At Dave Ramsey’s company, enforcement of sexual ethics under scrutiny

Accusations and counter-accusations center on incidents in which the company allegedly enforced or failed to enforce its sexual ethics requirements. - RNS

Discussion

This is problem when you conflate a business into a parachurch organization and possibly even into a church.

…when you have a rule and selectively apply it. Best way to make tort lawyers salivate, just like Pavlov’s dogs when a bell rings.

Aspiring to be a stick in the mud.

In 2022, too many American churches have fallen hook, line and sinker for the “no debt” brass ring. In too many churches (I’ve personally seen several and heard of way more) being out of debt is the idol of perfection, of holiness. It used to be “cleanliness is next to godliness”. Now its “lack of indebtedness is next to godliness.” If you have no debt, then God has blessed you with wisdom, so the thought goes. If you have a mortgage, well that is tolerated. If you have credit card debt, you are dismissed as a spend-thrift. And God alone can help the poor wayward soul with student loan debt. Shame on you! Didn’t you work harder while going to school?

I’ve applied to be pastor at churches, more than one, where I was asked in detail (yes, detail) if I had debt and to list it out. Never asked if I was addicted to pornography, or cheated on my wife, or read my Bible. But debt… NO SIR, we cannot tolerate that.

In a desperate attempt to find a new church home I have visited church after church, dozens, where the ONLY Wednesday night class for adults is Dave Ramsey… Really… A whole Bible full of material and the only thing that matters is not having debt.

This is the 2022 Dave Ramsey helped build and I hope it collapses around the rotten foundation that it is.

Is lack of debt good? Yes, but it is not an idol my friend.

I have visited church after church, dozens, where the ONLY Wednesday night class for adults is Dave Ramsey

So you have visited at least 24 churches where the only Wednesday night class for adults is Dave Ramsey?

I am throwing a flag on this one.

Have you considered that perhaps your difficulty in finding a church is that there is no church that is good enough for you?

  • I don’t see “debt free” as idolatry and I don’t see churches (or Ramsey) promoting it that way
  • I’m a “good debt” / “bad debt” guy. Credit is a great leverage. Use it wisely
  • Credit card interest rates really going up - Average credit card rate highest since 1996
  • It’s more difficult to be generous (in giving) if paying creditor(s)
  • Debt is tough on marriages

No one needs the Ramsey program to get out of debt

No one needs the Ramsey program to get out of debt

I agree with Craig’s points above. No one needs the Ramsey program, but it can be very helpful to those who have a problem and need plan to get out of it. A lot of people simply don’t know what to do.

So, the church where I serve has made it part of the bylaws to not go into debt to build another building if the need arises. Instead, they have committed to saving the money ahead of time.

Before I began serving at the church, no one asked me about my personal finances … other than, “Can you live on what we’re able to pay you?”

That being said, if you have a large amount of debt and you want to go into pastoral ministry, I’d advise you to get it paid off / paid down before doing so.

[T Howard]

So, the church where I serve has made it part of the bylaws to not go into debt to build another building if the need arises. Instead, they have committed to saving the money ahead of time.

I’ve seen this practice at several churches where they would not take on any debt for a building (not sure if it was part of their bylaws, though). I think this is a good practice when it is possible. But I’ve also seen where it can hurt a church as well. In one case, the church was paying an astronomical amount for rent while trying to save for a building. A mortgage on an expensive building would have been more affordable.

In another case, a church spent years in a building they had long since outgrown while saving for their new building. During that time the church was unable to grow due to space constraints, and there is lost income associated with that as well.

I think a key is to have wisdom in taking on debt. Timing and amount of debt are important considerations. Sometimes it may be best to wait and use cash, but other times it might not be a bad idea to have an affordable mortgage.

On personal debt, a church I served at many years ago asked about debt during the hiring process. If I had any considerable amount of debt I would not have gotten the job. They didn’t ask about any moral issues, which they should have. I don’t think questions about debt are necessarily a bad thing, as high debt can be a huge burden on a person and can take an emotional toll. A church might be wise to not hire a pastor who has a debt burden besides all the other burdens a pastor must bear.

Views expressed are always my own and not my employer's, my church's, my family's, my neighbors', or my pets'. The house plants have authorized me to speak for them, however, and they always agree with me.

One thing to note is that a prospective employer will often ask some questions as representative of broader issues. For example, my dad related that when he was coming out of college, one prospective employer put him up in a nice hotel with a little bar in the room. When he called my grandmother, she immediately told him not to partake, because it was actually a test to find out if he was a drunk or otherwise had self-control issues.

Same thing with asking about debt. If you ask about porn use, do you think you’re ever going to get an honest answer? However, you can ask for a credit check and see what he’s got on his credit cards, installment loans, and the like. Secular employers like to do this where it’s allowed—the big question is where you draw the line, and many states ban the credit check because the application is “rough on people who’ve had a rough time in life.”

Back to the subject, my thought is that what Ramsey has going on is analogous to what a lot of secular employers face. For example, it’s at least rumored that Bill Gates was quietly ushered out the door at Microsoft because his patterns of sexual harassment got so obvious, the company’s lawyers went to the board of directors and more or less say “if you don’t show Bill the door, then anyone who is shown the door for this is going to point to his example eventually.” Also, pretty much any talented woman would have started to “swipe next” on opportunities from Microsoft if they’d tolerated that.

In secular companies, the line is generally sexual harassment instead of fornication, or possibly also relationships with subordinates as well, but the principle is the same. Have lines you don’t cross, and be consistent about applying them. If you don’t, then prepare to get to know lawyers on a professional basis in an adversarial context.

Aspiring to be a stick in the mud.

[Larry]

I have visited church after church, dozens, where the ONLY Wednesday night class for adults is Dave Ramsey

So you have visited at least 24 churches where the only Wednesday night class for adults is Dave Ramsey?

I am throwing a flag on this one.

Have you considered that perhaps your difficulty in finding a church is that there is no church that is good enough for you?

In the last 2 years we have visited 19 churches physically, and probably a dozen more I looked online. I don’t ask for much. But if you check your area I’ll bet hundreds of churches no longer have a Wednesday night service for anyone but kids. And if they do, its Ramsey.

Here are examples why I never went back:

1- One large Southern Baptist church’s pastor in this city is proud that he mentions Alabama football in every sermon. I went and he did. I checked online to a few more sermons and he did… Mind you I live in Kansas. That’s Big 12. No one here cares about “Roll Tide.” Go back home. He made the issue. He didn’t even attend Alabama. Just loves their football. Fine. I’ll go somewhere else.

2- Another large church in the city the day we attended the pastor wrote his sermon outline on giant sheets of glass propped up on the stage with paint pens…

3- Smaller churches that are “fundamental” are also KJV only.

4- We went to one and the greeter said women wear dresses or skirts here… So we left. My wife wears dresses, skirts, and (GASP) pants!!! Oh the horror!!!

5- Another one turned out to be the plant of a pastor in Dodge City, which is about 300 miles west of here. The local “serving pastor” runs the service, then you watch either the recording or live stream of the home church in Dodge City… turns out there are a dozen of these “churches” in Kansas now… you go there if you want Larry. I’m not.

6. From 5, several “plants” in my city just play the sermon from the home church… not doing it.

7. Another large church. Turns out have 2 auditoriums. The main one with the pastor and music. You have to get there early to get in that one. All others get shunted ACROSS THE STREET to another building for the overflow where you watch the music and sermon through video… why???

I could go on. Have to get back to work.

To be clear, most churches no longer have Wed night for adults. Kids only. If they do have something, its 9/10 Ramsey.

[mark_smith] 7. Another large church. Turns out have 2 auditoriums. The main one with the pastor and music. You have to get there early to get in that one. All others get shunted ACROSS THE STREET to another building for the overflow where you watch the music and sermon through video… why???

lol. Reminds me of my days attending services while a student at PCC. If you wanted the “live” service you had to get to the Dale Horton Auditorium early. If not, you were stuck watching the service in the overflow in the sports center.

They eventually used assigned service notices. You would be assigned the overflow on certain weeks and receive a notice in your mailbox on the weeks you were to attend the overflow service.

I am going to throw the flag again. Ramsey is 9 weeks long. I do not believe that every single church in America (or Kansas, or your city) does Ramsey every Wednesday, 52 weeks a year, year after year. I know of no churches in this area that do that as the only thing on Wednesdays. In fact, I know of no churches in our area that do it on Wednesday night at all. In fact, I imagine that very very few do that. Maybe they don’t have an adult gathering of some sort. I really don’t know.

But back to the point, Mark. I want to be kind, but you seem like there is no place that is good enough for you. Have you considered that the problem might not be every single church?

Are you trying to be obtuse and argumentative? I never said they run Ramsey 24/7 or all the time. I said they do NOTHING on Wed for adults, except when they do its LIKELY Ramsey.

Larry, you don’t know me, or what I have experienced. So why the attack. What church should I attend? The one where I was accused of being a heretic for preaching a sermon called “The Use of All in Salvation Scriptures?” by a man i thought was my friend? The one where everyone shows up in shorts and flip flops (that’s a dozen evangelical churches easy)? The one with the smoke machine during Sunday morning (that’s another dozen churches)? The one where a guy shouts “Roll Tide” every service at the end? The ones that are KJV only? The one with no one less than 75 years old attending? The 20 American Baptist churches in town? A Presbyterian church though I don’t believe in presbyter leadership or paedo-baptism? The ones with female pastors? The ones that had ridiculous COVID policies so my daughter could not safely attend for 2 years (she has a trach… no interest in caring for her at all… we have to oppose the gubment…) Kansas is a hub of a denomination called Churches of Christ (Restoration). There are a dozen or more in town. They are amillennial. Would you attend an amillennial church? I can’t.

Where?

1- A church that has Sunday AM, PM, and Wed services. Do you know how rare that is? NO CHURCH I can find in my city lists that that is not KJV only as far as I can tell.

2- A church with biblical expositional preaching (not topical). Again hard to find. I have visited a dozen large, prosperous growing churches in my town, all topical. Also smaller churches as well.

3- A church with a youth group not led by latest “cool dude” and where the students are actually Christians. Again, almost impossible. You should see the average evangelical youth group.

4- An evangelical church that sings worship songs NOT WRITTEN by Charismatics. Again, nearly all pastors who trumpet how bad charismatic Christianity plays their music every Sunday. I mean Bethel, Jesus Culture, Hillsong, etc…

That’s probably my top 4. You tell me if that is an absurd list.