Bible passages that guide us about secular/unbelieving criticisms of Christian worship music/ministry?
“If you sing pop lyrics, you are going to have a problem with your ministry because rock n’ roll by definition, and popular music, is about sexuality.” A judge then interjected, “And demons.” Simmons then repeated, “And demons.”
— Gene Simmons, a famous rock musician; transcribed from a video clip from an episode where he appeared on American Idol
Should Christians care about what secular/unbelieving people say in negative comments such as these about the worship music/ministry of certain Christians? What Bible passages do you think guide us in knowing what to do with such comments?
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For what it’s worth, in Exodus, God does care how things look, feel, and even smell. Check ch 14-16 or so. It seems reasonable to conclude that He is not ambivalent about sound either.
Views expressed are always my own and not my employer's, my church's, my family's, my neighbors', or my pets'. The house plants have authorized me to speak for them, however, and they always agree with me.
We have a friend who invited us to join her for church at a local Calvary Chapel. The sermon was an outstanding exposition of I John 2:15-17. We like congregational singing that is a mix of old and new hymns so the music wasn’t to our taste but I will say this. I come from a background in pop music and their musicians were very good. It was what I would call a “rock” concert that was well-rehearsed and performed. I talked with the pastor after the service and told him I appreciated his sermon but the music wasn’t to our liking and asked him for a quick summary of his philosophy of music. He made it a point that he didn’t see music as an evangelistic tool to reach the lost but that the style was what the majority of his people were familiar with and was a blessing to them.
"Some things are of that nature as to make one's fancy chuckle, while his heart doth ache." John Bunyan
Aaron, that’s the destruction of the Egyptian army in the sea. You do have certain very specific regulations regarding cleanliness and the construction of the Tabernacle, but that still comes down to a question of whether that’s more for God or for us. Given God’s contempt for the offerings of the wicked in the prophets, I’m leaning towards it being more for us—to communicate God’s holiness to us.
Aspiring to be a stick in the mud.
Here is the LA Times on a Hillsong concert where the song was played:
“God’s not impressed with this stage,” said Joel Houston, one of Hillsong United’s five lead singers and a son of the church’s founders, Brian and Bobbie Houston. “He’s not impressed with these lights.” All God cares about, the frontman went on, is encountering “a heart that needs him.”
Yet that stage, with its movable walls of video screens, and those carefully synchronized lights played an undeniable role in Tuesday’s nearly three-hour concert, among the most polished I’ve seen by any act, faith-based or otherwise.
What should we think about this analysis?
How about…that’s nice?
I don’t know, and I still don’t care what they say.
"Our task today is to tell people — who no longer know what sin is...no longer see themselves as sinners, and no longer have room for these categories — that Christ died for sins of which they do not think they’re guilty." - David Wells
But I stopped laughing when my neighbor handed me the postcard. I immediately noticed the collage of big screens, the bright lights, and the friendly people in casual clothes. But what stood out to me more than the images were these three bulletin points:
Real-life answers from the Bible
Fun programs for your kids
Music that you would hear on the radio
That last bullet point made me recoil—and I wasn’t the only one. The face of my sarcastic neighbor changed. She was either sobered or annoyed. Maybe both. She said, “You know, Dave, if I wanted to hear music I’d hear on the radio, I’d stay home and listen to the radio. I’d go to church for a different reason.” I asked my other neighbors, “What do you think? Why would we go to church?” We had a good conversation. No one was converted but I think we made progress.
From an article provided by Aaron Blumer on another thread: https://sharperiron.org/filings/012919/35551
Also from this article that Aaron links to:
Unbelievers see things more clearly than we think. They sniff out our attempts to market Jesus. They see through our sales pitches. They’re far more serious about their worldview than we give them credit for. And I think our ignorance of this fact offends them even more than the content of our worldview.
Is there a reason you re-quoted the material from Aaron’s post? What do you think about that narrative?
John B. Lee
- Music that you would hear on the radio
That last bullet point made me recoil—and I wasn’t the only one. The face of my sarcastic neighbor changed. She was either sobered or annoyed. Maybe both. She said, “You know, Dave, if I wanted to hear music I’d hear on the radio, I’d stay home and listen to the radio. I’d go to church for a different reason.”
Maybe the real problem is that the music you’d hear in my church sounds nothing like what is played on the radio. Well, maybe Christian radio stations, but not the secular rock stations. If I listened to Christian music stations, I would know.
But why should we discuss facts when it’s easier to take flamethrowers to straw men?
As an aside, it was credibly reported that Christians in Rome in AD 60-90 were cannibals who met in tombs and drowned people. Should we have taken those reports seriously as well?
"Our task today is to tell people — who no longer know what sin is...no longer see themselves as sinners, and no longer have room for these categories — that Christ died for sins of which they do not think they’re guilty." - David Wells
There were also rumors their “love feasts” were sexual orgies, too.
Tyler is a pastor in Olympia, WA and works in State government.
[JBL]The Christian author of that article believed that sharing that unbeliever’s remarks was pertinent to the point of his article. It’s relevance to this thread should be plain because it is a current testimony of an unbeliever who expressed disapproval to that Christian minister of what another church in their area was doing musically. From what is stated in the article, it seems that the other unbelieving neighbors shared a similar disapproval.Is there a reason you re-quoted the material from Aaron’s post? What do you think about that narrative?
Back to the start of this, here’s an interesting article about the drama that is KISS featuring Mr. Chaim Witz as….perpetrator. With due respect to the principle of common grace, it’s quite frankly hilarious to see cultural fundamentalists more or less saying “ignore the guys with doctorates in theology who happen to disagree with me, pay intention instead to a guy who gropes his bandmates’ wives (along with innumerable groupies) and wears fishnet pantyhose, pancake makeup, metal studded leather, and platform shoes on stage with a heavy metal band.”
I eagerly await some lessons on bioethics from Warren Hern and Kermit Gosnell. Seriously, while even these people can say some things which happen to be true, we’ve got to evaluate what they’re saying in light of who they are and what their motivations might be, in light of the setting, and in light of what else we know about the matter.
Aspiring to be a stick in the mud.
What about the unbelievers that approved of the music? Does their opinion count? If it does when they don’t approve of the music, why shouldn’t it count when they do approve?
Oh, right. I know the answer to that question already.
"Our task today is to tell people — who no longer know what sin is...no longer see themselves as sinners, and no longer have room for these categories — that Christ died for sins of which they do not think they’re guilty." - David Wells
Jeremiah 40:1 The word that came to Jeremiah from the LORD, after that Nebuzaradan the captain of the guard had let him go from Ramah, when he had taken him being bound in chains among all that were carried away captive of Jerusalem and Judah, which were carried away captive unto Babylon. 2 And the captain of the guard took Jeremiah, and said unto him, The LORD thy God hath pronounced this evil upon this place. 3 Now the LORD hath brought it, and done according as he hath said: because ye have sinned against the LORD, and have not obeyed his voice, therefore this thing is come upon you.
Nebuzaradan, an unsaved Babylonian official, made profoundly spiritual assessments and declared them accurately and communicated that accurate understanding to a true prophet of the Lord.
God also used a donkey to restrain the madness of a false prophet (2 Peter 2:16). So your point is…what exactly? That God uses the unsaved too? That’s hardly news.
"Our task today is to tell people — who no longer know what sin is...no longer see themselves as sinners, and no longer have room for these categories — that Christ died for sins of which they do not think they’re guilty." - David Wells
[Jay]I’m reading through Jeremiah right now and happened to read this passage this morning. I saw its application to this thread as soon as I read it. I’m adding to the compilation of biblical data that many have contributed to this in this thread that either shows or implies that it is wrong to dismiss criticisms of Christian ministry simply because that criticism happens to come from an unbeliever.God also used a donkey to restrain the madness of a false prophet (2 Peter 2:16). So your point is…what exactly? That God uses the unsaved too? That’s hardly news.
As I continue to read through the Bible this year, I’ll be posting any other passages that are relevant that no one has yet mentioned in this thread. There is no need for asking further what is my point when I happen to do so now that it has been plainly set forth to you yet again what I am doing in this thread.
it is wrong to dismiss criticisms of Christian ministry simply because that criticism happens to come from an unbeliever.
The point above is denied by either nobody or nearly nobody
About all that seems to actually be in dispute, after one strips away all the drama, is…
- The relative credibility of various sources of opinion
- The conclusions that can be validly drawn from the opinions of experts
- How 1 Cor 2:14 and similar passages limits the potential value of expert opinion from non-believers
Views expressed are always my own and not my employer's, my church's, my family's, my neighbors', or my pets'. The house plants have authorized me to speak for them, however, and they always agree with me.
it is wrong to dismiss criticisms of Christian ministry simply because that criticism happens to come from an unbeliever.
The point above is denied by either nobody or nearly nobody
I appreciate this.
"Some things are of that nature as to make one's fancy chuckle, while his heart doth ache." John Bunyan
[Aaron Blumer]I am glad that we are in agreement on that point. It was not my intent to go further than this in this thread.The point above is denied by either nobody or nearly nobody
About all that seems to actually be in dispute, after one strips away all the drama, is…
- The relative credibility of various sources of opinion
- The conclusions that can be validly drawn from the opinions of experts
- How 1 Cor 2:14 and similar passages limits the potential value of expert opinion from non-believers
To evaluate these other points thoroughly would require a lot more discussion. Based on what I am observing in my other threads, especially the polls, it seems unlikely that there would be much agreement on broader points.
Thanks for your contributions to this discussion.
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