they both need help, and you’re not doing the little guy a favor to ignore his need. He needs alot of comfort. He’s been beat up by a brute. But he needs more than comfort. He needs some correction.
- Legal issues… spiritual issues. Two different things.
- Sociological dogma… theological principle. Two different things.
- Guilt for assault…. guilt for malice. Two different things.
Views expressed are always my own and not my employer's, my church's, my family's, my neighbors', or my pets'. The house plants have authorized me to speak for them, however, and they always agree with me.
Aaron,
Could you please specifically state what correction a teenage rape victim needs to receive from her (or his) pastor?
Could you please specifically state what correction a teenage rape victim needs to receive from her (or his) pastor?
Aaron, you are blaming the victim. I know you don’t think you are. But, you are. Your very example is meant to blame the victim. Because you are MAKING the victim in your story (the little boy) look as sinful as possible. You “say” that the bigger child is the one responsible. But, your very words put the blame on the little boy. I was raped. I was nine years old. Now, I KNOW you will say that I am reacting because I’m a victim. But, I’m reacting because I see how rhetoric like yours is used to blame the victim. I went to an Independent Baptist Church. My pastor graduating from BJ. Everything is exactly like what most of you here on SI will relate to. I know you “say” that the child is not at fault. But, your very fine line between, oh morality and legality is wrong. There is a problem. Legally I was not at fault. Morally I was also not at fault. But, my pastor chose to blame me. He chose to say that what occurred was consensual. Now, I love my pastor. I believe like many of you, his education about this subject was limited. That’s why we need to view the Tina Anderson situation with open eyes so that we can learn from it. I don’t want another little girl to go through the trauma I went through. There is no sin on the victim’s part. Because the man who raped me attended my church/school and was in a position of authority over me, I had no ability to say no. And, when I told what happened I was blamed and the man was never punished.
Abuse is everywhere. We don’t like to believe that. It is easier to turn a blind eye. Every religion has it. I mean look at the sex scandals in the Roman Catholic church. I believe that it is high time that light is shed on it in our own circles. Sin breeds on darkness. Let’s shed light on this issue and make changes. Let’s help the shattered little boys and girls (and TEENAGE victims too), so that they can heal. That is what Jesus would have done.
Abuse is everywhere. We don’t like to believe that. It is easier to turn a blind eye. Every religion has it. I mean look at the sex scandals in the Roman Catholic church. I believe that it is high time that light is shed on it in our own circles. Sin breeds on darkness. Let’s shed light on this issue and make changes. Let’s help the shattered little boys and girls (and TEENAGE victims too), so that they can heal. That is what Jesus would have done.
you all think, after reading this entire thread, that Aaron’s illustration was addressing the forcible rape of young children. I’m aghast. I’m perplexed. I’m… I’m… http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys.php] http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-sick014.gif
Anne- you’ve begged people to listen to you, but you are not listening to anyone else. Not everyone in this thread is talking about Tina Anderson, especially since so many have repeatedly said that they don’t know what happened in her case, and aren’t going to speculate. Some of us are attempting to discuss the many issues that the incidents in recent years raise.
I’m sorry you experienced such trauma, and at a very young age. No one around here is going to say or even think that you are at fault. But if you want to discuss the issues that have been raised here, you are going to have stop interpreting what people say through the filter of what happened to you.
Anne- you’ve begged people to listen to you, but you are not listening to anyone else. Not everyone in this thread is talking about Tina Anderson, especially since so many have repeatedly said that they don’t know what happened in her case, and aren’t going to speculate. Some of us are attempting to discuss the many issues that the incidents in recent years raise.
I’m sorry you experienced such trauma, and at a very young age. No one around here is going to say or even think that you are at fault. But if you want to discuss the issues that have been raised here, you are going to have stop interpreting what people say through the filter of what happened to you.
[AndrewSuttles]Putting in my two cents, Andrew. The root cause is not lust or pedophilia (although they may have something to do with it). In cases I am familiar with, I have found that the root cause of this kind of sexual perversion is not about solely about gratification but is largely about power/control, which ultimately is about pride. The coverups and denials are all about reputation…again, pride.[Bob Hayton]…but tend to avoid admitting this ugly fact about our own group.Well said, Bob. Sadly, sex scandals have been all too common in the IFB movement and we need to address the root cause.
The preacher as “man of God” teaching, the emphasis on authority and control, the lack of openness by church leaders, often no accountability for senior pastors, no denominational checks and balances, a persecution mindset and remnant mentality, a tendency toward externals and legalism, emphasis on coporeal punishment — all this can combine to make IFB churches susceptible to such abuse. We need to admit that and work to safeguard our churches from this.
I’d say Bob hit the nail on the head. And instead of looking at this with a persecution mindset (which is a focus on self…pride), we need to say a deep groaning “Woe is me” and seriously work to rid our “group” (as Bob put it) of pride and humbly seek God’s wisdom in dealing with the problem, as several others have said.
Can’t think about this much more…my heart aches too much….
Shawn Haynie
Ladies and Gentlemen,
I have to say that I am appalled at some of you. Phelps is not the issue here. Tina Anderson is. The Pastors (plural) involved BLEW IT! You can make any excuse you want but it is just that — an excuse. There is no scenario, (biblical, theological, social, moral, et. al.) in which a teenage girl is at fault and a 38 year old man is allowed to continue to attend and worship at the church in question without it being sin. PERIOD. That alone puts all of the men in question under suspicion. I know many of the men named personally. I studied under some of them and fellowshipped with them. I guarantee you I will no longer do so.
I can also tell you that I think this whole thread is ridiculously preposterous. I am ashamed to be a member of this site and hereby request to be removed from your membership. Sin is sin. All involved need to repent and make restitution. May God grant repentance and mercy.
I have to say that I am appalled at some of you. Phelps is not the issue here. Tina Anderson is. The Pastors (plural) involved BLEW IT! You can make any excuse you want but it is just that — an excuse. There is no scenario, (biblical, theological, social, moral, et. al.) in which a teenage girl is at fault and a 38 year old man is allowed to continue to attend and worship at the church in question without it being sin. PERIOD. That alone puts all of the men in question under suspicion. I know many of the men named personally. I studied under some of them and fellowshipped with them. I guarantee you I will no longer do so.
I can also tell you that I think this whole thread is ridiculously preposterous. I am ashamed to be a member of this site and hereby request to be removed from your membership. Sin is sin. All involved need to repent and make restitution. May God grant repentance and mercy.
[Susan R] I can’t believe you all think, after reading this entire thread, that Aaron’s illustration was addressing the forcible rape of young children. I’m aghast. I’m perplexed. I’m… I’m… http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys.php] http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-sick014.gif quote]
Whoopi Goldberg on the View went on the record in her defense of Roman Polanski by claiming what he did wasn’t “rape rape” just non-consenual sex with an underage minor. Conservative commentators had a field day with that one. When you use words like “the forcible rape of young children” you come awfully close to making the same kind of argument—that unless there was a knife to the throat or a gun to the head, it’s not really all that bad. I’m not trying to judge your motives, I’m trying to explain why people (like me) react so strongly to some of the statements that are being made in this thread. Those words convey a message. They convey an attitude. They convey a conclusion.
The illustration Aaron used sounds to me exactly like an attempt to diminish the focus on the two adult men—one rapist (and yes, given what has been admitted, that is what he is, period) and one pastor, and place it back on the girl. And if that illustration isn’t meant to address the issue of rape, why is it on this thread? Do I completely misjudge him? Here’s a thought experiment (to coin a phrase): suppose a person wanted and intended to shift the focus on responsibility from the men to the girl. How would another analogy better serve that purpose?
Excellent Robert!
Roger Carlson, Pastor Berean Baptist Church
Susan, I AM responding to the issues being presented. I think you are the one that keeps throwing wrenches into things.
You say that nobody would fault me or blame me. I share my story not for sympathy, but to say that yes I was blamed. By my pastor, by my (multiple) nouthetic counselors, by my own father. What happened to Tina is NOT unusual. I share my story to highlight that fact. Do I want or need sympathy? No. I have an amazing God who has guided me to a secular counselor and I am healing and honestly I now grieve for my abuser instead of hate. I have truly forgiven him and pray for his salvation.
My story is meant to bring a personal side to your views. I don’t think that you guys (Aaron and you are the first people I’m thinking of), realize how your comments can be twisted to blame victims. I’m saying that even though outwardly what you say may “sound” good, when it is put into practice it falls apart and causes damage. Your rhetoric has been repeated for years and years by many pastors and universities. Let’s change that rhetoric. Let’s recognize the flaws.
We NEED to change our treatment of abuse victims. And, I know it hurts to have to acknowledge that maybe we have been wrong. But, I wish you could look into the eyes of a scared fragile broken child who has been abused and then ask them to repent of their sin. I have a picture of me taken with the man who raped me. A picture that traumatizes me to look at it. I was twenty years old when that picture was taken. The look of terror on my face as I am seen next to my abuser is palpable for anyone who sees it. But, but, but …that picture is now a sign of victory to me. Because my God. My great, amazing, God of the impossible has rescued me. The man is now facing life charges for rape of a minor. He will never touch me again. The fear that was so palpable in that face is gone. Can redemption come out of horrible tragedy? Yes. It can. That, Susan, is why we need to change our rhetoric. We can see victory and joy and hope come when abuse situations are dealt with. I hate what my rapist has done. I believe that he deserves to face the consequences of his sin. But, that doesn’t mean I hate him. I will never trust him. I will never be alone with him. And, he very likely will spend the rest of his life in prison. But, I want my life to reflect my God. Not the God of judgment that so many of you describe. But, the God of healing and renewal and grace.
You say that nobody would fault me or blame me. I share my story not for sympathy, but to say that yes I was blamed. By my pastor, by my (multiple) nouthetic counselors, by my own father. What happened to Tina is NOT unusual. I share my story to highlight that fact. Do I want or need sympathy? No. I have an amazing God who has guided me to a secular counselor and I am healing and honestly I now grieve for my abuser instead of hate. I have truly forgiven him and pray for his salvation.
My story is meant to bring a personal side to your views. I don’t think that you guys (Aaron and you are the first people I’m thinking of), realize how your comments can be twisted to blame victims. I’m saying that even though outwardly what you say may “sound” good, when it is put into practice it falls apart and causes damage. Your rhetoric has been repeated for years and years by many pastors and universities. Let’s change that rhetoric. Let’s recognize the flaws.
We NEED to change our treatment of abuse victims. And, I know it hurts to have to acknowledge that maybe we have been wrong. But, I wish you could look into the eyes of a scared fragile broken child who has been abused and then ask them to repent of their sin. I have a picture of me taken with the man who raped me. A picture that traumatizes me to look at it. I was twenty years old when that picture was taken. The look of terror on my face as I am seen next to my abuser is palpable for anyone who sees it. But, but, but …that picture is now a sign of victory to me. Because my God. My great, amazing, God of the impossible has rescued me. The man is now facing life charges for rape of a minor. He will never touch me again. The fear that was so palpable in that face is gone. Can redemption come out of horrible tragedy? Yes. It can. That, Susan, is why we need to change our rhetoric. We can see victory and joy and hope come when abuse situations are dealt with. I hate what my rapist has done. I believe that he deserves to face the consequences of his sin. But, that doesn’t mean I hate him. I will never trust him. I will never be alone with him. And, he very likely will spend the rest of his life in prison. But, I want my life to reflect my God. Not the God of judgment that so many of you describe. But, the God of healing and renewal and grace.
Let’s say a man is having a sexual relationship with a relative…oh, perhaps his own step-mother. He attends the local IFB church. The pastor finds out about this relationship and the church disciplines the man out of the assembly. However, in this particular case, the man repents of his sin. Should he be allowed to return to church?
Imbeded in all the “I’m appalled” reading into people’s motives that has overtaken this thread (you’d think Aaron was actually the embodiment of Mr. Willis now), and all the threats to leave this site forever (I’d like to see if the earlier person reads this entry or not at some point), … there has been a reaccuring argument that the rapist, having repented, should not be allowed back at church… “period” is the word some have used. That’s a strange view of the church don’t you think?
As for this not being about Pastor Phelps…
While there are always going to be areas in which we (as pastors) can do things better, I am still going to argue that when all the facts of this case are known many of you who are slandering this pastor are going to have to do some repenting yourself…or maybe we should kick you out of church…period! :)
Seriously, take a deep breath here. No one, no one, no one is advocating/defending Mr. Willis. No one. Not one person. No one. The argument is whether Pastor Phelps did the right thing and because not all the facts are known to just about every person in the argument, it is somewhat ludicrous for the posts to be made in the first place…which was my primary argument at the beginning. When all the facts are known, if you think Pastor Phelps did wrong, then you should do what your conscience leads you to do knowing the Biblical admonitions about chastising a pastor (1 Timothy).
Matt
Imbeded in all the “I’m appalled” reading into people’s motives that has overtaken this thread (you’d think Aaron was actually the embodiment of Mr. Willis now), and all the threats to leave this site forever (I’d like to see if the earlier person reads this entry or not at some point), … there has been a reaccuring argument that the rapist, having repented, should not be allowed back at church… “period” is the word some have used. That’s a strange view of the church don’t you think?
As for this not being about Pastor Phelps…
While there are always going to be areas in which we (as pastors) can do things better, I am still going to argue that when all the facts of this case are known many of you who are slandering this pastor are going to have to do some repenting yourself…or maybe we should kick you out of church…period! :)
Seriously, take a deep breath here. No one, no one, no one is advocating/defending Mr. Willis. No one. Not one person. No one. The argument is whether Pastor Phelps did the right thing and because not all the facts are known to just about every person in the argument, it is somewhat ludicrous for the posts to be made in the first place…which was my primary argument at the beginning. When all the facts are known, if you think Pastor Phelps did wrong, then you should do what your conscience leads you to do knowing the Biblical admonitions about chastising a pastor (1 Timothy).
Matt
Since you seem to have more first-hand knowledge of the situation than most, would you please tell me what leads you to conclude that the man repented?
Did he go to the legal authorities and confess his sole responsibility for the crime of rape before being allowed back into the church?
Did he go before the church and confess his sole responsibility for the sin of rape before being allowed back into the church?
I wouldn’t argue such a man should never be allowed back in church even if he had repented (although I believe such people should be killed slowly and painfully—perhaps with a millstone—in which case the issue of returning to the church wouldn’t come up). I just would like to have some reason to believe there has been actual, Biblical repentance before that happened.
Did he go to the legal authorities and confess his sole responsibility for the crime of rape before being allowed back into the church?
Did he go before the church and confess his sole responsibility for the sin of rape before being allowed back into the church?
I wouldn’t argue such a man should never be allowed back in church even if he had repented (although I believe such people should be killed slowly and painfully—perhaps with a millstone—in which case the issue of returning to the church wouldn’t come up). I just would like to have some reason to believe there has been actual, Biblical repentance before that happened.
Sadly, IFB attracts weirdos and “baser sort” crowds.
I have grown up in IFB my whole life. Some GARBC, some Hyles, some off-shoot of the SOTL crowd. I am still IFB. It would be a lie to say we do not have a faulty system in weeding out perverts and abusers. What we have here is just another typical IFB scandal and now the “world” is going to “take us to town” with it.
I think we are in a mess. What happens when a Fundamental Baptist leaves the IFB? What does he become? Whatever that is…..count me in.
I have grown up in IFB my whole life. Some GARBC, some Hyles, some off-shoot of the SOTL crowd. I am still IFB. It would be a lie to say we do not have a faulty system in weeding out perverts and abusers. What we have here is just another typical IFB scandal and now the “world” is going to “take us to town” with it.
I think we are in a mess. What happens when a Fundamental Baptist leaves the IFB? What does he become? Whatever that is…..count me in.
I believe we would all be better served to focus on the philosophy of how we should and should not deal with these things.
The tragedy of the New Hampshire situation is…
1). Young girl molested.
2). Situation mishandled on some levels (some debate about how much and by whom).
3). Ongoing impact on the lives of the victim, the perpetrator, the church, and Pastor Phelps.
4). Bad PR.
The extended impact includes the question…
5). Is there a pattern in churches like all of ours that lends itself to these situations?
Productive discussion would focus on how we prevent these things from happening in the future, and how we should deal with them if they do. As for Pastor Phelps and the New Hampshire situation, none of us can know the truth but those who were there. We do not possess investigatory power. Leave it in the hands of the police (spotty but credible), the press (interesting, but sensational), and ultimately, the Lord (omniscient, and just).
Meanwhile, let’s focus on making sure this is the last such expose’ report from one of our churches, by protecting our little ones, or at least dealing credibly with any more tragedies. Think millstones, people. I hope they can’t be used on those who fail to protect.
The tragedy of the New Hampshire situation is…
1). Young girl molested.
2). Situation mishandled on some levels (some debate about how much and by whom).
3). Ongoing impact on the lives of the victim, the perpetrator, the church, and Pastor Phelps.
4). Bad PR.
The extended impact includes the question…
5). Is there a pattern in churches like all of ours that lends itself to these situations?
Productive discussion would focus on how we prevent these things from happening in the future, and how we should deal with them if they do. As for Pastor Phelps and the New Hampshire situation, none of us can know the truth but those who were there. We do not possess investigatory power. Leave it in the hands of the police (spotty but credible), the press (interesting, but sensational), and ultimately, the Lord (omniscient, and just).
Meanwhile, let’s focus on making sure this is the last such expose’ report from one of our churches, by protecting our little ones, or at least dealing credibly with any more tragedies. Think millstones, people. I hope they can’t be used on those who fail to protect.
Discussion