At Dave Ramsey’s company, enforcement of sexual ethics under scrutiny

Accusations and counter-accusations center on incidents in which the company allegedly enforced or failed to enforce its sexual ethics requirements. - RNS

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josh p's picture

dcbii wrote:

 

josh p wrote:

 

I'm not concerned with who wrote it but what it communicates. For instance, we use the masters seminary (or whoever it is in that orbit) hymnal and it has Fosdick's song in it.

 

 

Just out of curiosity, are you referring to "Guide Me O Thou Great Jehovah" or to some other song by Fosdick?

 

This one

https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/kevin-deyoung/a-hymn-worth-not-...

josh p's picture

I have no problem signing songs written by heretics. I do it all the time. The issue is when we sing songs that are themselves heretical. Ignorance is bliss is not a good worship methodology IMO.

Larry's picture

Moderator

 The issue is that we are singing things to God that are not true. We (the church general) carefully guard the pulpit but sometimes not what we sing. 

I agree with the last but what in Fosdick's song is not true? I can't recall it all at the moment.

josh p's picture

Larry wrote:

 The issue is that we are singing things to God that are not true. We (the church general) carefully guard the pulpit but sometimes not what we sing. 

I agree with the last but what in Fosdick's song is not true? I can't recall it all at the moment.

A lot of it is authorial intent (he doesn't mean what we mean in many words/phrases) but this verse in particular is troubling. The TGC  article I quoted above explains it well. 
 

"Cure your children’s warring madness;
bend our pride to your control;
shame our wanton, selfish gladness,
rich in things and poor in soul.
Grant us wisdom, grant us courage
lest we miss your kingdom’s goal,
lest we miss your kingdom’s goal."

 

Larry's picture

Moderator

Thanks Josh. I think authorial intent in poetry and songs has more flexibility than in other forms of communication. I am obviously no fan of Fosdick and I don't think it's a great song. I haven't sung in years and won't mind not singing it before Jesus comes. But IMO, that was an uncharacteristically poor effort from DeYoung. The verse he singles out, BTW, is not the verse you cite but the fourth verse.

At the risk of being accused of obtuseness or hard-hearted ignorance, what is the objection to the verse you cite? I would think believing and living by that verse would have changed Fosdick. It was his warring madness that led him to fight the fundamentalists and his controlling pride that led him to think he knew better than Scripture. 

All in all, it's not a great song. But I can probably name a thousand worse songs without having to pull out a hymnal.

josh p's picture

I basically agree about the authorial intent unless I'm absolutely certain the author meant something blasphemous/heretical. I see I quoted the wrong verse but in the verse I quoted I don't think those things are prerequisites for reaching "kingdom's goal." Also, we obviously know that Fosdick's use of the term is not what we believe. 
 

Yes it would have been nice if he lived by what he wrote. I'm of the opinion that there are so many excellent hymns out there that we don't need to sing marginally good or flat out bad theology. 

Larry's picture

Moderator

"kingdom's goal." Also, we obviously know that Fosdick's use of the term is not what we believe. 

I agree. The problem is that I couldn't sing hardly anything if people had to share mine and Jesus's view of the kingdom. 

I'm of the opinion that there are so many excellent hymns out there that we don't need to sing marginally good or flat out bad theology. 

I completely agree with this.

JNoël's picture

Mark_Smith wrote:

1- A church that has Sunday AM, PM, and Wed services. Do you know how rare that is? NO CHURCH I can find in my city lists that that is not KJV only as far as I can tell.

2- A church with biblical expositional preaching (not topical). Again hard to find. I have visited a dozen large, prosperous growing churches in my town, all topical. Also smaller churches as well. 

3- A church with a youth group not led by latest "cool dude" and where the students are actually Christians. Again, almost impossible. You should see the average evangelical youth group.

4- An evangelical church that sings worship songs NOT WRITTEN by Charismatics. Again, nearly all pastors who trumpet how bad charismatic Christianity plays their music every Sunday. I mean Bethel, Jesus Culture, Hillsong, etc...

That's probably my top 4. You tell me if that is an absurd list.

1- We have Sunday AM, PM, and Wednesday, and we aren't KJVO.

2- Expository preaching abounds. Topical is rare.

3- Our senior pastor and assistant pastor, the primary expositors, also lead the teens' studies on Wednesday nights. I think the quantity of teens we have regularly on Wednesday nights is an encouraging and reasonably proportional number to the overall church size.

4- We sing some old hymns (more "very old" hymns; earlier 20th century gospel-ey hymns are rarely, if ever sung) and a variety of songs by SG, CityAlight, Coughlin, Getty, and others. I can't think of any Bethel or Hillsong songs that we have ever sung, but I may be wrong about that. Our instrumentation includes two acoustic guitars, piano, cello, and a keyboard used for background strings.

 

Ashamed of Jesus! of that Friend On whom for heaven my hopes depend! It must not be! be this my shame, That I no more revere His name. -Joseph Grigg (1720-1768)

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