“All other taxpayers pay more because clergy receive this privileged benefit”

Let’s cut their taxes too!! :bigsmile:

It’s time to drain the swamp…

How would the complainant prove that others pay more because of this tax break for the clergy?

I don’t think that is true, and I think it is irrelevant. This situations could be applied to a lot of things, like the child tax credit, the graduated income tax, itemization, mortgage interest deduction, etc.

that groups like this can make such claims is that the average American knows little to nothing about economics.

But the late U.S. Rep. Peter Mack, Jr. declared at the making of the amendment that the benefit levels the playing field in a “godless world.”

“Certainly, in these times when we are being threatened by a godless and antireligious world movement we should correct this discrimination against certain ministers of the gospel who are carrying on such a courageous fight against this foe. Certainly this is not too much to do for these people who are caring for our spiritual welfare,” Mack affirmed.

What a lame response.

To me, it seems illogical to give the church or clergy (depending how you look at it) that deduction. I am not sure of any other entity that can do anything similar. For example, a business owner cannot get paid a housing allowance to avoid taxes. To me, this is not an issue of attacking the church as it is just basic fairness. Either everyone should get it or no one IMO.

A similar situation that is not fair involves social security. Many pastors opt out of social security without the legal justification to do so. This is what they have to agree to:

I certify that I am conscientiously opposed to, or because of my religious principles I am opposed to, the acceptance (for services I perform as a minister, member of religious order not under a vow of poverty, or a Christian Science practitioner) of any public insurance that makes payments in the event of death, disability, old age, or retirement; or that, makes payments toward the cost of, or provides services for, medical care. (Public insurance includes insurance systems established by the Social Security Act.)…Under penalties of perjury, I declare that I have examined this application and to the best of my knowledge and belief it is true and correct.

In my talks with clergy, almost always, when they opt out, they do so not because of this specific objection but because they think SS is a bad investment.

It is entirely reasonable for both of these loopholes to be closed in my opinion. The housing allowance can be cut out completely and clergy should be challenged on their SS exemption. On in legitimate cases, should they be allowed to opt out.

Isn’t clergy being categorized as self-employed a more sensible reason for such deductions? If I am self-employed and use my car, home, computer, phone, etc for business, then I can deduct the price of these items as well as charges for their use.

So since ministers are considered self-employed, tax deductible allowances for home, car, office space, etc… used as part of their vocation isn’t a ‘violation’ of ‘separation of church & state’.

On a side note, we could do away with ALL of this nonsense with some serious tax reform.

http://caosblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/fairtax.jpg

Happy New Year! I’ll be sure to look around today and see if I can think of a place or two where we might consider raising your taxes ;) ;)

[GregH] I am not sure of any other entity that can do anything similar. For example, a business owner cannot get paid a housing allowance to avoid taxes.

It is my understanding that the housing allowance exemption applies to ministers and military. The rationale for this exemption (if anything in the federal tax code can be considered rational) is that both move frequently and have significant housing expense that other types of employees do not necessarily have.

Regarding Social Security, please don’t start this debate. The matter of how to opt out has been tested by the courts and world-class attorneys and accountants. If you have a beef with it, call someone who is an authority. Debating the ins and outs of it here is just plain silly. 8-)

There is a huge difference between a self-employed person taking the home office deduction and what clergy do. In the first case, you can only deduct a percentage based on what part of the house is used exclusively for business—maybe 10-20%. Clergy can get 100% of their housing expense free and clear of taxes even if no work every gets done there.

Amen to Susan!!

[GregH]… even if no work every gets done there.

Now, there is the real problem for some clergy!! :p :p :p

[Paul J. Scharf] Regarding Social Security, please don’t start this debate. The matter of how to opt out has been tested by the courts and world-class attorneys and accountants. If you have a beef with it, call someone who is an authority. Debating the ins and outs of it here is just plain silly. 8-)

Just who do you consider an authority Paul? Is Crown Financial Ministries good enough? Here is their opinion: http://www.crown.org/library/ViewArticle.aspx?ArticleId=690

[GregH] There is a huge difference between a self-employed person taking the home office deduction and what clergy do. In the first case, you can only deduct a percentage based on what part of the house is used exclusively for business—maybe 10-20%. Clergy can get 100% of their housing expense free and clear of taxes even if no work every gets done there.

All of the full-time clergy I know do a significant amount of ‘work’ at home- they accept phone calls day or night, have informal meetings and counseling sessions, house out-of-town speakers and missionaries on furlough, study at the table, in the living room, in bed… the 24/7 nature of full-time ministry IMO gives them ample reason to qualify for such a deduction.

All self-employed people do work in every room of the house; certainly, many work as much as clergy if not more. But that does not qualify them to take a full housing deduction. The IRS says that you have to use the part of the house you deduct EXCLUSIVELY for business. The same goes for computers, phones, etc.

[GregH] All self-employed people do work in every room of the house; certainly, many work as much as clergy if not more. But that does not qualify them to take a full housing deduction. The IRS says that you have to use the part of the house you deduct EXCLUSIVELY for business. The same goes for computers, phones, etc.

I know many self-employed people, and none of them spread their work all over the house, nor do they take business calls at home ‘after hours’. They also aren’t on call 24/7. They can easily calculate their deductions because they keep their business life separate- I can’t see a full-time pastor being able to do this.

But however you feel about clergy and deductions, one person’s deductions do not increase taxes for others. That’s ridiculous. If Annie Laurie Gaylor had two thoughts at the same time they could throw each other a surprise party.

[Susan R] I know many self-employed people, and none of them spread their work all over the house, nor do they take business calls at home ‘after hours’. They also aren’t on call 24/7. They can easily calculate their deductions because they keep their business life separate- I can’t see a full-time pastor being able to do this.

You must not have much experience with self employed people. I can assure you that many self-employed people do work like dogs, take calls after hours and are on call 24/7. For that matter, employees of every stripe. And by the way, one of the biggest challenges for business owners is separating business from personal life. And they cannot take a full housing deduction while clergy can. I just think that fairness would not be a bad thing.

[GregH] You must not have much experience with self employed people.

Well, I’ve been one on and off for 30 years.

I can assure you that many self-employed people do work like dogs, take calls after hours and are on call 24/7. For that matter, employees of every stripe. And by the way, one of the biggest challenges for business owners is separating business from personal life. And they cannot take a full housing deduction while clergy can. I just think that fairness would not be a bad thing.

I am sure many self-employed people work very hard, think about work and do things ‘off the clock’- but I simply do not think they are comparable. To each his own opinion on that part of this topic.

And now a word from our sponsors-

http://fairtax.us/fairtaxus.gif

The tax breaks under the IRS regs are all more or less subjective. Some passed to assist this group, others passed for political expedience, etc. The whole system is more or less unfair.

Why would we want to take a tax break away from a group that, in general, is underpaid for what they are (or in some cases, ought to be,) doing?