By SI Filings
Nov
28
2022
"our prediction of musical events remains inexorably bound to our musical upbringing. To explore this phenomenon, a group of researchers met with the Sámi people, who inhabit the region stretching between the northernmost reaches of Sweden and the Kola Peninsula in Russia." - Neroscience News
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There are 237 Comments
RajeshG wrote:
Just sayin'
If we think that a certain range of vocal techniques and volumes are mandated, and alternatives are excluded, it's worth noting that a quick word search finds a number of examples of "sighing" in Psalms, and of course in 1 Kings 19, God comes to Elijah with a ....whisper. I can certainly imagine composing a hymn about the matter where the approach of the Lord would rightly be communicated that way. Really, if we are to sing of God's goodness and return our praise to Him, shouldn't the ordinary range of human expression--whispering, speaking, singing, shouting, etc..--be in play? That's certainly what Scripture records.
Really, Rajesh, this is a basic logical error on your part, where you're asserting that because God tells Israel to praise Him a certain way in some places, that other ways of praising Him are proscribed. Hasty generalization, among other things.
Regarding the question of the testimonies of unbelievers and "professional occultists", Ron's comment here says it all. To take the testimony of Gene Simmons or Mickey Hart (or whoever) at face value without considering the possibility that part of what they're doing is just part of the schtick, and not a genuine conviction, is a really basic mistake of interpretation. Any lawyer skilled at cross examination would be simply incredulous at that, as would any journalist who says "If your mother says she loves you, check it out."
By the way, Rajesh, I see no attempt on your part to present any genre of music as being uncontaminated by the occult. There's a reason for this. There isn't any.
Aspiring to be a stick in the mud.
Kevin Miller wrote:
Of course, I read what you said. I actually read it over and over several times.
No, that is not what my words are saying. I have never said that they are never wrong. You are the one who is misunderstanding what I have said. Go back and read again what I actually said.
Kevin Miller wrote:
No, what God commands is what must be done. Singing out loud is not just the opposite of singing in our thoughts--it is also the opposite of whispering.
When someone physically is incapable of doing something, that does not legitimize that those who are capable of doing what God commands can characteristically choose not to do what He says and do the same thing as what those who are incapable do because of their genuine inability to do what God commands.
There is zero Bible basis to hold that singing in worship that is characteristically whispering is acceptable in corporate worship.
RajeshG wrote:
If a professional occultist tells someone that they have made contact with the spirit of that someone's dead relative, should that person believe the professional occultist? After all, according to you, professional occultists pass on fully authentic information about their fully authentic occult practices. If the occultist should not be believed, then why should this fully authentic information not be believed?
Kevin Miller wrote:
This is utter nonsense. You refuse to deal with what the Bible reveals and the inescapable implications of what God has revealed. Either you believe that the people that God says were professional occultists were fully authentic professional occultists or not. You have no biblical basis to say that God is wrong and that they were not.
Either you believe that the people that God says were professional occultists engaged in fully authentic occult practices or you do not. You have no biblical basis to say that they did not engage in such fully authentic practices.
Either you believe that those people could and did transmit fully authentic information to others about those fully authentic occult practices or you do not. You have no biblical basis for saying that they did not.
The bottom line is that the biblical data shows that you and anybody else who denies the full authenticity of the people that God says were professional occultists are wrong. Those people whom God says were professional occultists were exactly what He said they were.
RajeshG wrote:
I'm pretty sure the quotation about CCM being characterized by "whispering" is hyperbole anyway. If anything, I've found CCM to be characterized by too much volume rather than too little.
Kevin Miller wrote:
Yeah, right. The Bible says that God has commanded people to sing aloud. That command and many other passages show plainly that singing that is characteristically whispering is not acceptable to God in corporate worship.
RajeshG wrote:
Instead you accuse me of claiming that "God is wrong." That is such hubris on your part to claim that asking you legitimate questions about your view is the same as saying God is wrong.
I'll repeat my last question to you to see if you actually want to have an honest conversation or not.
If a professional occultist tells someone that they have made contact with the spirit of that someone's dead relative, should that person believe the professional occultist? After all, according to you, professional occultists pass on fully authentic information about their fully authentic occult practices. If the occultist should not be believed, then why should this fully authentic information not be believed?
Kevin Miller wrote:
No, I am not going to answer that question or any other question that you direct to me until you deal fully with the biblical data. You are falsely taking what I have said about the biblical data and wrongly extrapolating from it to say false things about what I am saying. It's not my problem that you do not read carefully what I have said repeatedly about the biblical data and then misapply it.
RajeshG wrote:
The Biblical data is absolutely true and without error of any kind. Whatever the inspired Word of God says that professional occultists have said, we know for a fact that they have said it because the Bible is inspired and without error. What more needs to be dealt with in regards to the biblical data? I've never once denied anything that the Bible has said about professional occultists, so I don't know what else you want me to say about the biblical data.
It seems to me that you use the biblical data about occultists when someone even suggests that occultists today might be mistaken or even lying at times. But how does the biblical data refute that possibility? I'm not sure, but that doesn't stop you from repeating it over and over again as if someone shouldn't even suggest that occultists might be wrong. Does an inspired account of a truthful occultist really show that all occultists are truthful? No one is saying that all occultists lie all the time, so you wouldn't need to be refuting that illogical claim that no one is making. No, you bring up the "biblical data" when someone even suggests that occultists might be wrong.
So how am I falsely extrapolating what you say about the biblical data? What is it exactly that you want this biblical data to be showing? If you agree that occultists can be wrong and you simply want to show that they sometimes tell the truth, then we are in absolute agreement. I've stated previously that they can tell the truth, but when I suggest they might be wrong, you push back with the biblical data, so I can ONLY assume that you think they can't be wrong. Why else would you argue that point with me?
RajeshG wrote:
I think in many cases the acceptability of whispering would depend on the song. I've been in charge of the Awana program at my church for 10 years and sometimes we have the kids corporately sing a song that starts "Stand up and shout it if you love my Jesus. Sit down and whisper if you love my Lord." We have the kids stand up and shout while singing the first line and they sit down and whisper while singing the second line. Is it your position that God is pleased with their singing of the first line but He is displeased when they whisper the second line?
Kevin Miller wrote:
I have never done what you wrongly claim in these comments. You are the one who has misread over and over again what I have said to incorrectly repeatedly suggest my holding things that I have never said.
Holding a particular position concerning whether occultists can or cannot lie, etc. has never been my point.
Kevin Miller wrote:
The Bible never talks about what you do in Awanas as being corporate worship. What the Bible does talk about in 1 Cor. 14 and many other passages that are about corporate worship shows very plainly that singing that is characterized as whispering is not acceptable corporate worship.
Scripture reveals that leaven could be used acceptably in one aspect of worship but could not be used acceptably in any offering by fire on an altar. Similarly, even if you could show that whispering singing is acceptable for your kids' programs, that would not establish anything about singing that is characterized as whispering being acceptable to God in corporate worship.
Pharaoh's magicians and their enchantments
The Spirit reveals that Pharaoh's magicians used enchantments to effect demonic miracles (Exod. 7:11, 22; 8:7). Those magicians were fully authentic professional occultists (there is zero basis for anyone to hold that they were merely shysters, charlatans, fakes, etc. who just pretended to be magicians, etc.).
When those fully authentic professional occultists used their enchantments to effect those miracles, they engaged in fully authentic occult practices. No one has any basis to legitimately hold that what they did was just sleight of hand, smoke and mirrors, trickery, or any other such thing.
When those fully authentic professional occultists used those enchantments, they had all the fully authentic information that they needed to do so, and they knew fully authentically how to do everything that they needed to do to use those enchantments to do those miracles.
These fully authentic professional occultists did not get any of their information about how to do those fully authentic miracles from the Bible, from God, from any godly prophet, or from any other godly source.
They did not need to have anything from the Bible to fully authentically know what they needed to know and to do what they fully authentically did when they used those enchantments.
These fully authentic professional occultists were fully authentically able to transmit all the fully authentic information about how to do those fully authentic occult practices that they engaged in when they used those enchantments to do those miracles.
In this manner, not just in their case, but similarly also in many other cases in Scripture, we can know with absolute certainty that fully authentic occultists engaged in fully authentic occult activities without any need for any information from the Bible.
Moreover, they could and undoubtedly did transmit all that fully authentic information to others about those fully authentic practices without any need for anything from the Bible.
RajeshG wrote:
RajeshG wrote:
Also, some fully authentic occultists claim to have the fully authentic practice of contacting dead relatives for people. Is that actually a fully authentic practice?
RajeshG wrote:
Besides, one of the verses you used earlier to support your idea of a "volume rule" for corporate worship was Ps. 149:5 Let the saints be joyful in glory: let them sing aloud upon their beds. Unless people are bringing their beds to the worship gathering, that verse isn't about corporate worship.
Kevin Miller wrote:
That actually strengthens my point because it shows that even in what appears to be a non-worship setting, God still wants them to sing aloud and not whisper.
Kevin Miller wrote:
So what that such people exist? That does not change at all the profound ramifications of what Scripture reveals about Pharaoh's magicians and many other fully authentic professional occultists.
RajeshG wrote:
It means the following:
1. We need to be able to discern true occultists from those that are fake, to know which practices God hates and that we must avoid.
2. To do so, we actually have to do some evaluation (which will require research and understanding), not just accept what is said by any of these people. Just as prophets in the OT were tested so that the people could know which are true, we need to do the same, whether in regard to false prophets of Christianity or practitioners of other religions. This is particularly true when the other religion claims to be the true Christianity, and things look good until examined closely. Satan is particularly good at this type of deception.
3. Once we find true occultists, we also know that they can lie as well as tell the truth, so their claims must be evaluated like any other.
4. Even when we locate true occultists, the circumstances of life are so common that we cannot avoid everything done or used by an occultist just because they do so. If I were, for example, to find out that an occult group somewhere on earth required their practitioners to wear black leather jackets for all their ceremonies, that doesn't make the wearing of a black leather jacket uniquely an occult practice and wrong for me to do. If they were in my local context, I might avoid doing so to make it clear I'm not associated with them, but that would be for the sake of others' consciences, not my own.
The same would apply to the eating of certain foods, the use of objects, chemicals, etc., or use of particular musical forms. Misuse or abuse of something God has made and given to us, whether food, music, or even marital relations, does not spoil the proper use of those things when used as God intended. Romans 14 means that context matters, but that chapter also makes clear that the things themselves are not the issue.
I probably wouldn't disagree with you about avoiding to the extent possible any contact or association with the occult. We do have to know enough, however, to be able to do so, especially when it isn't blatantly obvious. We cannot just assume that anything someone who claims to be an occultist is telling us must be true, and we can't possibly avoid everything in life that may somehow, somewhere, be associated with an occult practice. To do so would mean having to leave this world.
Dave Barnhart
dcbii wrote:
I will respond to your other points later when I have more time. There is zero biblical basis for anyone to claim legitimately that all kinds of instrumental music are "particular musical forms" that "God has made and given to us." There also is zero biblical basis to hold validly that every kind of instrumental music has its "proper use of [it] when used as God intended." If you believe otherwise, you have the burden of proof of showing from the Bible how and why these statements are true for every kind of instrumental music.
Furthermore, once you have proven that both of these statements are true biblically, you then have to prove biblically that it is also true that every kind of instrumental music is acceptable to God for use in corporate worship.
RajeshG wrote:
I won't continue down this path, but will briefly respond to refer you to a comment I made pages (also seems "ages") ago that this is down to a version of the RPW question. Is what is not prohibited legitimate, or must anything legitimate be that which is commanded, commended, or given as an example? The philosophy taken on this question is at the foundation of what you are saying here, and how you answer that question will also answer this one. Suffice it to say we appear to be on opposite sides of this one. I don't think that further discussion here will change that.
Dave Barnhart
dcbii wrote:
You made statements to the effect that God is the Creator/Maker of all kinds of music. That is a foundational theological claim that does not have anything to do with the RWP question. Since you made the claim, you really should be prepared to defend your claim with thorough and careful biblical argumentation.
dcbii wrote:
I think that the position that you have taken in these points is unbiblical and very dangerous. Demons are supernatural spirit beings who act in supernatural ways in realms that humans cannot understand and cannot examine.
How then are you going to determine validly which activities involve actual contact with and activity by demons and which ones do not?
For example, God has not told us anything about the enchantments that Pharaoh's magicians used to do those miracles. What exactly did they do when they used them? How did they know what to do? Who taught them to do what they did? None of these questions are answerable by any ordinary humans regardless of how well they know the Bible or not.
RajeshG wrote:
RajeshG wrote:
You still haven't explained what you mean by "fully authentic." If Bob the occultist tells you he can contact your dead relative, can you count on him to be :"fully authentic?" Yes, the Bible does describe some occultists, and because the Bible is inspired we can be sure that everything the bible says about them is true. The Bible doesn't mention Bob the occultist however, so how can you be sure that HE is a "fully authentic" one? I'm sure he would claim to be, so is his word good enough?
You make it sound as if "the profound ramifications of what Scripture reveals" means that I have to trust Bob the occultist.
Kevin Miller wrote:
So, by your "logic," Christians are free to observe the Lord's Supper with French fries and soda pop since there are no negative commands to refrain from doing so, right?
RajeshG wrote:
I was referencing YOUR logic regarding the verse about singing in one's bed. The verse commands us to sing there. Since you believe that a positive command to sing in one's bed means that people can't sing anywhere else, then I hope you have comfortable beds at your worship services. I personally don't believe that one can only sing in their beds, but that is what the verse says, so if my logic is wrong and yours is right, then you must only believe in bed-singing.
Kevin Miller wrote:
Wrong. There are other statements about singing in other places, especially in the Lord's House so my position is not based on that one statement. You, on the other hand, do not have a single statement from God anywhere in the Bible about singing that you can legitimately use to justify your use of "whispered" singing. Your so-called logic is the one that is flawed.
How telling that you dismiss my example merely by calling it "silly" and saying that there are "direct instructions for the Lord's Supper."
Your "logic" is that a "positive" command is not enough; there must also be "negative" commands that specify all the things that cannot be done--otherwise, everything is legitimate.
In keeping seemingly with the thinking of some on SI, God created/made French fries and soda pop. God has not prohibited the use of them in the Lord's Supper. Whatever is not prohibited is legitimate.
French fries and soda pop also must be among the all things that are lawful, expedient, and edifying to use in the Lord's Supper because there is no teaching to the contrary.
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