Why Certain Types of Music Make Our Brains Sing, and Others Don’t
“our prediction of musical events remains inexorably bound to our musical upbringing. To explore this phenomenon, a group of researchers met with the Sámi people, who inhabit the region stretching between the northernmost reaches of Sweden and the Kola Peninsula in Russia.” - Neroscience News
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[Kevin Miller]Yeah, right. Scripture condemns witchcraft categorically and does not list all the hundreds or thousands or whatever number of different things there are that are distinctively of witchcraft. You want to claim that God has to have given us in Scripture itself such exhaustive listings of everything that is authentically of witchcraft for us to know that it is of witchcraft? That would be nonsense.So what you are saying is that you can make a declarative assertion that something is a “distinctive thing” in the realm of the occult WITHOUT having to then make a Biblical case for it. The assertion itself is enough? What kind of crazy logic is that? Calling it a “distinctive thing” tells us that you believe there are distinctive biblical characteristics to it that show it to be of the occult, but you then refuse to back up that assertion with the Biblical distinctives. That’s crazy logic. Telling someone that they then have to bibilcally disprove your crazy logic is even crazier logic. It’s clear that you don’t have an actual biblical case to make about instrumental music and you are just throwing out assertions.
You also want to assert as valid that since Scripture does not say that there is any music in witchcraft, we have to believe that there is no music in witchcraft? That would be a misuse of Scripture. God has intentionally not given us details about the occult. His not having done so does not mean that anything that is not mentioned in Scripture as part of an occult practice is not authentically part of that practice.
Logically speaking, you cannot prove a negative, which is exactly what Rajesh is demanding others do here. It’s really akin to the game of “Calvinball” in the comic strip Calvin and Hobbes, where Calvin changes the rules whenever Hobbes gets the upper hand in a game. The parallel rule from logic is that if you cannot disprove a hypothesis, you simultaneously cannot prove it.
Congratulations, Rajesh. You’ve demonstrated that your own hypothesis is not sustainable.
Really, the passages that need to be expressed in this debate are those like Psalms 149 and 150, as well as the entire book of Galatians, which expresses God’s anger at those who would bind His people by Pharisaical rules in no uncertain terms, as in Galatians 5:12. If it were God’s will that we eschew every form of music that has connections to pagan worship, we would expect that God’s Word would tell us that, say, Babylonian or Egyptian genre/instrumentation/ poetic forms are completely unacceptable.
But it doesn’t, and in the same way, classicists tell us about the startling similarities between the poetic and musical forms and instrumentation of the ancient Semitic and Mediterranean cultures, similarities that persist to this day, really. So if you eschew the forms of Egypt or Babylon, you simultaneously find yourself eschewing the forms of the Psalms. Oopsie.
So the whole deal is a logical and theological dead end, really. As for myself, since it’s New Year’s Eve, I’ll close with this adaptation from Chaim Witz’s minimum nadir:
I wanna praise the Lord all night…..and worship every day!
Aspiring to be a stick in the mud.
[RajeshG]Yeah, right. Scripture condemns witchcraft categorically and does not list all the hundreds or thousands or whatever number of different things there are that are distinctively of witchcraft. You want to claim that God has to have given us in Scripture itself such exhaustive listings of everything that is authentically of witchcraft for us to know that it is of witchcraft? That would be nonsense.
This is another of the little shenanigans you try to pull in our conversations. You are accusing me of wanting to claim something I never tried to claim. YOU were the one who talked about “distinctive things of that realm” when referring to the occult. I just wanted to know the “distinctives” you use to proclaim something as distinctively of the occult. I did NOT claim that Scripture gives us “exhaustive listings of everything that is authentically of witchcraft.” It is a misrepresentation, and not just a misunderstanding, to say that I want to claim that.
You also want to assert as valid that since Scripture does not say that there is any music in witchcraft, we have to believe that there is no music in witchcraft?
This is another blatant misrepresentation. Where did I even come close to saying that there is no music use in witchcraft? People who practice the occult use many different things, such as knives, goblets, whips, brooms, cauldrons, and yes, even music. Are knives, goblets, whips, brooms, cauldrons, and music all “unclean things” and forbidden from any use because they have been used in witchcraft?
Oh, I’m sure you are going to say it is just “kinds” of music that are forbidden, but would the same be true for knives, goblets, whips, brooms, and cauldrons? Are there some “distinctives” we can use to determine if some “kind” of something is actually a “distinctive thing of that realm” of the occult, and not just something that has been used by them but is still acceptable for our use?
[Kevin Miller]My responses were to the outrageous statements in your post. In addition, I put question marks at the end of my statements to qualify what I said, but apparently you did not read what I said carefully enough to see that.This is another of the little shenanigans you try to pull in our conversations. You are accusing me of wanting to claim something I never tried to claim. YOU were the one who talked about “distinctive things of that realm” when referring to the occult. I just wanted to know the “distinctives” you use to proclaim something as distinctively of the occult. I did NOT claim that Scripture gives us “exhaustive listings of everything that is authentically of witchcraft.” It is a misrepresentation, and not just a misunderstanding, to say that I want to claim that.
This is another blatant misrepresentation. Where did I even come close to saying that there is no music use in witchcraft? People who practice the occult use many different things, such as knives, goblets, whips, brooms, cauldrons, and yes, even music. Are knives, goblets, whips, brooms, cauldrons, and music all “unclean things” and forbidden from any use because they have been used in witchcraft?
Oh, I’m sure you are going to say it is just “kinds” of music that are forbidden, but would the same be true for knives, goblets, whips, brooms, and cauldrons? Are there some “distinctives” we can use to determine if some “kind” of something is actually a “distinctive thing of that realm” of the occult, and not just something that has been used by them but is still acceptable for our use?
In any case, I am not going to get pulled into another long series of exchanges about things that are non-issues such as knives, goblets, whips, brooms, and cauldrons. It is ridiculous that you keep bringing up such things (like colors, slide projectors, etc) that you know fully well are of no relevance concerning what is offered to God in Christian worship.
Here is your original response:
“So what you are saying is that you can make a declarative assertion that something is a “distinctive thing” in the realm of the occult WITHOUT having to then make a Biblical case for it. The assertion itself is enough? What kind of crazy logic is that? Calling it a “distinctive thing” tells us that you believe there are distinctive biblical characteristics to it that show it to be of the occult, but you then refuse to back up that assertion with the Biblical distinctives. That’s crazy logic. Telling someone that they then have to bibilcally disprove your crazy logic is even crazier logic. It’s clear that you don’t have an actual biblical case to make about instrumental music and you are just throwing out assertions.”
This is a completely false claim: “Calling it a “distinctive thing” tells us that you believe there are distinctive biblical characteristics to it that show it to be of the occult.” No, holding that something is distinctively of the occult does not in any way mean that I “believe there are distinctive biblical characteristics to it to show it to be of the occult.”
Just as you talk about the occult having all those things (knives, etc.) and none of those are talked about in the Bible, so there is plenty of valid information about occult music that is information that is not from the Bible.
[RajeshG]Even with the question marks, it sounded like you were assuming that I wanted to claim that position, but I’m willing to admit that I came down too hard on you and I retract my accusation that you had misrepresented me when you had simply misunderstood me. I apologize.My responses were to the outrageous statements in your post. In addition, I put question marks at the end of my statements to qualify what I said, but apparently you did not read what I said carefully enough to see that.
In any case, I am not going to get pulled into another long series of exchanges about things that are non-issues such as knives, goblets, whips, brooms, and cauldrons. It is ridiculous that you keep bringing up such things (like colors, slide projectors, etc) that you know fully well are of no relevance concerning what is offered to God in Christian worship.Using technology such as slide projectors IS of relevance in regards to Christian worship. According to the logic you have often repeated, someone who says that technology is outside the realm of satanic influence would have to prove that point scripturally, wouldn’t they?
Since we are obligated to stay away from things of the occult, then that obligation would apply to matters of everyday life as well as matters of Christian worship, wouldn’t it? I’m sure you don’t believe that the prohibition of the occult only applies in matters of Christian worship, so it’s really not ridiculous to discuss matters of everyday life.
Just as you talk about the occult having all those things (knives, etc.) and none of those are talked about in the Bible, so there is plenty of valid information about occult music that is information that is not from the Bible.
And that means we have to evaluate the information and see if applications drawn from the evaluation of that information are truly biblical. Does the information about the occultic use of knives mean that certain kinds of knives can never be used to cut communion bread because those kinds of knives are occultic? Would occultic use create an “uncleanness” for a particular kind of knife?
You say, “there is plenty of valid information about occult music,” but you have also warned in other threads about researching things of the occult.
You say this information “is not from the Bible,” so it must be written by humans since “God has intentionally not given us details about the occult,” but then you also make statements like: “humans are completely unable to rightly evaluate things of supernatural evil merely by experiencing them. Experiencing such things and seeking to assess them by merely human means and knowledge is a patently unbiblical and faulty approach to such things.” So are we supposed to rely on this extrabiblical information or not?
[RajeshG]I just thought of a verse to show that’s it’s not ridiculous to speak of everyday things when talking about offering worship to God. 1 Cor 10:31 says, “Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God.” Since whatever we do is to be done to the glory of God, then we can’t separate out anything in life as being of “no relevance” in regards to Christian worship. Our entire lives should be lives of giving glory to God, which is Christian worship.In any case, I am not going to get pulled into another long series of exchanges about things that are non-issues such as knives, goblets, whips, brooms, and cauldrons. It is ridiculous that you keep bringing up such things (like colors, slide projectors, etc) that you know fully well are of no relevance concerning what is offered to God in Christian worship.
[Kevin Miller]Using factual written information about a subject discreetly is not at all the same thing as experiencing it yourself. As I have proven from Scripture in a previous thread, unbelievers, including occultists, can provide and have provided valid information about occult practices.So are we supposed to rely on this extrabiblical information or not?
God even calls our attention in Scripture to extensive written records about Manasseh’s sinful occult practices that were recorded in other writings but not in Scripture:
2 Kings 21:6 And he made his son pass through the fire, and observed times, and used enchantments, and dealt with familiar spirits and wizards: he wrought much wickedness in the sight of the LORD, to provoke him to anger… . Now the rest of the acts of Manasseh, and all that he did, and his sin that he sinned, are they not written in the book of the chronicles of the kings of Judah?
2 Chronicles 33:18 Now the rest of the acts of Manasseh, and his prayer unto his God, and the words of the seers that spake to him in the name of the LORD God of Israel, behold, they are written in the book of the kings of Israel. 19 His prayer also, and how God was intreated of him, and all his sin, and his trespass, and the places wherein he built high places, and set up groves and graven images, before he was humbled: behold, they are written among the sayings of the seers.
[Kevin Miller]I just thought of a verse to show that’s it’s not ridiculous to speak of everyday things when talking about offering worship to God. 1 Cor 10:31 says, “Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God.” Since whatever we do is to be done to the glory of God, then we can’t separate out anything in life as being of “no relevance” in regards to Christian worship. Our entire lives should be lives of giving glory to God, which is Christian worship.
There is a place to discuss such things, but this thread is not a general discussion on such things. These things are not relevant to a discussion about what we are supposed to understand about the kinds of instrumental music that cannot be offered acceptably to God either in corporate worship or individual worship.
[RajeshG]Conversations expand all the time, and YOU were the one who first brought up the occult and things that are acceptable to God in a thread that didn’t have to do with the occult or God’s acceptance of something. In the FOURTH post of this thread, you said the following:There is a place to discuss such things, but this thread is not a general discussion on such things. These things are not relevant to a discussion about what we are supposed to understand about the kinds of instrumental music that cannot be offered acceptably to God either in corporate worship or individual worship.
This study provides some basis for believers rejecting even passive exposure (as much as is possible) to unacceptable kinds of music so that their musical tastes do not become (any more) warped over time than they may already have been at the point of their conversion. Christians who falsely assume that all kinds of music are neutral or amoral and on that basis disobey divine prohibitions against the occult endanger themselves and others in that manner because of their acting in accord with their false presuppositions and assumptions about music.
YOU were the one who first talked about the occult and “passive exposure” and so it’s entirely reasonable to expand upon your position with questions about the potential effects of other passive exposure to things and whether those other things also cause the same type of unacceptability to God as what you say certain music has. I think my questions are well in line with the discussion that you started.
[RajeshG]I’ve always felt this is a rather weak point on your part.Using factual written information about a subject discreetly is not at all the same thing as experiencing it yourself. As I have proven from Scripture in a previous thread, unbelievers, including occultists, can provide and have provided valid information about occult practices.
God even calls our attention in Scripture to extensive written records about Manasseh’s sinful occult practices that were recorded in other writings but not in Scripture:
2 Kings 21:6 And he made his son pass through the fire, and observed times, and used enchantments, and dealt with familiar spirits and wizards: he wrought much wickedness in the sight of the LORD, to provoke him to anger… . Now the rest of the acts of Manasseh, and all that he did, and his sin that he sinned, are they not written in the book of the chronicles of the kings of Judah?
2 Chronicles 33:18 Now the rest of the acts of Manasseh, and his prayer unto his God, and the words of the seers that spake to him in the name of the LORD God of Israel, behold, they are written in the book of the kings of Israel. 19 His prayer also, and how God was intreated of him, and all his sin, and his trespass, and the places wherein he built high places, and set up groves and graven images, before he was humbled: behold, they are written among the sayings of the seers.
When an inspired writer points out the existence of a written record, he is not claiming that the written record would have to be entirely factual and could not be questioned about it’s factuality. This is especially true about records written by occultists, whose minds have been warped by demonic influence. Occultist have written about their use of many items and make claims as to how those items have effects upon the spirit world or have spiritual effects upon themselves, but we have no way of knowing if their perceptions are indeed accurate. Considering all the things that occultists have used in their practices, we don’t have warrant to say that all of them are unacceptable for any other use simply because they have been used by occultists. I am well aware that you yourself are NOT saying that all would be unacceptable, but how can we really tell which ones are permanently unacceptable to God and which ones aren’t without biblical guidelines to go by? Just saying that they are occultic does not make them permanently unacceptable for other uses.
Secondly, when an inspired writer points out the existence of a written record, he is not giving the readers a charge to go search out that record to read the list of sins or the sayings of occultists (even if he’s going to use that list discreetly).
Thirdly, the use of these written records is to point out abundance of actual occultic sinfulness on the part of Manasseh. If people were to read the lists of occultic acts, which the writer isn’t saying that they should, they could go to Scripture and see where God had forbidden the use of enchantments and familiar spirits and high places and those kinds of groves and graven images. Using those things were actual occult practices which we see in the Bible as sinful. Proclaiming those things as sinful is a far cry from proclaiming a particular kind of music as prohibited by God even when it’s not being used in an occult practice but is being used in Christian worship.
[Kevin Miller]I went back and read over all the comments in a previous thread that was specifically about Manasseh and the occult. Noting the nature of our exchanges in that thread, I am doubtful that much has changed in our many disagreements.I’ve always felt this is a rather weak point on your part.
When an inspired writer points out the existence of a written record, he is not claiming that the written record would have to be entirely factual and could not be questioned about it’s factuality. This is especially true about records written by occultists, whose minds have been warped by demonic influence. Occultist have written about their use of many items and make claims as to how those items have effects upon the spirit world or have spiritual effects upon themselves, but we have no way of knowing if their perceptions are indeed accurate. Considering all the things that occultists have used in their practices, we don’t have warrant to say that all of them are unacceptable for any other use simply because they have been used by occultists. I am well aware that you yourself are NOT saying that all would be unacceptable, but how can we really tell which ones are permanently unacceptable to God and which ones aren’t without biblical guidelines to go by? Just saying that they are occultic does not make them permanently unacceptable for other uses.
Secondly, when an inspired writer points out the existence of a written record, he is not giving the readers a charge to go search out that record to read the list of sins or the sayings of occultists (even if he’s going to use that list discreetly).
Thirdly, the use of these written records is to point out abundance of actual occultic sinfulness on the part of Manasseh. If people were to read the lists of occultic acts, which the writer isn’t saying that they should, they could go to Scripture and see where God had forbidden the use of enchantments and familiar spirits and high places and those kinds of groves and graven images. Using those things were actual occult practices which we see in the Bible as sinful. Proclaiming those things as sinful is a far cry from proclaiming a particular kind of music as prohibited by God even when it’s not being used in an occult practice but is being used in Christian worship.
Your first point is refuted by the fact that the information that was recorded was recorded in the sayings of seers, who were prophets of God.
Your second point is negated by an application of 2 Tim. 3:16-17 to the record. God wanted the original readers and all subsequent readers to know that this additional information about Manasseh’s occult sinfulness was recorded in other literature. He also wants us to profit from our knowing of the existence of those records written by the seers and what their content was.
Your third point is not correct because the statement specifies that the rest of the acts of Manasseh were recorded, and it says that what was recorded was about all that he did. As is true in Scripture where prophets sometimes provide many details about certain people’s sinful occult activities, there is no reason to hold that the information recorded in those other writings merely listed the sinful things that he did without giving any additional information about anything that he did.
[RajeshG]I don’t see as how the writings of seers who were prophets of God would support this statement of yours - ” As I have proven from Scripture in a previous thread, unbelievers, including occultists, can provide and have provided valid information about occult practices.”Your first point is refuted by the fact that the information that was recorded was recorded in the sayings of seers, who were prophets of God.
Instead of providing support that unbelievers and occultists are to be relied on for their information, you then give me info about writings from prophets of God that are not in Scripture. How does that support your point about occultists giving us information?
[Kevin Miller]We have already had that discussion in another thread. I refer you to that thread for my presentation of how I have established from Scripture what is true about fully authentic occultists and their fully authentic abilities to provide fully authentic information about their fully authentic occult practices:I don’t see as how the writings of seers who were prophets of God would support this statement of yours - ” As I have proven from Scripture in a previous thread, unbelievers, including occultists, can provide and have provided valid information about occult practices.”
Instead of providing support that unbelievers and occultists are to be relied on for their information, you then give me info about writings from prophets of God that are not in Scripture. How does that support your point about occultists giving us information?
Two Important Insights from the Biblical Record about Manasseh
In the Asian country of Tibet, indigenous occultists use real human skulls as drums in their occult musical activities. These occultists do so in order to have contact with spirit beings and have occult experiences through the demonic powers of the spirit beings.
Plainly, such musical activity and such kinds of instrumental music are entirely unacceptable to God. God’s people are forbidden from having anything to do with such things.
[RajeshG]Of course it’s unacceptable to try to have contact with spirit beings. Nobody would argue with that. The use of a human skull to contact spirits is displeasing to God. However, the use of a human skull by occultists does not make the skull unusable in other situations. Various science classes use human skulls, Should we find that use problematic due to the use of human skulls by occultist?In the Asian country of Tibet, indigenous occultists use real human skulls as drums in their occult musical activities. These occultists do so in order to have contact with spirit beings and have occult experiences through the demonic powers of the spirit beings.
Plainly, such musical activity and such kinds of instrumental music are entirely unacceptable to God. God’s people are forbidden from having anything to do with such things.
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