Why Certain Types of Music Make Our Brains Sing, and Others Don’t
“our prediction of musical events remains inexorably bound to our musical upbringing. To explore this phenomenon, a group of researchers met with the Sámi people, who inhabit the region stretching between the northernmost reaches of Sweden and the Kola Peninsula in Russia.” - Neroscience News
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[RajeshG]Well then, what HAS been your point when you say that professional occultists pass on fully authentic information about their fully authentic practices? I’m still not understanding it and you haven’t been forthcoming in explaining it. Do you even have a point in making that statement?I have never done what you wrongly claim in these comments. You are the one who has misread over and over again what I have said to incorrectly repeatedly suggest my holding things that I have never said.
Holding a particular position concerning whether occultists can or cannot lie, etc. has never been my point.
[RajeshG]So what? The fact that Pharaoh’s magicians did something does not mean that EVERY occultist is like Pharaoh’s magicians. Some people desire to be occultists and even claim to be occultists, but their mode of operation really is “just sleight of hand, smoke and mirrors, trickery, or any other such thing.” Do you deny that those people exist?The Spirit reveals that Pharaoh’s magicians used enchantments to effect demonic miracles (Exod. 7:11, 22; 8:7). Those magicians were fully authentic professional occultists (there is zero basis for anyone to hold that they were merely shysters, charlatans, fakes, etc. who just pretended to be magicians, etc.).
When those fully authentic professional occultists used their enchantments to effect those miracles, they engaged in fully authentic occult practices. No one has any basis to legitimately hold that what they did was just sleight of hand, smoke and mirrors, trickery, or any other such thing.
When those fully authentic professional occultists used those enchantments, they had all the fully authentic information that they needed to do so, and they knew fully authentically how to do everything that they needed to do to use those enchantments to do those miracles.
These fully authentic professional occultists did not get any of their information about how to do those fully authentic miracles from the Bible, from God, from any godly prophet, or from any other godly source.
They did not need to have anything from the Bible to fully authentically know what they needed to know and to do what they fully authentically did when they used those enchantments.
These fully authentic professional occultists were fully authentically able to transmit all the fully authentic information about how to do those fully authentic occult practices that they engaged in when they used those enchantments to do those miracles.
In this manner, not just in their case, but similarly also in many other cases in Scripture, we can know with absolute certainty that fully authentic occultists engaged in fully authentic occult activities without any need for any information from the Bible.
Moreover, they could and undoubtedly did transmit all that fully authentic information to others about those fully authentic practices without any need for anything from the Bible.
Also, some fully authentic occultists claim to have the fully authentic practice of contacting dead relatives for people. Is that actually a fully authentic practice?
[RajeshG]How is it NOT corporate worship? We are gathered together and we are worshiping.The Bible never talks about what you do in Awanas as being corporate worship.
Besides, one of the verses you used earlier to support your idea of a “volume rule” for corporate worship was Ps. 149:5 Let the saints be joyful in glory: let them sing aloud upon their beds. Unless people are bringing their beds to the worship gathering, that verse isn’t about corporate worship.
[Kevin Miller]That actually strengthens my point because it shows that even in what appears to be a non-worship setting, God still wants them to sing aloud and not whisper.Besides, one of the verses you used earlier to support your idea of a “volume rule” for corporate worship was Ps. 149:5 Let the saints be joyful in glory: let them sing aloud upon their beds. Unless people are bringing their beds to the worship gathering, that verse isn’t about corporate worship.
[Kevin Miller]So what that such people exist? That does not change at all the profound ramifications of what Scripture reveals about Pharaoh’s magicians and many other fully authentic professional occultists.So what? The fact that Pharaoh’s magicians did something does not mean that EVERY occultist is like Pharaoh’s magicians. Some people desire to be occultists and even claim to be occultists, but their mode of operation really is “just sleight of hand, smoke and mirrors, trickery, or any other such thing.” Do you deny that those people exist?
[RajeshG]So what that such people exist? That does not change at all the profound ramifications of what Scripture reveals about Pharaoh’s magicians and many other fully authentic professional occultists.
It means the following:
1. We need to be able to discern true occultists from those that are fake, to know which practices God hates and that we must avoid.
2. To do so, we actually have to do some evaluation (which will require research and understanding), not just accept what is said by any of these people. Just as prophets in the OT were tested so that the people could know which are true, we need to do the same, whether in regard to false prophets of Christianity or practitioners of other religions. This is particularly true when the other religion claims to be the true Christianity, and things look good until examined closely. Satan is particularly good at this type of deception.
3. Once we find true occultists, we also know that they can lie as well as tell the truth, so their claims must be evaluated like any other.
4. Even when we locate true occultists, the circumstances of life are so common that we cannot avoid everything done or used by an occultist just because they do so. If I were, for example, to find out that an occult group somewhere on earth required their practitioners to wear black leather jackets for all their ceremonies, that doesn’t make the wearing of a black leather jacket uniquely an occult practice and wrong for me to do. If they were in my local context, I might avoid doing so to make it clear I’m not associated with them, but that would be for the sake of others’ consciences, not my own.
The same would apply to the eating of certain foods, the use of objects, chemicals, etc., or use of particular musical forms. Misuse or abuse of something God has made and given to us, whether food, music, or even marital relations, does not spoil the proper use of those things when used as God intended. Romans 14 means that context matters, but that chapter also makes clear that the things themselves are not the issue.
I probably wouldn’t disagree with you about avoiding to the extent possible any contact or association with the occult. We do have to know enough, however, to be able to do so, especially when it isn’t blatantly obvious. We cannot just assume that anything someone who claims to be an occultist is telling us must be true, and we can’t possibly avoid everything in life that may somehow, somewhere, be associated with an occult practice. To do so would mean having to leave this world.
Dave Barnhart
[dcbii]I will respond to your other points later when I have more time. There is zero biblical basis for anyone to claim legitimately that all kinds of instrumental music are “particular musical forms” that “God has made and given to us.” There also is zero biblical basis to hold validly that every kind of instrumental music has its “proper use of [it] when used as God intended.” If you believe otherwise, you have the burden of proof of showing from the Bible how and why these statements are true for every kind of instrumental music.4. Even when we locate true occultists, the circumstances of life are so common that we cannot avoid everything done or used by an occultist just because they do so. If I were, for example, to find out that an occult group somewhere on earth required their practitioners to wear black leather jackets for all their ceremonies, that doesn’t make the wearing of a black leather jacket uniquely an occult practice and wrong for me to do. If they were in my local context, I might avoid doing so to make it clear I’m not associated with them, but that would be for the sake of others’ consciences, not my own.
The same would apply to the eating of certain foods, the use of objects, chemicals, etc., or use of particular musical forms. Misuse or abuse of something God has made and given to us, whether food, music, or even marital relations, does not spoil the proper use of those things when used as God intended. Romans 14 means that context matters, but that chapter also makes clear that the things themselves are not the issue.
Furthermore, once you have proven that both of these statements are true biblically, you then have to prove biblically that it is also true that every kind of instrumental music is acceptable to God for use in corporate worship.
[RajeshG]There is zero biblical basis for anyone to claim legitimately that all kinds of instrumental music are “particular musical forms” that “God has made and given to us.” There also is zero biblical basis to hold validly that every kind of instrumental music has its “proper use of [it] when used as God intended.” If you believe otherwise, you have the burden of proof of showing from the Bible how and why these statements are true for every kind of instrumental music.
Furthermore, once you have proven that both of these statements are true biblically, you then have to prove biblically that it is also true that every kind of instrumental music is acceptable to God for use in corporate worship.
I won’t continue down this path, but will briefly respond to refer you to a comment I made pages (also seems “ages”) ago that this is down to a version of the RPW question. Is what is not prohibited legitimate, or must anything legitimate be that which is commanded, commended, or given as an example? The philosophy taken on this question is at the foundation of what you are saying here, and how you answer that question will also answer this one. Suffice it to say we appear to be on opposite sides of this one. I don’t think that further discussion here will change that.
Dave Barnhart
[dcbii]You made statements to the effect that God is the Creator/Maker of all kinds of music. That is a foundational theological claim that does not have anything to do with the RWP question. Since you made the claim, you really should be prepared to defend your claim with thorough and careful biblical argumentation.I won’t continue down this path, but will briefly respond to refer you to a comment I made pages (also seems “ages”) ago that this is down to a version of the RPW question. Is what is not prohibited legitimate, or must anything legitimate be that which is commanded, commended, or given as an example? The philosophy taken on this question is at the foundation of what you are saying here, and how you answer that question will also answer this one. Suffice it to say we appear to be on opposite sides of this one. I don’t think that further discussion here will change that.
[dcbii]I think that the position that you have taken in these points is unbiblical and very dangerous. Demons are supernatural spirit beings who act in supernatural ways in realms that humans cannot understand and cannot examine.It means the following:
1. We need to be able to discern true occultists from those that are fake, to know which practices God hates and that we must avoid.
2. To do so, we actually have to do some evaluation (which will require research and understanding), not just accept what is said by any of these people. Just as prophets in the OT were tested so that the people could know which are true, we need to do the same, whether in regard to false prophets of Christianity or practitioners of other religions. This is particularly true when the other religion claims to be the true Christianity, and things look good until examined closely. Satan is particularly good at this type of deception.
3. Once we find true occultists, we also know that they can lie as well as tell the truth, so their claims must be evaluated like any other.
How then are you going to determine validly which activities involve actual contact with and activity by demons and which ones do not?
For example, God has not told us anything about the enchantments that Pharaoh’s magicians used to do those miracles. What exactly did they do when they used them? How did they know what to do? Who taught them to do what they did? None of these questions are answerable by any ordinary humans regardless of how well they know the Bible or not.
[RajeshG]Actually, it’s faulty logic to think that this verse would prohibit whispered singing. A positive command to sing aloud does not equal a negative command to refrain from whispering. Look at the location of the singing. Does the positive command to sing “upon their beds” equal a negative command to never sing anywhere else? Of course not. Just because one is commanded to sing upon their bed, that doesn’t mean one can ONLY sing on their bed. Just because one is commanded to sing “aloud” doesn’t mean that one can ONLY sing aloud.That actually strengthens my point because it shows that even in what appears to be a non-worship setting, God still wants them to sing aloud and not whisper.
[RajeshG]So what that such people exist? That does not change at all the profound ramifications of what Scripture reveals about Pharaoh’s magicians and many other fully authentic professional occultists.
You still haven’t explained what you mean by “fully authentic.” If Bob the occultist tells you he can contact your dead relative, can you count on him to be :”fully authentic?” Yes, the Bible does describe some occultists, and because the Bible is inspired we can be sure that everything the bible says about them is true. The Bible doesn’t mention Bob the occultist however, so how can you be sure that HE is a “fully authentic” one? I’m sure he would claim to be, so is his word good enough?
You make it sound as if “the profound ramifications of what Scripture reveals” means that I have to trust Bob the occultist.
[Kevin Miller]So, by your “logic,” Christians are free to observe the Lord’s Supper with French fries and soda pop since there are no negative commands to refrain from doing so, right?Actually, it’s faulty logic to think that this verse would prohibit whispered singing. A positive command to sing aloud does not equal a negative command to refrain from whispering. Look at the location of the singing. Does the positive command to sing “upon their beds” equal a negative command to never sing anywhere else? Of course not. Just because one is commanded to sing upon their bed, that doesn’t mean one can ONLY sing on their bed. Just because one is commanded to sing “aloud” doesn’t mean that one can ONLY sing aloud.
[RajeshG]That’s a silly comparison. There are direct instructions for the Lord’s Supper. Of course, as long as the bread and wine is provided, then people are free to fellowship together afterwards with French fries and soda pop if they desire, as long as there is enough for everyone..So, by your “logic,” Christians are free to observe the Lord’s Supper with French fries and soda pop since there are no negative commands to refrain from doing so, right?
I was referencing YOUR logic regarding the verse about singing in one’s bed. The verse commands us to sing there. Since you believe that a positive command to sing in one’s bed means that people can’t sing anywhere else, then I hope you have comfortable beds at your worship services. I personally don’t believe that one can only sing in their beds, but that is what the verse says, so if my logic is wrong and yours is right, then you must only believe in bed-singing.
[Kevin Miller]Wrong. There are other statements about singing in other places, especially in the Lord’s House so my position is not based on that one statement. You, on the other hand, do not have a single statement from God anywhere in the Bible about singing that you can legitimately use to justify your use of “whispered” singing. Your so-called logic is the one that is flawed.That’s a silly comparison. There are direct instructions for the Lord’s Supper. Of course, as long as the bread and wine is provided, then people are free to fellowship together afterwards with French fries and soda pop if they desire, as long as there is enough for everyone..
I was referencing YOUR logic regarding the verse about singing in one’s bed. The verse commands us to sing there. Since you believe that a positive command to sing in one’s bed means that people can’t sing anywhere else, then I hope you have comfortable beds at your worship services. I personally don’t believe that one can only sing in their beds, but that is what the verse says, so if my logic is wrong and yours is right, then you must only believe in bed-singing.
How telling that you dismiss my example merely by calling it “silly” and saying that there are “direct instructions for the Lord’s Supper.”
Your “logic” is that a “positive” command is not enough; there must also be “negative” commands that specify all the things that cannot be done—otherwise, everything is legitimate.
In keeping seemingly with the thinking of some on SI, God created/made French fries and soda pop. God has not prohibited the use of them in the Lord’s Supper. Whatever is not prohibited is legitimate.
French fries and soda pop also must be among the all things that are lawful, expedient, and edifying to use in the Lord’s Supper because there is no teaching to the contrary.
Discussion