A Few Answers to SharperIron Critics
Should we answer critics or ignore them? Though critics should not be lumped in with fools too hastily, Proverbs 26:4-5 might be of some help in answering this question. Apparently, sometimes we should not answer fools, but sometimes we should. Given the number of leadership experts who say, “Never answer the critics because…” as well as the number who say, “You have to answer your critics because…,” I’m guessing that what’s true of fools is also true of critics in this case: sometimes we shouldn’t answer them, but sometimes we should.
Of course, we should listen to our critics first and weigh their criticism. But when listening to a critic reveals a consistent pattern of factual error (and more than a little evidence of malice), further listening is poor stewardship of our time. That narrows the options to “tuning out” or responding.
Public criticism over an extended period of time narrows the options even further. The likelihood increases that people unfamiliar with the facts will encounter accusations and believe them. Actual damage could occur.
Eventually the question is no longer if we should answer the critics but how to answer them without further empowering them—or perhaps, how to answer them in a way that empowers them less than not answering them! One good way might be to target falsehoods without specifically targeting their source.
So here goes. In most cases, these are criticisms that have been leveled publicly against SI or the team for many months, but some more recent accusations receive attention here as well. I’ll put them all in question form.
Is SharperIron going to go under financially?
Sure—doesn’t everything eventually? But the site has not asked for money in over a year. Last August we had a fund drive to pay for 2009’s server costs. As we enter the third quarter of 2010, we’ve no need to do that this year. But what does that prove, either way? Sometimes the wicked prosper (Ps. 37:7) and sometimes the faithful languish (pretty much the whole book of Jeremiah) and sometimes vice versa.
Did SharperIron misrepresent its membership total?
In May of 2009, the membership database had over 4,000 accounts, many of which had been inactive for quite some time. On June 1, 2009, the site went live with new software we nicknamed “3.0.” Due to unexpected data migration problems, we couldn’t get those accounts into the new software in any timely way. So we gave up and asked everyone to register again. From that point on, we had two membership databases. The old one is still on the server.
For some time after June of ‘09, the membership reporting page still had the old ballpark number of 4,000. At some point, I updated the page with more precise wording distinguishing between the two databases. Now we just report the number in the new database (at this moment, 1,387).
To one critic, having the original “4,000” out there for a while was both dishonest and criminal. And more precise reporting as we continued the transition wasn’t good enough either. But one fact remains: the night before we went to “3.0,” SharperIron, LLC owned a database with more than 4,000 member accounts, and after the move it still owned that database—and still owns it today. “SharperIron 3.0” was a nickname for new software, not the name of a new organization. “3.0” does not have members and never will.
I’m still waiting for the FTC to prosecute me for my crimes. But I’m not holding my breath.
Do the SharperIron team members (publisher, moderators, etc.) beat up on non-calvinists?
I’ve been publicly accused (recently by name) of doing this. I’m tempted to offer a cash reward for anyone who can find a thread where I attacked someone for not being a Calvinist or for expressing views contrary to Calvinism. I don’t think I’ve ever even claimed to be a Calvinist. Since some of the critics seem to have too much time on their hands, I invite them to see if they can find any place where I declared my views on Calvinism. It’s possible that I’ve done that somewhere, but it would take a while to find.
In reference to the team, the situation is a little more complex. Many of the team members are more Calvinistic than not, and in the area of Calvinist soteriology, some are very passionate about their beliefs on one point or several. But that’s OK. At SharperIron, the moderators are allowed to have opinions and express them. We’ve officially said so in the “About” information (though it could probably be made clearer), and that’s been standard practice here since SI launched in 2005.
For the record, Arminians (and neither-nor’s!) are welcome here. The doctrinal statement does not exclude them and we’ve never banned anyone for those views. You will find that Arminian or anti-Calvinist views are greeted with passionate rebuttals, but you are welcome to offer passionate counter-rebuttals.
To any non-Calvinist who is being ganged up on at any time: contact me and cry foul. I can’t really help it if the ratio is such that you’re outnumbered—the membership is open in that regard—but we’ve no desire to gang up on anyone. If you’re a non-Calvinist and want more folks standing with you, recruit some buddies to join the site.
Is SharperIron in love with the conservative evangelicals?
That sort of depends on whether you’re talking about the membership, the readership or the leadership. Members are all over the map on that one. Judging from the ‘09-‘10 reader survey, readers would be even more so. But that accusation is often targeted at the site leadership. Where do we stand?
I feel kind of silly answering this because I think the answer is obvious. But not everybody reads the forum threads, and some apparently read every fifth word or so (just enough to get things completely wrong). The attitude of everybody on the team that I’ve seen comment on the subject is that the McArthur, Mohler, Dever, Carson, Piper, Mahaney, etc. crowd has accomplished some really good things and appears destined to continue to do that. We appreciate much of these men’s work. I don’t know of anyone on the team who would deny that these men have some problems theologically and/or in their practice of separation. The “CEs” are not all the same, so it’s hard to generalize beyond that.
But in discussions about seeking closer ties with these leaders—and others like them—my own response has been pretty consistently tepid. I continue to not really understand why some are so passionate about seeking that kind of “emerging middle.” I’m not for lumping the CEs in with apostates, but my imagination doesn’t seem to be up to the task of envisioning what benefit there would be in “closer ties” (whatever exactly that means). I don’t see much to gain for fundamentalists, for the conservative evangelicals or for the body of Christ as whole. Since I’m not a believer in “bigger is better,” I tend to see larger coalitions as more dramatic but not more productive in any eternal sense.
“In love with the CEs”? Well, I don’t hate them. Maybe to the critics, that’s the same thing.
Has Aaron described the site as being for “fundamentalists of the conservative evangelical variety”?
I have to smile at that one. There’s a little switcheroo misquote there. In a few places I have described the site as being for, or consisting of, “conservative evangelicals of the fundamentalist variety.” I think in one place I went with “conservative evangelicals of the kind known historically as fundamentalists,” but that was pretty clunky. The aim in those descriptions is to help folks who know nothing at all about fundamentalism get some idea what the term means in reference to the site.
Since all who believe and promote the gospel are evangelicals (the term derives from euangelion, the Greek word for “gospel”), the site is certainly for evangelicals. Since our constituents are more conservative than most who claim the gospel, we’re also certainly conservative evangelicals. But since we’re also particular about separation (with varying understandings of the principle), we are in yet another subset: one called fundamentalists.
Maybe a diagram would be of some help.
Does the SI team unfairly moderate people they disagree with?
I don’t think we’ve ever had a “How we can moderate less fairly?” meeting. It’s our aim to be fair, and we put a lot of effort into looking for good balances, but we’d have to be fools to think we’re always successful. Sometimes the truth in a situation seems quite clear at the moment but looks very different a few days or weeks later. Sometimes the only thing that is clear is that we ought to intervene in a discussion, but we can’t work out among us what form that intervention should take. So sometimes we just have to pick an option and go for it, and hope for the best.
Everybody sees things through the filter of his or her own sympathies and prejudices. This is true of moderators but also of members posting in threads. So it’s all too easy for someone to believe he “got reffed” when a foul is called against him.
Interestingly, the most aggressive critic of our moderating efforts routinely and unilaterally removes—or refuses to post—comments at his own site if he doesn’t like what they say. At SI, your comment posts first and if there are issues, a team discusses them. Through that counsel, we seek to make wise choices.
We’re always looking for ways to do things better. One persistent goal is nurturing healthy tension while simultaneously reining in inappropriate or clearly unhelpful statements. But it’s an art, and none of us claim to be Michelangelo.
Conclusion
SI is not constantly under attack. As far as I know, the site’s enemies are few, and critics of the distorting or dishonest sort are even fewer. I don’t get angry phone calls (which kind of surprises me—but I certainly don’t mind!). If there are a whole lot of folks who think we’re a Very Bad Thing, they don’t seem to go out of their way to say so. To the few who seem determined to sling mud: well, sling if you must. I’m not slinging back—but occasionally we will rinse off a bit.
Aaron Blumer, SI’s site publisher, is a native of lower Michigan and a graduate of Bob Jones University (Greenville, SC) and Central Baptist Theological Seminary (Plymouth, MN). He, his wife, and their two children live in a small town in western Wisconsin, where he has pastored Grace Baptist Church (Boyceville, WI) since 2000. Prior to serving as a pastor, Aaron taught school in Stone Mountain, Georgia and worked in customer service and technical support for Unisys Corporation (Eagan, MN). He enjoys science fiction, music, and dabbling in software development.
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[Aaron Blumer] I remain skeptical there are many in the category Marc has described. The “older generation” fundamentalists I know of are pretty courageous guys.Hi Aaron,
I’m sure there are many of all ages who are “not fans” of the site or of Internet interaction in general, but that’s not the same thing.
I wouldn’t be too hasty… from my own experience a good number of guys - how to characterize them? Not ‘older generation’ but more ‘traditional’ fundamentalists or guys who would tend to take similar positions to me (call the ‘oxgoad fundamentalists’ if you like), but a good number of guys tend to view SI negatively.
I think that part of your underwhelming response is because this crowd isn’t really culturally attuned to on-line communities or on-line communication. Not exactly Luddites, they have computers, they have e-mail, but the culture just isn’t part of their psyche. They aren’t likely to respond to your challenge because 1) they haven’t even heard about it or 2) they don’t see the significance of such communications. To them, SI is an annoyance, distraction, time-waster, what have you. Maybe I should replace “SI” in that sentence with “blogs”. You should hear, for example, Dr Bob III talk about blogs. He really has a low view of them in general. (I was at a meeting with him a year or so ago and he had us go around the room introducing ourselves. I started this way: “My name is Don, I am a blogger…”)
I say all that to say that there is a culture that has adapted to online communication and there is one that simply doesn’t get it and doesn’t want to get it. In terms of ministerial or ecclesiastical philosophy, I am more attuned to the “doesn’t get it” crowd, but have been sort of a techno-geek and am an anomaly in that group because I am comfortable with online communities. (Though it could be argued that I am an annoyance to the SI culture, eh?)
Back to the point, my perception is that there is a pretty wide-spread disdain among preachers of my acquaintance for what goes on here. I think they should probably be a little more willing to listen to the perspectives of people who disagree with their views, but don’t think this disdaining viewpoint is isolated to only a few.
I would suggest as well that there is a bit of triumphalism amongst the online community (SI included) in thinking that their complaints against fundamentalism are unique to this generation. I heard the same complaints when I was in school over thirty years ago now. The difference is that now the internet makes it possible to air those complaints more publicly. Having heard those same complaints for a long time (and having chosen to reject them the first time around, over thirty years ago) many of the fellows of my age or older do not see these complaints as anything new, they see them as things they have answered to their own satisfaction a long time ago, and find their continuing presence more of an annoyance than anything else.
So… I doubt things will change much. I am personally willing to promote my point of view and willing to speak up against things I disagree with. Most others don’t think they have the time or inclination to do such things.
Maranatha!
Don Johnson
Jer 33.3
I recall hearing some of the same complaints about fundamentalism in my pre-internet years as well (in the 80’s). Only, depending on which complaints you’re referring to, I did believe them… well, I could see them with my own eyes (or had already). Assuming you’re not of the opinion that fundamentalism has no problems, I daresay you agree with some of them as well.
But if the dynamic is an attitude of “there is nothing to fix, therefore no point in these online discussions,” I’m not all that concerned if they feel disdain—because there’s really nothing I can do about that. I can’t pretend I don’t see any problems in order to bring that disdain to an end (and tell everyone else to pretend likewise).
On the other hand if the thinking is that there are things to fix but online discussions are not likely to fix them, that doesn’t concern me a great deal either… because I would mostly agree. I think the discussions have value because when you put them in writing it’s really not quite the same as your college dorm “bull sessions.” For one, the exercise of writing tends to require a bit more thinking (not always very much more!) but for another, it is easier to interact thoughtfully with ideas that are written down. Easier to take the time to analyze the arguments and weigh their merits. Of course many don’t bother to do this, but that’s hardly a good reason to deny everyone the opportunity.
And I think the discussions have already made a difference (though I do not believe the difference has been entirely positive). It’s just that they don’t have the power in themselves to fix anything. The contribution is indirect.
So no, I don’t make any claim that the weaknesses that are talked about are newly discovered or newly talked about. Newness is not the point, from my point of view.
Views expressed are always my own and not my employer's, my church's, my family's, my neighbors', or my pets'. The house plants have authorized me to speak for them, however, and they always agree with me.
[Don Johnson]This is the problem and this is why SI was started. When my concerns are met with, “that problem (complaint) has been raised before,” it really does not help anything. I have had that discussion before on here and it really is frustrating. Why is it OK to answer concerns in that way? Why is it OK to ignore problems within fundamentalism while pointing out everyone else’s (CE’s) problems. I agree that there are problems with many of the CE’s, but the Old Guard’s general refusal to address problems within Fundamentalism while wanting to point out every problem with CE’s seems pretty hypocritical. I have had this discussion before with some members of the “OG” but never can get past a refusal to admit and problems with fundamentalism or any good out of CE’s. That does not lead to helpful conversation, but it does explain why the OG’s may not care for this site.
I would suggest as well that there is a bit of triumphalism amongst the online community (SI included) in thinking that their complaints against fundamentalism are unique to this generation. I heard the same complaints when I was in school over thirty years ago now. The difference is that now the internet makes it possible to air those complaints more publicly. Having heard those same complaints for a long time (and having chosen to reject them the first time around, over thirty years ago) many of the fellows of my age or older do not see these complaints as anything new, they see them as things they have answered to their own satisfaction a long time ago, and find their continuing presence more of an annoyance than anything else.
[Aaron Blumer] Appreciate that, Don, but I’m still not completely clear on whether you believe there is “disdain” for what goes on here specifically or just disdain for what goes on in blogs in general.Personally, I think both attitudes exist. I think it is sort of disdain for blogs in general and SI in particular. I would also suggest that the SI culture today is probably different from the SI culture earlier on. I think some of the disdain (maybe a lot of it) is related to the earlier atmosphere.
[Aaron Blumer] I recall hearing some of the same complaints about fundamentalism in my pre-internet years as well (in the 80’s). Only, depending on which complaints you’re referring to, I did believe them… well, I could see them with my own eyes (or had already). Assuming you’re not of the opinion that fundamentalism has no problems, I daresay you agree with some of them as well.Yes, certainly. I am not saying complaints aren’t legitimate. My argument, however, is against solving the problems by chucking fundamentalism and/or embracing evangelicalism. My argument is that we need to make correctives in our own ministries while advocating for a vigorous and biblical fundamentalist philosophy. I don’t believe the solution to the complaints is found by abandoning fundamentalism.
[Aaron Blumer] But if the dynamic is an attitude of “there is nothing to fix, therefore no point in these online discussions,” I’m not all that concerned if they feel disdain—because there’s really nothing I can do about that. I can’t pretend I don’t see any problems in order to bring that disdain to an end (and tell everyone else to pretend likewise).I don’t think that there is an attitude that there is nothing to fix. Maybe there are some who think that, but not most, at least not most of my acquaintance. I would say most would think online discussion won’t fix them.
On the other hand if the thinking is that there are things to fix but online discussions are not likely to fix them, that doesn’t concern me a great deal either… because I would mostly agree.
I do think there is value to online discussion. It is a new media and largely misunderstood. And it takes time to develop skills (and to learn how to keep one’s cool in the heated atmosphere of instantaneous responses and the easy offenses that can be taken with real or perceived insults - we have to remember that online discussion isn’t edited by someone else…) But those with good ideas can become influential if they can express them well.
Bottom line: As far as criticism of SI goes, I think it is good for you to listen to see if improvements could be made, but in the end, you don’t have to answer the critics. You shouldn’t be intimidated to be something you are not.
Maranatha!
Don Johnson
Jer 33.3
[Bob Nutzhorn] When my concerns are met with, “that problem (complaint) has been raised before,” it really does not help anything. I have had that discussion before on here and it really is frustrating. Why is it OK to answer concerns in that way? Why is it OK to ignore problems within fundamentalism while pointing out everyone else’s (CE’s) problems.Hi Bob
I don’t think that is what I was saying… I wasn’t saying “these are old problems and we don’t need to address them”.
My argument is usually with the solutions offered, not with the complaints.
p.s. OOPS! I see we are posting on top of each other! Thanks for the “Well Said”. I am not sure if this comment adds anything to the discussion now!
Maranatha!
Don Johnson
Jer 33.3
I agree that is not what you are saying; however, that is what some I have conversed with before have basically said - either by their actions or words. One conversation I am thinking of on here resulted in the person just leaving the site. That is what i have seen happen too often.
Not much real disagreement on this particular point.
If the survey is any indication, most of SI’s readers (and probably most of its participating posters) are for keeping what’s best in fundamentalism while fixing what’s broken. The rub is determining what’s broken and then how to fix it. And how that relates to “movement” vs. the essence of fundamentalist convictions and practices.
Views expressed are always my own and not my employer's, my church's, my family's, my neighbors', or my pets'. The house plants have authorized me to speak for them, however, and they always agree with me.
[Don Johnson] Yes, certainly. I am not saying complaints aren’t legitimate. My argument, however, is against solving the problems by chucking fundamentalism and/or embracing evangelicalism. My argument is that we need to make correctives in our own ministries while advocating for a vigorous and biblical fundamentalist philosophy. I don’t believe the solution to the complaints is found by abandoning fundamentalism.between observing the problems in Fundamentalism, noting some things the CE’s have done right, and being perceived as abandoning or betraying Fundamentalism by pointing them out. I’m using Bro. Johnson’s post as a jumping off point- not necessarily addressing this post to him specifically- but I’d welcome a response.
What it eventually seems to come down to is the weakness of movements in general- movements are made up of individuals, but movements also tend to be known for or defined by their extremes. Just like the contrasts we’ve seen in the various positions on textual criticism and preservation, there are many layers of Fundamentalism, as well as Conservative Evangelicalism. There are times when I have more in common with a CE than with a Fundy, and vice/versa. But if/when I do acknowledge those times, it certainly isn’t a betrayal of Fundamentalism. IMO, it is giving credit where credit is due. I mean, to put a personal point on it, I’m an ultra-conservative Fundy of the KJVP stripe, and am currently reading and enjoying books by C. J.Mahaney, Kevin DeYoung, Voddie Baucham, and Alex & Brett Harris. The lions, the tigers, the bears- oh my. http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys.php] http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-confused002.gif
The only thing we all really have in common (as Fundamentalists), at least in my experience, is the emphasis on separating from those engaged in unrepentant immorality and heresy. And even then there are differences as to what that looks like, because some advocate that separating from the individual is enough, while others believe you should separate to the nth degree from anyone vaguely associated with the person in question.
Some people accuse those in the middle of being on the fence- but I think many times being in the middle means balancing the doctrine, principle, or practice with the details of real life situations that don’t always fit snugly into the Fundy box. It certainly seems that some believe there isn’t enough room on the planet for people of good conscience to draw different conclusions about or applications of Scripture(within certain doctrinal limits, of course), and they wish vehemently to abolish to eternal torment anyone who doesn’t agree with them.
Seriously, who actually refers to themselves as new evangelicals anymore? The old school want you to think that they are the true manifestation of the original fundamentalists. They aren’t. Really, the old guard types are really new fundamentalists. Do we need a history lesson in what controversy created fundamentalism? It was modernism. It wasn’t believers trying to engage the world and get their acceptance. The younger fundamentalists want to be true to the original fundamentalists, not the evolution of what happened in the 1950s.
So when we draw lines based on theology first, it irks the old guard, because to them separation is primary. It is okay to have all kinds of aberrant theology, but as long as separation is embraced, then you are in. How silly, foolish, unbiblical and absolutely pathetic. Some of these men actually think of themselves as more conservative because they are anticalvinist, antilordship, and anti new texts. Fundamentalism was NEVER drawn around those lines. It is not more conservative; it is more strict. They two are not the same.
Monte and others like him complain that SI has become a place for lordship, calvinism, and new texts. It is really a sad commentary on the new fundamentalists who tried to restrict such things. Thank God that a biblical view of salvation (lordship), view of providence (calvinism), and text issues have been embraced by the younger fundamentalists. Thankfully SI has given people who actually want to discuss scripture a place to do so. The old guard has been controlling information and interpreting it for the people for 60 years. Their stranglehold on information is officially over. This is why you are seeing so many reject their views on separation. They misapply the texts, misrepresent those they separate from, and in general fumble each possession.
It is rumored that the chicago mob thought that everything west of chicago was chicago. I know it is the chicago way to break kneecaps and silence the opposition. Fundamentalism should not find its seat of power after the chicago mindset.
1 Kings 8:60 - so that all the peoples of the earth may know that the LORD is God and that there is no other.
Maranatha!
Don Johnson
Jer 33.3
Regarding the slander false charge, do you want quotes?
Monte
”SI has become a haven for Calvinistic, anti-traditional text people. (If you think about it, there is a strange irony in that: John Calvin used the traditional texts, believing them to be God’s Word! His biggest fans today consisently reject the text he used!)”
Me
“Monte and others like him complain that SI has become a place for lordship, calvinism, and new texts.”
1 Kings 8:60 - so that all the peoples of the earth may know that the LORD is God and that there is no other.
You use words like “being lied to, deceived, and misinformed”. Those are serious words. I don’t think they are true, but if you do, you should be running, not walking, to the nearest exits.
I would posit that it is posts like yours that exactly fit the complaints “the old guard” has about SI. I think that in general there are less posts like yours these days and that SI is somewhat less characterized by them, but it is exactly that attitude that they complain about. I guess you have at least supplied something I can point to for Aaron.
BTW, if you think Marc Monte is the old guard, your viewpoint is pretty limited.
Anyway, I would suggest that you might collate a few of your posts and get several godly people (not your best friends) to evaluate them for tone, hyperbole, offensive terms, etc. It might be an eye-opener.
Maranatha!
Don Johnson
Jer 33.3
Something I learned very quickly as a parent was that I must model the behavior I’d like to see in my kids. I can’t expect them to exhibit self-control when I’m wiggin’ out over every infraction. In the same manner, I don’t see how a spiritual leader can advocate for moderation in appearance and behavior when their lives exhibit excess after excess- and then they expect a pass because they are ‘anointed’. I didn’t get it then, and I don’t get it now.
I didn’t run screaming from Fundamentalism, because the idea itself is sound, and something I can aspire to. But as with any idea or movement, there are those who appropriate it for their own use, and some have used separation from immorality and heresy, an element somewhat unique to Fundamentalism, to intimidate, manipulate, and control others. These tactics, as well as the men who use/d them, should be called into question. There’s nothing spiritual or miraculous about ‘decisions’ made because of intense pressure to conform to an ideal or standard, and nothing of value in loyalty obtained by instilling fear of reprisal. And what’s worse is that some of these charges are so difficult to prove. After all, no one has been sending handy dandy death threats in writing or nailing cats to garage doors. The tactics used are very subtle, and actually typical of female aggression.
http://www.ncsl.org/default.aspx?tabid=16416] Female BullyingAlso read http://www.rachelsimmons.com/books-and-articles/odd-girl-out/ Odd Girl Out by Rachel Simmons.
Although the traditional bullying model has been particularly male-centered and focused on physical aggression, more attention is being paid to bullying by girls. Boys generally bully in direct and physical ways; girls who bully often do so indirectly by teasing and spreading rumors.
Researchers in the area of female bullying suggest that there are three different types of adolescent female aggression: relational, indirect and social. Examples of relational aggression include damage or the threat of damage to a relationship, friendship or group inclusion; ignoring someone to punish or get one’s way; and using negative body language or facial expressions. Indirect aggression allows the perpetrator to avoid confronting her target and makes it seem as though there has been no intent to hurt the recipient. The bully uses others to inflict pain by spreading rumors. Finally, social aggression damages the recipient’s self-esteem or social status within a group by rumor spreading or social exclusion.
Although relational aggression can be as psychologically or emotionally destructive as the more direct and physical bullying behavior of boys, many school harassment policies focus on physical or direct violence and do not address relational aggression. In addition, female bullying is less likely to come to the attention of school personnel, even though students report that it is common.
Any of these tactics sound familiar to others? Ironic, is it not?
Discussion