Why Certain Types of Music Make Our Brains Sing, and Others Don’t

"our prediction of musical events remains inexorably bound to our musical upbringing. To explore this phenomenon, a group of researchers met with the Sámi people, who inhabit the region stretching between the northernmost reaches of Sweden and the Kola Peninsula in Russia." - Neroscience News

9762 reads

There are 237 Comments

Kevin Miller's picture

RajeshG wrote:

In a very telling statement, CCM has been characterized in this thread as a "genre" where "somebody whispers out the lyrics."
 

Ironically, the most "pure" art form might well be CCM, because of that genre's habit of taking $5000 instruments and basically using them as a metronome while somebody whispers out the lyrics.  

 

To the extent that this statement is true, it shows plainly just how unbiblical CCM is because Scripture makes it plain that whispering out lyrics (excepting, of course, those who are physically incapable of singing aloud) has no place in acceptable corporate worship:

Psalm 81:1 Sing aloud unto God our strength: make a joyful noise unto the God of Jacob.

Several other related passages clearly support this command from God:

Ps. 51:14  Deliver me from bloodguiltiness, O God, thou God of my salvation: and my tongue shall sing aloud of thy righteousness.

Ps. 59:16  But I will sing of thy power; yea, I will sing aloud of thy mercy in the morning: for thou hast been my defence and refuge in the day of my trouble.

Ps. 149:5  Let the saints be joyful in glory: let them sing aloud upon their beds.

I'm not sure that God actually has "volume commands" when it comes to corporate worship. Yes, singing needs to be out loud rather than just in our thoughts while listening, but since you yourself made note of people who can't sing aloud, you must realize that a particular volume is not a hard and fast rule with God.

Bert Perry's picture

If we think that a certain range of vocal techniques and volumes are mandated, and alternatives are excluded, it's worth noting that a quick word search finds a number of examples of "sighing" in Psalms, and of course in 1 Kings 19, God comes to Elijah with a ....whisper.  I can certainly imagine composing a hymn about the matter where the approach of the Lord would rightly be communicated that way.  Really, if we are to sing of God's goodness and return our praise to Him, shouldn't the ordinary range of human expression--whispering, speaking, singing, shouting, etc..--be in play?  That's certainly what Scripture records.

Really, Rajesh, this is a basic logical error on your part, where you're asserting that because God tells Israel to praise Him a certain way in some places, that other ways of praising Him are proscribed. Hasty generalization, among other things.

Regarding the question of the testimonies of unbelievers and "professional occultists", Ron's comment here says it all. To take the testimony of Gene Simmons or Mickey Hart (or whoever) at face value without considering the possibility that part of what they're doing is just part of the schtick, and not a genuine conviction, is a really basic mistake of interpretation.  Any lawyer skilled at cross examination would be simply incredulous at that, as would any journalist who says "If your mother says she loves you, check it out."

By the way, Rajesh, I see no attempt on your part to present any genre of music as being uncontaminated by the occult.   There's a reason for this.  There isn't any.

Aspiring to be a stick in the mud.

RajeshG's picture

Kevin Miller wrote:

RajeshG wrote:

Kevin Miller wrote:

RajeshG wrote:

You obviously still do not understand what I am saying or what the Bible reveals.

Again, when God says that people are professional occultists, He is absolutely right, and they are fully authentic professional occultists. They engage in fully authentic occult practices. They have all the knowledge that they need to engage in all those fully authentic occult practices. They can and do make known to others that fully authentic information about what those fully authentic occult practices are and how to fully authentically engage in them.

If you deny any of this, you are saying that God is wrong when He speaks of those people as professional occultists. God is right. Anyone who denies what He says about those professional occultists is wrong.

 

Now you are the one not understanding. Did you even read my question? I'm not disputing that professional occultists exist nor that the Bible refers to them. I'm wondering how you can say that the information given by them outside of the Bible is "fully authentic" when the words "fully authentic" mean "100% accurate." Do you really believe that they are NEVER wrong? That is what your words are saying!

Of course, I read what you said. I actually read it over and over several times.

No, that is not what my words are saying. I have never said that they are never wrong. You are the one who is misunderstanding what I have said. Go back and read again what I actually said.

RajeshG's picture

Kevin Miller wrote:

 

RajeshG wrote:

 

In a very telling statement, CCM has been characterized in this thread as a "genre" where "somebody whispers out the lyrics."
 

Ironically, the most "pure" art form might well be CCM, because of that genre's habit of taking $5000 instruments and basically using them as a metronome while somebody whispers out the lyrics.  

 

To the extent that this statement is true, it shows plainly just how unbiblical CCM is because Scripture makes it plain that whispering out lyrics (excepting, of course, those who are physically incapable of singing aloud) has no place in acceptable corporate worship:

Psalm 81:1 Sing aloud unto God our strength: make a joyful noise unto the God of Jacob.

Several other related passages clearly support this command from God:

Ps. 51:14  Deliver me from bloodguiltiness, O God, thou God of my salvation: and my tongue shall sing aloud of thy righteousness.

Ps. 59:16  But I will sing of thy power; yea, I will sing aloud of thy mercy in the morning: for thou hast been my defence and refuge in the day of my trouble.

Ps. 149:5  Let the saints be joyful in glory: let them sing aloud upon their beds.

 

I'm not sure that God actually has "volume commands" when it comes to corporate worship. Yes, singing needs to be out loud rather than just in our thoughts while listening, but since you yourself made note of people who can't sing aloud, you must realize that a particular volume is not a hard and fast rule with God.

No, what God commands is what must be done. Singing out loud is not just the opposite of singing in our thoughts--it is also the opposite of whispering.

When someone physically is incapable of doing something, that does not legitimize that those who are capable of doing what God commands can characteristically choose not to do what He says and do the same thing as what those who are incapable do because of their genuine inability to do what God commands.

There is zero Bible basis to hold that singing in worship that is characteristically whispering is acceptable in corporate worship.

Kevin Miller's picture

RajeshG wrote:

 

Kevin Miller wrote:

 

RajeshG wrote:

Kevin Miller wrote:

RajeshG wrote:

You obviously still do not understand what I am saying or what the Bible reveals.

Again, when God says that people are professional occultists, He is absolutely right, and they are fully authentic professional occultists. They engage in fully authentic occult practices. They have all the knowledge that they need to engage in all those fully authentic occult practices. They can and do make known to others that fully authentic information about what those fully authentic occult practices are and how to fully authentically engage in them.

If you deny any of this, you are saying that God is wrong when He speaks of those people as professional occultists. God is right. Anyone who denies what He says about those professional occultists is wrong.

 

Now you are the one not understanding. Did you even read my question? I'm not disputing that professional occultists exist nor that the Bible refers to them. I'm wondering how you can say that the information given by them outside of the Bible is "fully authentic" when the words "fully authentic" mean "100% accurate." Do you really believe that they are NEVER wrong? That is what your words are saying!

 

 

Of course, I read what you said. I actually read it over and over several times.

No, that is not what my words are saying. I have never said that they are never wrong. You are the one who is misunderstanding what I have said. Go back and read again what I actually said.

I think you're just playing games with me now. I realize you have never said written the words "They are never wrong," but that that doesn't mean you don't believe it. You just haven't put those words in print. What you have done is made a statement that means exactly the same thing. You've said the information that they pass on is "fully authentic information" about their "fully authentic occult practices." That means that everything they say about their occult practices is 100% percent true and they never lie or make any false statements about their occult practices. I'm just taking your words at face value after reading them over and over several times.

If a professional occultist tells someone that they have made contact with the spirit of that someone's dead relative, should that person believe the professional occultist? After all, according to you, professional occultists pass on fully authentic information about their fully authentic occult practices. If the occultist should not be believed, then why should this fully authentic information not be believed?

RajeshG's picture

Kevin Miller wrote:

 

RajeshG wrote:

 

 

Kevin Miller wrote:

 

RajeshG wrote:

Kevin Miller wrote:

RajeshG wrote:

You obviously still do not understand what I am saying or what the Bible reveals.

Again, when God says that people are professional occultists, He is absolutely right, and they are fully authentic professional occultists. They engage in fully authentic occult practices. They have all the knowledge that they need to engage in all those fully authentic occult practices. They can and do make known to others that fully authentic information about what those fully authentic occult practices are and how to fully authentically engage in them.

If you deny any of this, you are saying that God is wrong when He speaks of those people as professional occultists. God is right. Anyone who denies what He says about those professional occultists is wrong.

 

Now you are the one not understanding. Did you even read my question? I'm not disputing that professional occultists exist nor that the Bible refers to them. I'm wondering how you can say that the information given by them outside of the Bible is "fully authentic" when the words "fully authentic" mean "100% accurate." Do you really believe that they are NEVER wrong? That is what your words are saying!

 

 

Of course, I read what you said. I actually read it over and over several times.

No, that is not what my words are saying. I have never said that they are never wrong. You are the one who is misunderstanding what I have said. Go back and read again what I actually said.

 

I think you're just playing games with me now. I realize you have never said written the words "They are never wrong," but that that doesn't mean you don't believe it. You just haven't put those words in print. What you have done is made a statement that means exactly the same thing. You've said the information that they pass on is "fully authentic information" about their "fully authentic occult practices." That means that everything they say about their occult practices is 100% percent true and they never lie or make any false statements about their occult practices. I'm just taking your words at face value after reading them over and over several times.

 

If a professional occultist tells someone that they have made contact with the spirit of that someone's dead relative, should that person believe the professional occultist? After all, according to you, professional occultists pass on fully authentic information about their fully authentic occult practices. If the occultist should not be believed, then why should this fully authentic information not be believed?

This is utter nonsense. You refuse to deal with what the Bible reveals and the inescapable implications of what God has revealed. Either you believe that the people that God says were professional occultists were fully authentic professional occultists or not. You have no biblical basis to say that God is wrong and that they were not.

Either you believe that the people that God says were professional occultists engaged in fully authentic occult practices or you do not. You have no biblical basis to say that they did not engage in such fully authentic practices.

Either you believe that those people could and did transmit fully authentic information to others about those fully authentic occult practices or you do not. You have no biblical basis for saying that they did not.

The bottom line is that the biblical data shows that you and anybody else who denies the full authenticity of the people that God says were professional occultists are wrong. Those people whom God says were professional occultists were exactly what He said they were.

Kevin Miller's picture

RajeshG wrote:

 

Kevin Miller wrote:

 

 

RajeshG wrote:

 

In a very telling statement, CCM has been characterized in this thread as a "genre" where "somebody whispers out the lyrics."
 

Ironically, the most "pure" art form might well be CCM, because of that genre's habit of taking $5000 instruments and basically using them as a metronome while somebody whispers out the lyrics.  

 

To the extent that this statement is true, it shows plainly just how unbiblical CCM is because Scripture makes it plain that whispering out lyrics (excepting, of course, those who are physically incapable of singing aloud) has no place in acceptable corporate worship:

Psalm 81:1 Sing aloud unto God our strength: make a joyful noise unto the God of Jacob.

Several other related passages clearly support this command from God:

Ps. 51:14  Deliver me from bloodguiltiness, O God, thou God of my salvation: and my tongue shall sing aloud of thy righteousness.

Ps. 59:16  But I will sing of thy power; yea, I will sing aloud of thy mercy in the morning: for thou hast been my defence and refuge in the day of my trouble.

Ps. 149:5  Let the saints be joyful in glory: let them sing aloud upon their beds.

 

I'm not sure that God actually has "volume commands" when it comes to corporate worship. Yes, singing needs to be out loud rather than just in our thoughts while listening, but since you yourself made note of people who can't sing aloud, you must realize that a particular volume is not a hard and fast rule with God.

 

 

No, what God commands is what must be done. Singing out loud is not just the opposite of singing in our thoughts--it is also the opposite of whispering.

When someone physically is incapable of doing something, that does not legitimize that those who are capable of doing what God commands can characteristically choose not to do what He says and do the same thing as what those who are incapable do because of their genuine inability to do what God commands.

There is zero Bible basis to hold that singing in worship that is characteristically whispering is acceptable in corporate worship.

There is also zero Bible to hold that any particular volume is necessary for corporate worship, as long as people are singing corporately.

I'm pretty sure the quotation about CCM being characterized by "whispering" is hyperbole anyway. If anything, I've found CCM to be characterized by too much volume rather than too little.

RajeshG's picture

Kevin Miller wrote:

 

RajeshG wrote:

 

 

Kevin Miller wrote:

 

 

RajeshG wrote:

 

In a very telling statement, CCM has been characterized in this thread as a "genre" where "somebody whispers out the lyrics."
 

Ironically, the most "pure" art form might well be CCM, because of that genre's habit of taking $5000 instruments and basically using them as a metronome while somebody whispers out the lyrics.  

 

To the extent that this statement is true, it shows plainly just how unbiblical CCM is because Scripture makes it plain that whispering out lyrics (excepting, of course, those who are physically incapable of singing aloud) has no place in acceptable corporate worship:

Psalm 81:1 Sing aloud unto God our strength: make a joyful noise unto the God of Jacob.

Several other related passages clearly support this command from God:

Ps. 51:14  Deliver me from bloodguiltiness, O God, thou God of my salvation: and my tongue shall sing aloud of thy righteousness.

Ps. 59:16  But I will sing of thy power; yea, I will sing aloud of thy mercy in the morning: for thou hast been my defence and refuge in the day of my trouble.

Ps. 149:5  Let the saints be joyful in glory: let them sing aloud upon their beds.

 

I'm not sure that God actually has "volume commands" when it comes to corporate worship. Yes, singing needs to be out loud rather than just in our thoughts while listening, but since you yourself made note of people who can't sing aloud, you must realize that a particular volume is not a hard and fast rule with God.

 

 

No, what God commands is what must be done. Singing out loud is not just the opposite of singing in our thoughts--it is also the opposite of whispering.

When someone physically is incapable of doing something, that does not legitimize that those who are capable of doing what God commands can characteristically choose not to do what He says and do the same thing as what those who are incapable do because of their genuine inability to do what God commands.

There is zero Bible basis to hold that singing in worship that is characteristically whispering is acceptable in corporate worship.

 

There is also zero Bible to hold that any particular volume is necessary for corporate worship, as long as people are singing corporately.

I'm pretty sure the quotation about CCM being characterized by "whispering" is hyperbole anyway. If anything, I've found CCM to be characterized by too much volume rather than too little.

Yeah,  right. The Bible says that God has commanded people to sing aloud. That command and many other passages show plainly that singing that is characteristically whispering is not acceptable to God in corporate worship. 

Kevin Miller's picture

RajeshG wrote:

 

Kevin Miller wrote:

 

 

RajeshG wrote:

 

 

Kevin Miller wrote:

 

RajeshG wrote:

Kevin Miller wrote:

RajeshG wrote:

You obviously still do not understand what I am saying or what the Bible reveals.

Again, when God says that people are professional occultists, He is absolutely right, and they are fully authentic professional occultists. They engage in fully authentic occult practices. They have all the knowledge that they need to engage in all those fully authentic occult practices. They can and do make known to others that fully authentic information about what those fully authentic occult practices are and how to fully authentically engage in them.

If you deny any of this, you are saying that God is wrong when He speaks of those people as professional occultists. God is right. Anyone who denies what He says about those professional occultists is wrong.

 

Now you are the one not understanding. Did you even read my question? I'm not disputing that professional occultists exist nor that the Bible refers to them. I'm wondering how you can say that the information given by them outside of the Bible is "fully authentic" when the words "fully authentic" mean "100% accurate." Do you really believe that they are NEVER wrong? That is what your words are saying!

 

 

Of course, I read what you said. I actually read it over and over several times.

No, that is not what my words are saying. I have never said that they are never wrong. You are the one who is misunderstanding what I have said. Go back and read again what I actually said.

 

I think you're just playing games with me now. I realize you have never said written the words "They are never wrong," but that that doesn't mean you don't believe it. You just haven't put those words in print. What you have done is made a statement that means exactly the same thing. You've said the information that they pass on is "fully authentic information" about their "fully authentic occult practices." That means that everything they say about their occult practices is 100% percent true and they never lie or make any false statements about their occult practices. I'm just taking your words at face value after reading them over and over several times.

 

If a professional occultist tells someone that they have made contact with the spirit of that someone's dead relative, should that person believe the professional occultist? After all, according to you, professional occultists pass on fully authentic information about their fully authentic occult practices. If the occultist should not be believed, then why should this fully authentic information not be believed?

 

 

This is utter nonsense. You refuse to deal with what the Bible reveals and the inescapable implications of what God has revealed. Either you believe that the people that God says were professional occultists were fully authentic professional occultists or not. You have no biblical basis to say that God is wrong and that they were not.

Either you believe that the people that God says were professional occultists engaged in fully authentic practices or you do not. You have no biblical basis to say that they did not engage in such fully authentic practices.

Either you believe that those people could and did transmit fully authentic information to others about those fully authentic practices or you do not. You have no biblical basis for saying that they did not.

The bottom line is that the biblical data shows that you and anybody else who denies the full authenticity of the people that God says were professional occultists are wrong. Those people whom God says were professional occultists were exactly what He said they were.

Here you go again with the games. Do you bother answering my legitimate question? No. You must realize that an honest answer would require you to actually admit that professional occultists can be wrong and you simply don't want to admit that for some reason.

Instead you accuse me of claiming that "God is wrong." That is such hubris on your part to claim that asking you legitimate questions about your view is the same as saying God is wrong.

I'll repeat my last question to you to see if you actually want to have an honest conversation or not.

If a professional occultist tells someone that they have made contact with the spirit of that someone's dead relative, should that person believe the professional occultist? After all, according to you, professional occultists pass on fully authentic information about their fully authentic occult practices. If the occultist should not be believed, then why should this fully authentic information not be believed?

RajeshG's picture

Kevin Miller wrote:

 

RajeshG wrote:

 

 

Kevin Miller wrote:

 

 

RajeshG wrote:

 

 

Kevin Miller wrote:

 

RajeshG wrote:

Kevin Miller wrote:

RajeshG wrote:

You obviously still do not understand what I am saying or what the Bible reveals.

Again, when God says that people are professional occultists, He is absolutely right, and they are fully authentic professional occultists. They engage in fully authentic occult practices. They have all the knowledge that they need to engage in all those fully authentic occult practices. They can and do make known to others that fully authentic information about what those fully authentic occult practices are and how to fully authentically engage in them.

If you deny any of this, you are saying that God is wrong when He speaks of those people as professional occultists. God is right. Anyone who denies what He says about those professional occultists is wrong.

 

Now you are the one not understanding. Did you even read my question? I'm not disputing that professional occultists exist nor that the Bible refers to them. I'm wondering how you can say that the information given by them outside of the Bible is "fully authentic" when the words "fully authentic" mean "100% accurate." Do you really believe that they are NEVER wrong? That is what your words are saying!

 

 

Of course, I read what you said. I actually read it over and over several times.

No, that is not what my words are saying. I have never said that they are never wrong. You are the one who is misunderstanding what I have said. Go back and read again what I actually said.

 

I think you're just playing games with me now. I realize you have never said written the words "They are never wrong," but that that doesn't mean you don't believe it. You just haven't put those words in print. What you have done is made a statement that means exactly the same thing. You've said the information that they pass on is "fully authentic information" about their "fully authentic occult practices." That means that everything they say about their occult practices is 100% percent true and they never lie or make any false statements about their occult practices. I'm just taking your words at face value after reading them over and over several times.

 

If a professional occultist tells someone that they have made contact with the spirit of that someone's dead relative, should that person believe the professional occultist? After all, according to you, professional occultists pass on fully authentic information about their fully authentic occult practices. If the occultist should not be believed, then why should this fully authentic information not be believed?

 

 

This is utter nonsense. You refuse to deal with what the Bible reveals and the inescapable implications of what God has revealed. Either you believe that the people that God says were professional occultists were fully authentic professional occultists or not. You have no biblical basis to say that God is wrong and that they were not.

Either you believe that the people that God says were professional occultists engaged in fully authentic practices or you do not. You have no biblical basis to say that they did not engage in such fully authentic practices.

Either you believe that those people could and did transmit fully authentic information to others about those fully authentic practices or you do not. You have no biblical basis for saying that they did not.

The bottom line is that the biblical data shows that you and anybody else who denies the full authenticity of the people that God says were professional occultists are wrong. Those people whom God says were professional occultists were exactly what He said they were.

 

Here you go again with the games. Do you bother answering my legitimate question? No. You must realize that an honest answer would require you to actually admit that professional occultists can be wrong and you simply don't want to admit that for some reason.

 

Instead you accuse me of claiming that "God is wrong." That is such hubris on your part to claim that asking you legitimate questions about your view is the same as saying God is wrong.

I'll repeat my last question to you to see if you actually want to have an honest conversation or not.

If a professional occultist tells someone that they have made contact with the spirit of that someone's dead relative, should that person believe the professional occultist? After all, according to you, professional occultists pass on fully authentic information about their fully authentic occult practices. If the occultist should not be believed, then why should this fully authentic information not be believed?

No, I am not going to answer that question or any other question that you direct to me until you deal fully with the biblical data. You are falsely taking what I have said about the biblical data and wrongly extrapolating from it to say false things about what I am saying. It's not my problem that you do not read carefully what I have said repeatedly about the biblical data and then misapply it.

Kevin Miller's picture

RajeshG wrote:

 

Kevin Miller wrote:

 

 

RajeshG wrote:

 

 

Kevin Miller wrote:

 

 

RajeshG wrote:

 

 

Kevin Miller wrote:

 

RajeshG wrote:

Kevin Miller wrote:

RajeshG wrote:

You obviously still do not understand what I am saying or what the Bible reveals.

Again, when God says that people are professional occultists, He is absolutely right, and they are fully authentic professional occultists. They engage in fully authentic occult practices. They have all the knowledge that they need to engage in all those fully authentic occult practices. They can and do make known to others that fully authentic information about what those fully authentic occult practices are and how to fully authentically engage in them.

If you deny any of this, you are saying that God is wrong when He speaks of those people as professional occultists. God is right. Anyone who denies what He says about those professional occultists is wrong.

 

Now you are the one not understanding. Did you even read my question? I'm not disputing that professional occultists exist nor that the Bible refers to them. I'm wondering how you can say that the information given by them outside of the Bible is "fully authentic" when the words "fully authentic" mean "100% accurate." Do you really believe that they are NEVER wrong? That is what your words are saying!

 

 

Of course, I read what you said. I actually read it over and over several times.

No, that is not what my words are saying. I have never said that they are never wrong. You are the one who is misunderstanding what I have said. Go back and read again what I actually said.

 

I think you're just playing games with me now. I realize you have never said written the words "They are never wrong," but that that doesn't mean you don't believe it. You just haven't put those words in print. What you have done is made a statement that means exactly the same thing. You've said the information that they pass on is "fully authentic information" about their "fully authentic occult practices." That means that everything they say about their occult practices is 100% percent true and they never lie or make any false statements about their occult practices. I'm just taking your words at face value after reading them over and over several times.

 

If a professional occultist tells someone that they have made contact with the spirit of that someone's dead relative, should that person believe the professional occultist? After all, according to you, professional occultists pass on fully authentic information about their fully authentic occult practices. If the occultist should not be believed, then why should this fully authentic information not be believed?

 

 

This is utter nonsense. You refuse to deal with what the Bible reveals and the inescapable implications of what God has revealed. Either you believe that the people that God says were professional occultists were fully authentic professional occultists or not. You have no biblical basis to say that God is wrong and that they were not.

Either you believe that the people that God says were professional occultists engaged in fully authentic practices or you do not. You have no biblical basis to say that they did not engage in such fully authentic practices.

Either you believe that those people could and did transmit fully authentic information to others about those fully authentic practices or you do not. You have no biblical basis for saying that they did not.

The bottom line is that the biblical data shows that you and anybody else who denies the full authenticity of the people that God says were professional occultists are wrong. Those people whom God says were professional occultists were exactly what He said they were.

 

Here you go again with the games. Do you bother answering my legitimate question? No. You must realize that an honest answer would require you to actually admit that professional occultists can be wrong and you simply don't want to admit that for some reason.

 

Instead you accuse me of claiming that "God is wrong." That is such hubris on your part to claim that asking you legitimate questions about your view is the same as saying God is wrong.

I'll repeat my last question to you to see if you actually want to have an honest conversation or not.

If a professional occultist tells someone that they have made contact with the spirit of that someone's dead relative, should that person believe the professional occultist? After all, according to you, professional occultists pass on fully authentic information about their fully authentic occult practices. If the occultist should not be believed, then why should this fully authentic information not be believed?

 

 

No, I am not going to answer that question or any other question that you direct to me until you deal fully with the biblical data. You are falsely taking what I have said about the biblical data and wrongly extrapolating from it to say false things about what I am saying. It's not my problem that you do not read carefully what I have said repeatedly about the biblical data and then misapply it.

More games. More games. You simply don't want to answer obvious questions, do you.

The Biblical data is absolutely true and without error of any kind. Whatever the inspired Word of God says that professional occultists have said, we know for a fact that they have said it because the Bible is inspired and without error. What more needs to be dealt with in regards to the biblical data? I've never once denied anything that the Bible has said about professional occultists, so I don't know what else you want me to say about the biblical data.

It seems to me that you use the biblical data about occultists when someone even suggests that occultists today might be mistaken or even lying at times. But how does the biblical data refute that possibility? I'm not sure, but that doesn't stop you from repeating it over and over again as if someone shouldn't even suggest that occultists might be wrong. Does an inspired account of a truthful occultist really show that all occultists are truthful? No one is saying that all occultists lie all the time, so you wouldn't need to be refuting that illogical claim that no one is making. No, you bring up the "biblical data" when someone even suggests that occultists might be wrong.

So how am I falsely extrapolating what you say about the biblical data? What is it exactly that you want this biblical data to be showing? If you agree that occultists can be wrong and you simply want to show that they sometimes tell the truth, then we are in absolute agreement. I've stated previously that they can tell the truth, but when I suggest they might be wrong, you push back with the biblical data, so I can ONLY assume that you think they can't be wrong. Why else would you argue that point with me?

Kevin Miller's picture

RajeshG wrote:

 

Kevin Miller wrote:

There is also zero Bible to hold that any particular volume is necessary for corporate worship, as long as people are singing corporately.

I'm pretty sure the quotation about CCM being characterized by "whispering" is hyperbole anyway. If anything, I've found CCM to be characterized by too much volume rather than too little.

 

Yeah,  right. The Bible says that God has commanded people to sing aloud. That command and many other passages show plainly that singing that is characteristically whispering is not acceptable to God in corporate worship. 

Since none of the other passages actually condemn whispering songs, then i wouldn't agree that the passages "plainly" show that singing that is whispering is unacceptable to God.

I think in many cases the acceptability of whispering would depend on the song. I've been in charge of the Awana program at my church for 10 years and sometimes we have the kids corporately sing a song that starts "Stand up and shout it if you love my Jesus. Sit down and whisper if you love my Lord." We have the kids stand up and shout while singing the first line and they sit down and whisper while singing the second line. Is it your position that God is pleased with their singing of the first line but He is displeased when they whisper the second line?

RajeshG's picture

Kevin Miller wrote:

It seems to me that you use the biblical data about occultists when someone even suggests that occultists today might be mistaken or even lying at times. But how does the biblical data refute that possibility? I'm not sure, but that doesn't stop you from repeating it over and over again as if someone shouldn't even suggest that occultists might be wrong. Does an inspired account of a truthful occultist really show that all occultists are truthful? No one is saying that all occultists lie all the time, so you wouldn't need to be refuting that illogical claim that no one is making. No, you bring up the "biblical data" when someone even suggests that occultists might be wrong.

I have never done what you wrongly claim in these comments. You are the one who has misread over and over again what I have said to incorrectly repeatedly suggest my holding things that I have never said.

Holding a particular position concerning whether occultists can or cannot lie, etc. has never been my point.

RajeshG's picture

Kevin Miller wrote:

 

RajeshG wrote:

 

 

Kevin Miller wrote:

There is also zero Bible to hold that any particular volume is necessary for corporate worship, as long as people are singing corporately.

I'm pretty sure the quotation about CCM being characterized by "whispering" is hyperbole anyway. If anything, I've found CCM to be characterized by too much volume rather than too little.

 

Yeah,  right. The Bible says that God has commanded people to sing aloud. That command and many other passages show plainly that singing that is characteristically whispering is not acceptable to God in corporate worship. 

 

Since none of the other passages actually condemn whispering songs, then i wouldn't agree that the passages "plainly" show that singing that is whispering is unacceptable to God.

 

I think in many cases the acceptability of whispering would depend on the song. I've been in charge of the Awana program at my church for 10 years and sometimes we have the kids corporately sing a song that starts "Stand up and shout it if you love my Jesus. Sit down and whisper if you love my Lord." We have the kids stand up and shout while singing the first line and they sit down and whisper while singing the second line. Is it your position that God is pleased with their singing of the first line but He is displeased when they whisper the second line?

The Bible never talks about what you do in Awanas as being corporate worship. What the Bible does talk about in 1 Cor. 14 and many other passages that are about corporate worship shows very plainly that singing that is characterized as whispering is not acceptable corporate worship.

Scripture reveals that leaven could be used acceptably in one aspect of worship but could not be used acceptably in any offering by fire on an altar. Similarly, even if you could show that whispering singing is acceptable for your kids' programs, that would not establish anything about singing that is characterized as whispering being acceptable to God in corporate worship.

RajeshG's picture

The Spirit reveals that Pharaoh's magicians used enchantments to effect demonic miracles (Exod. 7:11, 22; 8:7). Those magicians were fully authentic professional occultists (there is zero basis for anyone to hold that they were merely shysters, charlatans, fakes, etc. who just pretended to be magicians, etc.).

When those fully authentic professional occultists used their enchantments to effect those miracles, they engaged in fully authentic occult practices. No one has any basis to legitimately hold that what they did was just sleight of hand, smoke and mirrors, trickery, or any other such thing.

When those fully authentic professional occultists used those enchantments, they had all the fully authentic information that they needed to do so, and they knew fully authentically how to do everything that they needed to do to use those enchantments to do those miracles.

These fully authentic professional occultists did not get any of their information about how to do those fully authentic miracles from the Bible, from God, from any godly prophet, or from any other godly source.

They did not need to have anything from the Bible to fully authentically know what they needed to know and to do what they fully authentically did when they used those enchantments.

These fully authentic professional occultists were fully authentically able to transmit all the fully authentic information about how to do those fully authentic occult practices that they engaged in when they used those enchantments to do those miracles.

In this manner, not just in their case, but similarly also in many other cases in Scripture, we can know with absolute certainty that fully authentic occultists engaged in fully authentic occult activities without any need for any information from the Bible.

Moreover, they could and undoubtedly did transmit all that fully authentic information to others about those fully authentic practices without any need for anything from the Bible.

Kevin Miller's picture

RajeshG wrote:

 

Kevin Miller wrote:

 

It seems to me that you use the biblical data about occultists when someone even suggests that occultists today might be mistaken or even lying at times. But how does the biblical data refute that possibility? I'm not sure, but that doesn't stop you from repeating it over and over again as if someone shouldn't even suggest that occultists might be wrong. Does an inspired account of a truthful occultist really show that all occultists are truthful? No one is saying that all occultists lie all the time, so you wouldn't need to be refuting that illogical claim that no one is making. No, you bring up the "biblical data" when someone even suggests that occultists might be wrong.

 

 

I have never done what you wrongly claim in these comments. You are the one who has misread over and over again what I have said to incorrectly repeatedly suggest my holding things that I have never said.

Holding a particular position concerning whether occultists can or cannot lie, etc. has never been my point.

Well then, what HAS been your point when you say that professional occultists pass on fully authentic information about their fully authentic practices? I'm still not understanding it and you haven't been forthcoming in explaining it. Do you even have a point in making that statement?

Kevin Miller's picture

RajeshG wrote:

The Spirit reveals that Pharaoh's magicians used enchantments to effect demonic miracles (Exod. 7:11, 22; 8:7). Those magicians were fully authentic professional occultists (there is zero basis for anyone to hold that they were merely shysters, charlatans, fakes, etc. who just pretended to be magicians, etc.).

When those fully authentic professional occultists used their enchantments to effect those miracles, they engaged in fully authentic occult practices. No one has any basis to legitimately hold that what they did was just sleight of hand, smoke and mirrors, trickery, or any other such thing.

When those fully authentic professional occultists used those enchantments, they had all the fully authentic information that they needed to do so, and they knew fully authentically how to do everything that they needed to do to use those enchantments to do those miracles.

These fully authentic professional occultists did not get any of their information about how to do those fully authentic miracles from the Bible, from God, from any godly prophet, or from any other godly source.

They did not need to have anything from the Bible to fully authentically know what they needed to know and to do what they fully authentically did when they used those enchantments.

These fully authentic professional occultists were fully authentically able to transmit all the fully authentic information about how to do those fully authentic occult practices that they engaged in when they used those enchantments to do those miracles.

In this manner, not just in their case, but similarly also in many other cases in Scripture, we can know with absolute certainty that fully authentic occultists engaged in fully authentic occult activities without any need for any information from the Bible.

Moreover, they could and undoubtedly did transmit all that fully authentic information to others about those fully authentic practices without any need for anything from the Bible.

So what? The fact that Pharaoh's magicians did something does not mean that EVERY occultist is like Pharaoh's magicians. Some people desire to be occultists and even claim to be occultists, but their mode of operation really is "just sleight of hand, smoke and mirrors, trickery, or any other such thing." Do you deny that those people exist?

Also, some fully authentic occultists claim to have the fully authentic practice of contacting dead relatives for people. Is that actually a fully authentic practice?

Kevin Miller's picture

RajeshG wrote:

The Bible never talks about what you do in Awanas as being corporate worship.

How is it NOT corporate worship? We are gathered together and we are worshiping. 

Besides, one of the verses you used earlier to support your idea of a "volume rule" for corporate worship was Ps. 149:5  Let the saints be joyful in glory: let them sing aloud upon their beds. Unless people are bringing their beds to the worship gathering, that verse isn't about corporate worship.

RajeshG's picture

Kevin Miller wrote:

Besides, one of the verses you used earlier to support your idea of a "volume rule" for corporate worship was Ps. 149:5  Let the saints be joyful in glory: let them sing aloud upon their beds. Unless people are bringing their beds to the worship gathering, that verse isn't about corporate worship.

That actually strengthens my point because it shows that even in what appears to be a non-worship setting, God still wants them to sing aloud and not whisper.

RajeshG's picture

Kevin Miller wrote:

 

RajeshG wrote:

 

The Spirit reveals that Pharaoh's magicians used enchantments to effect demonic miracles (Exod. 7:11, 22; 8:7). Those magicians were fully authentic professional occultists (there is zero basis for anyone to hold that they were merely shysters, charlatans, fakes, etc. who just pretended to be magicians, etc.).

When those fully authentic professional occultists used their enchantments to effect those miracles, they engaged in fully authentic occult practices. No one has any basis to legitimately hold that what they did was just sleight of hand, smoke and mirrors, trickery, or any other such thing.

When those fully authentic professional occultists used those enchantments, they had all the fully authentic information that they needed to do so, and they knew fully authentically how to do everything that they needed to do to use those enchantments to do those miracles.

These fully authentic professional occultists did not get any of their information about how to do those fully authentic miracles from the Bible, from God, from any godly prophet, or from any other godly source.

They did not need to have anything from the Bible to fully authentically know what they needed to know and to do what they fully authentically did when they used those enchantments.

These fully authentic professional occultists were fully authentically able to transmit all the fully authentic information about how to do those fully authentic occult practices that they engaged in when they used those enchantments to do those miracles.

In this manner, not just in their case, but similarly also in many other cases in Scripture, we can know with absolute certainty that fully authentic occultists engaged in fully authentic occult activities without any need for any information from the Bible.

Moreover, they could and undoubtedly did transmit all that fully authentic information to others about those fully authentic practices without any need for anything from the Bible.

 

So what? The fact that Pharaoh's magicians did something does not mean that EVERY occultist is like Pharaoh's magicians. Some people desire to be occultists and even claim to be occultists, but their mode of operation really is "just sleight of hand, smoke and mirrors, trickery, or any other such thing." Do you deny that those people exist?

So what that such people exist? That does not change at all the profound ramifications of what Scripture reveals about Pharaoh's magicians and many other fully authentic professional occultists.

dcbii's picture

EditorModerator

RajeshG wrote:

So what that such people exist? That does not change at all the profound ramifications of what Scripture reveals about Pharaoh's magicians and many other fully authentic professional occultists.

It means the following:

1. We need to be able to discern true occultists from those that are fake, to know which practices God hates and that we must avoid.

2. To do so, we actually have to do some evaluation (which will require research and understanding), not just accept what is said by any of these people.  Just as prophets in the OT were tested so that the people could know which are true, we need to do the same, whether in regard to false prophets of Christianity or practitioners of other religions.  This is particularly true when the other religion claims to be the true Christianity, and things look good until examined closely.  Satan is particularly good at this type of deception.

3. Once we find true occultists, we also know that they can lie as well as tell the truth, so their claims must be evaluated like any other.

4. Even when we locate true occultists, the circumstances of life are so common that we cannot avoid everything done or used by an occultist just because they do so.  If I were, for example, to find out that an occult group somewhere on earth required their practitioners to wear black leather jackets for all their ceremonies, that doesn't make the wearing of a black leather jacket uniquely an occult practice and wrong for me to do.  If they were in my local context, I might avoid doing so to make it clear I'm not associated with them, but that would be for the sake of others' consciences, not my own.

The same would apply to the eating of certain foods, the use of objects, chemicals, etc., or use of particular musical forms.  Misuse or abuse of something God has made and given to us, whether food, music, or even marital relations, does not spoil the proper use of those things when used as God intended.  Romans 14 means that context matters, but that chapter also makes clear that the things themselves are not the issue.

I probably wouldn't disagree with you about avoiding to the extent possible any contact or association with the occult.  We do have to know enough, however, to be able to do so, especially when it isn't blatantly obvious.  We cannot just assume that anything someone who claims to be an occultist is telling us must be true, and we can't possibly avoid everything in life that may somehow, somewhere, be associated with an occult practice.  To do so would mean having to leave this world.

Dave Barnhart

RajeshG's picture

dcbii wrote:

4. Even when we locate true occultists, the circumstances of life are so common that we cannot avoid everything done or used by an occultist just because they do so.  If I were, for example, to find out that an occult group somewhere on earth required their practitioners to wear black leather jackets for all their ceremonies, that doesn't make the wearing of a black leather jacket uniquely an occult practice and wrong for me to do.  If they were in my local context, I might avoid doing so to make it clear I'm not associated with them, but that would be for the sake of others' consciences, not my own.

The same would apply to the eating of certain foods, the use of objects, chemicals, etc., or use of particular musical forms.  Misuse or abuse of something God has made and given to us, whether food, music, or even marital relations, does not spoil the proper use of those things when used as God intended.  Romans 14 means that context matters, but that chapter also makes clear that the things themselves are not the issue.

I will respond to your other points later when I have more time. There is zero biblical basis for anyone to claim legitimately that all kinds of instrumental music are "particular musical forms" that "God has made and given to us." There also is zero biblical basis to hold validly that every kind of instrumental music has its "proper use of [it] when used as God intended." If you believe otherwise, you have the burden of proof of showing from the Bible how and why these statements are true for every kind of instrumental music.

Furthermore, once you have proven that both of these statements are true biblically, you then have to prove biblically that it is also true that every kind of instrumental music is acceptable to God for use in corporate worship.

dcbii's picture

EditorModerator

RajeshG wrote:

There is zero biblical basis for anyone to claim legitimately that all kinds of instrumental music are "particular musical forms" that "God has made and given to us." There also is zero biblical basis to hold validly that every kind of instrumental music has its "proper use of [it] when used as God intended." If you believe otherwise, you have the burden of proof of showing from the Bible how and why these statements are true for every kind of instrumental music.

Furthermore, once you have proven that both of these statements are true biblically, you then have to prove biblically that it is also true that every kind of instrumental music is acceptable to God for use in corporate worship.

I won't continue down this path, but will briefly respond to refer you to a comment I made pages (also seems "ages") ago that this is down to a version of the RPW question.  Is what is not prohibited legitimate, or must anything legitimate be that which is commanded, commended, or given as an example?  The philosophy taken on this question is at the foundation of what you are saying here, and how you answer that question will also answer this one.  Suffice it to say we appear to be on opposite sides of this one.  I don't think that further discussion here will change that.

Dave Barnhart

RajeshG's picture

dcbii wrote:

 

RajeshG wrote:

 

There is zero biblical basis for anyone to claim legitimately that all kinds of instrumental music are "particular musical forms" that "God has made and given to us." There also is zero biblical basis to hold validly that every kind of instrumental music has its "proper use of [it] when used as God intended." If you believe otherwise, you have the burden of proof of showing from the Bible how and why these statements are true for every kind of instrumental music.

Furthermore, once you have proven that both of these statements are true biblically, you then have to prove biblically that it is also true that every kind of instrumental music is acceptable to God for use in corporate worship.

 

I won't continue down this path, but will briefly respond to refer you to a comment I made pages (also seems "ages") ago that this is down to a version of the RPW question.  Is what is not prohibited legitimate, or must anything legitimate be that which is commanded, commended, or given as an example?  The philosophy taken on this question is at the foundation of what you are saying here, and how you answer that question will also answer this one.  Suffice it to say we appear to be on opposite sides of this one.  I don't think that further discussion here will change that.

You made statements to the effect that God is the Creator/Maker of all kinds of music. That is a foundational theological claim that does not have anything to do with the RWP question. Since you made the claim, you really should be prepared to defend your claim with thorough and careful biblical argumentation.

RajeshG's picture

dcbii wrote:

 

RajeshG wrote:

 

So what that such people exist? That does not change at all the profound ramifications of what Scripture reveals about Pharaoh's magicians and many other fully authentic professional occultists.

 

 

It means the following:

1. We need to be able to discern true occultists from those that are fake, to know which practices God hates and that we must avoid.

2. To do so, we actually have to do some evaluation (which will require research and understanding), not just accept what is said by any of these people.  Just as prophets in the OT were tested so that the people could know which are true, we need to do the same, whether in regard to false prophets of Christianity or practitioners of other religions.  This is particularly true when the other religion claims to be the true Christianity, and things look good until examined closely.  Satan is particularly good at this type of deception.

3. Once we find true occultists, we also know that they can lie as well as tell the truth, so their claims must be evaluated like any other.

I think that the position that you have taken in these points is unbiblical and very dangerous. Demons are supernatural spirit beings who act in supernatural ways in realms that humans cannot understand and cannot examine.

How then are you going to determine validly which activities involve actual contact with and activity by demons and which ones do not?

For example, God has not told us anything about the enchantments that Pharaoh's magicians used to do those miracles. What exactly did they do when they used them? How did they know what to do? Who taught them to do what they did? None of these questions are answerable by any ordinary humans regardless of how well they know the Bible or not.

Kevin Miller's picture

RajeshG wrote:

 

Kevin Miller wrote:

 

Besides, one of the verses you used earlier to support your idea of a "volume rule" for corporate worship was Ps. 149:5  Let the saints be joyful in glory: let them sing aloud upon their beds. Unless people are bringing their beds to the worship gathering, that verse isn't about corporate worship.

 

 

That actually strengthens my point because it shows that even in what appears to be a non-worship setting, God still wants them to sing aloud and not whisper.

Actually, it's faulty logic to think that this verse would prohibit whispered singing. A positive command to sing aloud does not equal a negative command to refrain from whispering. Look at the location of the singing. Does the positive command to sing "upon their beds" equal a negative command to never sing anywhere else? Of course not. Just because one is commanded to sing upon their bed, that doesn't mean one can ONLY sing on their bed. Just because one is commanded to sing "aloud" doesn't mean that one can ONLY sing aloud.

Kevin Miller's picture

RajeshG wrote:

 

Kevin Miller wrote:

So what? The fact that Pharaoh's magicians did something does not mean that EVERY occultist is like Pharaoh's magicians. Some people desire to be occultists and even claim to be occultists, but their mode of operation really is "just sleight of hand, smoke and mirrors, trickery, or any other such thing." Do you deny that those people exist?

 

So what that such people exist? That does not change at all the profound ramifications of what Scripture reveals about Pharaoh's magicians and many other fully authentic professional occultists.

You still haven't explained what you mean by "fully authentic." If Bob the occultist tells you he can contact your dead relative, can you count on him to be :"fully authentic?" Yes, the Bible does describe some occultists, and because the Bible is inspired we can be sure that everything the bible says about them is true. The Bible doesn't mention Bob the occultist however, so how can you be sure that HE is a "fully authentic" one? I'm sure he would claim to be, so is his word good enough?

You make it sound as if "the profound ramifications of what Scripture reveals" means that I have to trust Bob the occultist. 

RajeshG's picture

Kevin Miller wrote:

 

RajeshG wrote:

 

 

Kevin Miller wrote:

 

Besides, one of the verses you used earlier to support your idea of a "volume rule" for corporate worship was Ps. 149:5  Let the saints be joyful in glory: let them sing aloud upon their beds. Unless people are bringing their beds to the worship gathering, that verse isn't about corporate worship.

 

 

That actually strengthens my point because it shows that even in what appears to be a non-worship setting, God still wants them to sing aloud and not whisper.

 

Actually, it's faulty logic to think that this verse would prohibit whispered singing. A positive command to sing aloud does not equal a negative command to refrain from whispering. Look at the location of the singing. Does the positive command to sing "upon their beds" equal a negative command to never sing anywhere else? Of course not. Just because one is commanded to sing upon their bed, that doesn't mean one can ONLY sing on their bed. Just because one is commanded to sing "aloud" doesn't mean that one can ONLY sing aloud.

So, by your "logic," Christians are free to observe the Lord's Supper with French fries and soda pop since there are no negative commands to refrain from doing so, right?

Kevin Miller's picture

RajeshG wrote:

 

Kevin Miller wrote:

 

 

RajeshG wrote:

 

 

Kevin Miller wrote:

 

Besides, one of the verses you used earlier to support your idea of a "volume rule" for corporate worship was Ps. 149:5  Let the saints be joyful in glory: let them sing aloud upon their beds. Unless people are bringing their beds to the worship gathering, that verse isn't about corporate worship.

 

 

That actually strengthens my point because it shows that even in what appears to be a non-worship setting, God still wants them to sing aloud and not whisper.

 

Actually, it's faulty logic to think that this verse would prohibit whispered singing. A positive command to sing aloud does not equal a negative command to refrain from whispering. Look at the location of the singing. Does the positive command to sing "upon their beds" equal a negative command to never sing anywhere else? Of course not. Just because one is commanded to sing upon their bed, that doesn't mean one can ONLY sing on their bed. Just because one is commanded to sing "aloud" doesn't mean that one can ONLY sing aloud.

 

 

So, by your "logic," Christians are free to observe the Lord's Supper with French fries and soda pop since there are no negative commands to refrain from doing so, right?

That's a silly comparison. There are direct instructions for the Lord's Supper. Of course, as long as the bread and wine is provided, then people are free to fellowship together afterwards with French fries and soda pop if they desire, as long as there is enough for everyone..

I was referencing YOUR logic regarding the verse about singing in one's bed. The verse commands us to sing there. Since you believe that a positive command to sing in one's bed means that people can't sing anywhere else, then I hope you have comfortable beds at your worship services. I personally don't believe that one can only sing in their beds, but that is what the verse says, so if my logic is wrong and yours is right, then you must only believe in bed-singing.

RajeshG's picture

Kevin Miller wrote:

 

RajeshG wrote:

 

 

Kevin Miller wrote:

 

 

RajeshG wrote:

 

 

Kevin Miller wrote:

 

Besides, one of the verses you used earlier to support your idea of a "volume rule" for corporate worship was Ps. 149:5  Let the saints be joyful in glory: let them sing aloud upon their beds. Unless people are bringing their beds to the worship gathering, that verse isn't about corporate worship.

 

 

That actually strengthens my point because it shows that even in what appears to be a non-worship setting, God still wants them to sing aloud and not whisper.

 

Actually, it's faulty logic to think that this verse would prohibit whispered singing. A positive command to sing aloud does not equal a negative command to refrain from whispering. Look at the location of the singing. Does the positive command to sing "upon their beds" equal a negative command to never sing anywhere else? Of course not. Just because one is commanded to sing upon their bed, that doesn't mean one can ONLY sing on their bed. Just because one is commanded to sing "aloud" doesn't mean that one can ONLY sing aloud.

 

 

So, by your "logic," Christians are free to observe the Lord's Supper with French fries and soda pop since there are no negative commands to refrain from doing so, right?

 

That's a silly comparison. There are direct instructions for the Lord's Supper. Of course, as long as the bread and wine is provided, then people are free to fellowship together afterwards with French fries and soda pop if they desire, as long as there is enough for everyone..

 

I was referencing YOUR logic regarding the verse about singing in one's bed. The verse commands us to sing there. Since you believe that a positive command to sing in one's bed means that people can't sing anywhere else, then I hope you have comfortable beds at your worship services. I personally don't believe that one can only sing in their beds, but that is what the verse says, so if my logic is wrong and yours is right, then you must only believe in bed-singing.

Wrong. There are other statements about singing in other places, especially in the Lord's House so my position is not based on that one statement. You, on the other hand, do not have a single statement from God anywhere in the Bible about singing that you can legitimately use to justify your use of "whispered" singing. Your so-called logic is the one that is flawed.

How telling that you dismiss my example merely by calling it "silly" and saying that there are "direct instructions for the Lord's Supper."

Your "logic" is that a "positive" command is not enough; there must also be "negative" commands that specify all the things that cannot be done--otherwise, everything is legitimate.

In keeping seemingly with the thinking of some on SI, God created/made French fries and soda pop. God has not prohibited the use of them in the Lord's Supper. Whatever is not prohibited is legitimate.

French fries and soda pop also must be among the all things that are lawful, expedient, and edifying to use in the Lord's Supper because there is no teaching to the contrary.

Pages