Theology Thursday - Ernest Pickering on "New Evangelicalism"
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Donald Pfaffe, "Views Of New Evangelicalism," CENQ 02:2 (Summer 1959)
In the spring of 1959, Ernest Pickering wrote an article for the Central Bible Quarterly entitled “The Present Status of the New Evangelicalism.”1 This was only one of the first in an eventual avalanche of articles written by passionate and articulate fundamentalists, beginning in the late 1950s, as the breach between the “New Evangelicalism” and “Fundamentalism” became, for many men, a bridge too far.
Elsewhere, Robert Ketchum wrote to GARBC churches and pleaded with them to not participate in Billy Graham’s crusades. To do so, he warned, would be “the same in principle as going back into the [American Baptist] Convention for a season.”2
In the summer of 1959, William Ashbrook (also writing for the Central Bible Quarterly) solemnly warned his readers about the “New Evangelicalism.” He thundered forth, “First, it is a movement born of compromise. Second, it is a movement nurtured on pride of intellect. Third, it is a movement growing on appeasement of evil. And finally, it is a movement doomed by the judgment of God’s holy Word.”3
This isn’t the language of diplomacy! The gauntlet had been thrown down, and Pickering’s article was one of the opening salvos fundamentalists launched to warn its constituents about this insidious threat.
One of the most significant theological movements of this generation is exercising an increasingly large influence in American church life. It has arisen out of the soil of American fundamentalism. The distinguished character and ability of its leaders and the wide-spread exposition of its principles are combining to assure it a ready hearing among many conservative ministers and laymen today.
By common usage this movement has come to be known as the “new evangelicalism.” Basically, it is an attempt to find a meeting place between liberalism (with its more modern expression, new-orthodoxy) and fundamentalism. It is unwilling to espouse all the tenets of liberalism, but is anxious to escape some of the reproach attached to fundamentalism.
Probably several factors have contributed to the rise of this new approach. Apparently one of the most basic of such factors is a long-cherished desire to exert more influence and receive more recognition from the contemporary secular and religious society. A hint of this is given in this statement by one of its advocates:
And we have not always been granted even that measure of civilized respect which our competitors seem willing to accord each other in the world of scholarship and learning. Too often our best reception has been an amused indulgence…” (Christianity Today, March 4, 1957).
Some evangelicals have for years chafed at the bit because their classification as fundamentalist precluded any serious consideration of their thought and writings by the masses of our country. The bitter pill of reproach, isolation, and derision because of their theological position has been a difficult one to swallow. They have longed for acceptance as bona fide religious leaders among the recognized religious groups of the day. This driving motive has compelled them to change their approach in order to better conform to the pattern of the day, and so seek to make themselves acceptable.
Coupled with this has been an unwillingness to continue in a constant, vigorous defense of the faith. New evangelicals express impatience and disdain with those who expose the sin and error of apostasy and long to forget the whole fundamentalist-modernist controversy and move on to something more “constructive.” They have grown weary in the battle, and have decided that the advice of the old frontiersman is wise, “If you can’t lick ‘em, jine ‘em.”
The Principles of The New Evangelicalism
The new evangelicalism is a very recent movement, an emerging movement, and hence it does not as yet present itself in any highly organized form nor have its principles been all thoroughly crystallized. However, it is not too difficult to discover their major premises by a perusal of various articles which are appearing in defense of their cause.
Friendliness to liberalism and neo-orthodoxy.
This new evangelicalism approaches the liberal bear with a bit of honey instead of a gun. It expresses the feeling that liberalism is on the wane and that conservatism is growing in many of the major denominations. So, Donald Grey Barnhouse, in a letter of apology to the Presbyterian Church for his uncooperative spirit in the past, states that, “there has been a change of circumstances and of theological emphasis within our denomination,” (Monday Morning, Dec. 20, 1954). He declares in another place that “the movement in the theological world today is definitely toward the conservative position,” (Eternity, Sept., 1957).
Feeling that theological liberals are increasingly “repentant” and are seeking Bible truth, the new evangelicals are advocating a rapprochement with them, and one editor has noted “a growing willingness of evangelical theologians to converse with liberal theologians.” This feeling has expressed itself in many ways — cooperative evangelism, acceptance of speaking engagements in liberal institutions, and in other ways. Specifically, this tenet of evangelicalism is gradually bringing its proponents into a closer relationship with the leaders of the ecumenical movement— the National and World Council of Churches.
Alva McClain, President of Grace Theological Seminary, has very aptly and forcibly put his finger upon the fallacy of this reasoning.
Does anyone really think that we might “profitably engage in an exchange of ideas” with blasphemers who suggest that our only Lord and Master was begotten in the womb of a fallen mother by a German mercenary and that the God of the Old Testament is a dirty bully? Basically, the problem here is ethical rather than theological. We must never for one instant forget that they are deadly enemies with whom there can be neither truce nor compromise, (King’s Business, January, 1957).
Disavowal of fundamentalism and hostility toward separation
The adoption of the title “evangelicalism” is in itself an expression of rebellion against fundamentalism. The statement has been made by one leading figure that “God has bypassed extreme fundamentalism.” A number of journals have produced articles severely castigating the fundamentalists for their “divisiveness,” “bitterness,” and a host of other evils. The temper of the new evangelicalism is definitely one of strong criticism of fundamentalism as a movement.
This is accompanied by a hostility to separatists, those who hold that severance from denominational apostasy is the only Scriptural course to follow. Harold Ockenga, first president of Fuller Seminary, stated at the inception of that seminary that it intended to train young men to go back into the established denominations and that it was not a separatist institution. Donald Grey Barnhouse, for the past few years, has severely reprimanded anyone who separated from an ecclesiastical organization on doctrinal grounds.
Theological elasticity
New evangelicals view fundamentalism as impossibly rigid in its theological expression. In an article setting forth some of their major beliefs it was suggested that the “whole subject of biblical inspiration needs reinvestigation,” (Christian Life, March, 1956) … In fact, they resist the use of the phrase, “verbal inspiration,” because they feel that it antagonizes liberal theologians.
This contemporary brand of evangelicalism is very broad in doctrinal inclusivism. It opposes the preciseness of dispensationalism and registers an impartiality which borders on indifference when faced with the great prophetic questions. It is cordial to Pentecostal and holiness theology, “advocating great latitude on the doctrine of the Holy Spirit. In short, it tries to embrace as wide a constituency as possible by removing as many theological obstacles as it can. This results of course in an undefined evangelicalism which bypasses many important doctrines.
Emphasis on social problems
One of the leaders of the new evangelicalism was requested by reporters to define its nature. He replied that the new evangelicalism “differs from fundamentalism in its willingness to handle the social problems which the fundamentalists evaded,” (Associated Press, Dec. 8, 1957). Vernon Grounds declares, “We must … make evangelicalism more relevant to the political and sociological realities of our times,” (Christian Life, March, 1956).
The problem the evangelicals face at this point is the rather clear fact that nowhere in Scripture is the church commissioned to agitate for better social conditions or to attempt to solve current social problems. While it is the duty of every believer to conduct himself as a good citizen and vote for whatever measures seem right, it is not the responsibility of the church of Christ to remedy all the social evils of its day. Paul never organized a “Society for the Abolition of Slavery.” He simply admonished slaves to be good slaves for Christ’s sake.
The New Testament does not reveal any divine plan for a church-sponsored social program. History teaches that preoccupation with this eventually leads to the ruin of the church.
A positivism without negativism
New evangelicals wish to avoid as much controversy as possible. The leading editorial spokesman for the position seeks a ministry which is “positive and constructive rather than negative and destructive,” (Christianity Today, March 4, 1957). The clear implication is that negativism is not constructive.
For this reason the new evangelicalism does not clearly and consistently expose the machinations and error of religious apostasy. It feels that to engage in such ministry would be to alienate the liberals and render their hopes of winning them void. To bolster their program of positivism evangelicals have branded fundamentalists as too “negative” and “reactionary.” Doctrinal controversy has been described as unfortunate and divisive.
However, John F. Walvoord answers this charge. “Fundamentalists have inevitably been controversialists, since historically they have fought the tide of liberal theology. Those who dislike controversy naturally turn away from fundamentalism,” (Eternity, June, 1957, p. 35).
An obedient church must contend with error as well as propagate truth.
The Impact of The New Evangelicalism
Compromising theologies are not new in the Christian church … The two extremes of liberalism and fundamentalism are bound eventually to bring forth a mediating effort such as the new evangelicalism. Very rapidly the new evangelicalism is cohering into a definite theological movement. It already can lay claim to its own leaders, its schools, and its magazines. It has become a force which cannot be ignored in Protestantism today.
For any honest observer it is obvious that the new evangelicalism is dividing the conservative camp. Many conservatives are being swayed by the large-scale scholarly and popular presentation of the new evangelicalism. Possibly the single greatest asset to their cause is the ecumenical evangelistic technique which in metropolitan centers of the world is uniting liberals and fundamentalists and thereby subtly gaining the objective of evangelicalism — a synthesis.
On the other hand, many fundamentalists of various denominational allegiances are standing fast against the inroads of this evangelicalism and not without great opposition.
The effect of this entire movement will have to be decision. Decision on the part of all those who have in the past been identified with what is known as the fundamentalist movement. The interdenominational schools of our country are facing a decision. Will they stand for fundamentalism or will they abdicate to the new evangelicalism? For most of them it is not an easy decision for their interdenominational character relates them to leaders on both sides of the issue.
The same decision will face interdenominational missionary agencies. Many of them are reluctant to take sides in any doctrinal or ecclesiastical controversy for fear of alienating some of their supporters. However, the very nature of the new evangelicalism will demand a decision.
The new evangelicalism, while propagated by sincere and able men, is not worthy of the support of Christians. It lacks moral courage in the face of the great conflict with apostasy. It lacks doctrinal clarity in important areas of theology. It makes unwarranted concessions to the enemies of the cross of Christ. Christians everywhere should resist it steadfastly in the faith.
Notes
1 Ernest Pickering, “The Present Status of the New Evangelicalism,” Central Bible Quarterly, CENQ 02:1 (Spring 1959).
2 Robert T. Ketchum, “Special Information Bulletin #5,” GARBC, (n.d.), 4.
3 William Ashbrook, “The New Evangelism - The New Neutralism,” in Central Bible Quarterly, CENQ 02:2 (Summer 1959), 31.
Tyler Robbins 2016 v2
Tyler Robbins is a bi-vocational pastor at Sleater Kinney Road Baptist Church, in Olympia WA. He also works in State government. He blogs as the Eccentric Fundamentalist.
Thanks for sharing Tyler. Talk about stirring the pot! I believe that many of his criticisms would not stick to conservative evangelicalism today but that the more seeker-sensitive and charismatic factions of evangelicalism probably fit much of this bill.
I would have to disagree strongly with his view on social matters. As Salt and Light, we have a duty to press for social reform that seeks to honor the image of God displayed in humanity. The problem comes when we confuse these efforts with gospel work, which they are not. And the greater part of our energies should be directed to gospel work. But that does not mean that pushing for social change is not a responsibility of the church.
I’ve also wondered about the charge that evangelicals were obsessed with “academic recognition.” While this is likely the case with some, I wonder if the underlying motivation for more academic prowess within “new evangelicalism” was for the advance of the gospel. To be able to dialogue with them for the sake of calling out the problems with their views. Not that I am advocating that such an approach is wise or prudent, but, I think it is unfair to paint them all as pride-hungry academics.
I think looking back on this illustrates how diverse “evangelicalism” has become. While the pendulum certainly swung towards liberalism in the advent of “new evangelicalism,” I think it is safe to say that the pendulum has swung back the other way with the conservative and reformed resurgence in the modern evangelical church. But it is always fascinating to learn where we were so that we can work to protect swinging that way again!
Phil Golden
Quite a bit of “assuming motives” on the part of Pickering here. For example, the old saw that neo-evangelicals simply wanted to be respected by liberals—perhaps some did, but if we take a look at the state of fundamental “educational” institutions at the time, exactly what choice did neo-evangelicals have? If they wanted to do real academic work, they weren’t going to be able to do it in fundamental institutions at that time. Pickering’s own theological degrees were from Dallas, after all, just as Clearwaters’ were from Kalamazoo College and the University of Chicago. They knew from experience that evangelicals couldn’t do academic work in the fundamental orbit.
And the comment on “Paul didn’t start a society to end slavery”—my goodness, we fundamentalists have been trying to get past statements like that ever since, haven’t we? Reality here is that our movement did indeed show a huge blind spot when confronted by slavery and Jim Crow, and statements like that are not only an embarrassment, but also a great opportunity to think through “where did Ernie Pickering go wrong with this statement, Biblically speaking?”. The Bible does have cultural implications that we ought to think through; some degree of “social” is inherent in the Gospel.
Aspiring to be a stick in the mud.
It was stuff like this that actually drove me AWAY from fundamentalism.
It was stuff like this that actually drove me AWAY from fundamentalism.
Could you clarify what specifically the “this” is that drove you away from fundamentalism?
John B. Lee
There can be negativism without positivism.
"Some things are of that nature as to make one's fancy chuckle, while his heart doth ache." John Bunyan
Are you positive about that?
Tyler is a pastor in Olympia, WA and works in State government.
I think Pickering was right (for 1959)
We do not live in a Billy Graham environment today
A very strong Conservative-Evangelical world has emerged (or converged HT FBFI :) ).
Half of (generalizing) the C.E.’s are former fundamentalists who were sick of the Fundamentalist excesses (which are):
- Legalism
- Anti-calvinism
- KJVOnlyism
As Jim wrote, the context seems to be a bit different today. You often see in these articles from the late 1950s an accusation that new evangelicals are flirting with modernism. Neo-orthodoxy was a big concern. For example, the Central Bible Quarterly’s early editions have several articles warning people against neo-orthodoxy.
Today, evangelicalism has fractured into several million pieces, and the “new evangelicals” were essentially holding the same ground the conservative evangelicals hold today. Do ya’ll see a danger, a “slippery slope” in men like Mohler, MacArthur, Dever, Carson, Kaiser (et al) that will lead Christians into modern “modernism?” In other words, are Pickering’s warnings directly applicable to the contemporary context?
To quote Ashbrook, can we say that (for example) Carson’s commentaries, DeYoung’s books or MacArthur’s sermons and writings are indicitive of (1) a movement born of compromise, (2) a movement nurtured on pride of intellect, (3) a movement growing on the appeasement of evil, and (4) a movement doomed by the judgment of God’s holy Word?
According to the FBFI’s unfortunate “Convergent” issue of Frontline, fundamentalists should be wary of the conservative evangelical world.
- Are Pickering’s warnings still directly applicable?
- If they are, to whom are they applicable? Who is “the enemy?”
Tyler is a pastor in Olympia, WA and works in State government.
[TylerR] Who is “the enemy?”
An element of Fundamentalism lost effectiveness when “contend[ing] for the faith” (Jude) became just being cantankerous
I don’t think any one of the 4 dangers Ashbrook mentions can rightly be levied at the individuals you mention, Tyler. But that doesn’t mean that there are not some things we need to be wary of with these individuals.
I think there is a growing concern over Macarthur’s connection with James White (a guy I immensely respect and appreciate but who has made some questionable decisions as of late).
It always puzzled me that Mohler signed the Manhattan Declaration. (He tried to explain his reasons here but I find them to be not very compelling, especially since the Declaration was declared a document from Christians and there were those in that group who, if we believe orthodox Christian doctrine, are not Christians)
Carson’s (and Keller’s) views on Origins are troubling for me (albeit I am no where close to anathematizing them for those views) and may be an indication of compromise for the sake of academic respectability.
Beyond these, the desire to entertain in worship has almost wholesale support in broader conservative evangelicalism. (I was a little weirded out at TGC this year when you knew the session was about to begin because the fog machines were turned on).
So do I think Ashbrook’s critique applies today. No. Are there still concerning things within conservative evangelicalism? Yes.
Phil Golden
No question, per Phil’s comment, that there are many concerns with the neo-evangelical (and now generally “evangelical”) movement, theologically speaking, from the youth pastor vaping at TGC, to origins, to positions on the inerrancy of Scripture, to Graham’s willingness to partner with apostates in his crusades.
The trouble I have with Pickering’s rhetoric mostly transcends the time frame; it’s that Pickering is assuming motivations in a fairly perjorative way when he knew from personal experience that there really wasn’t much of a place for academic level work in fundamentalism. And as DL and Jim have noted, this crosses the line between “contending for the faith” and “just being cantankerous”, and it explains a lot of why there’s a fairly significant population of people who have “kissed fundamentalism good bye” in favor of being CE/Convergent.
Aspiring to be a stick in the mud.
I don’t believe that most of the Conservative Evangelicals are the same as the New-Evangelicals. I did listen to a podcast yesterday with a guy who writes on the New Perspective and he said many or most guys in academia calling themselves evangelical have adopted much of it.
Historic fundamentalism was known for waging war against modernism and for raising the standard for Biblical truth. From the late 50’s on it waged war against neo-evangelicalism and particularly against its willingness to affiliate with modernism in evangelism. Unless I missed something examples of Bible believers uniting with modernists in evangelistic efforts are rare today. Nothing unites a group like a common enemy and with the diminishing of NE a new enemy was needed. Pseudo-fundamentalists created enemies by declaring the enemy to be Calvinists, non-KJV, and/or CCM users. Those with whom I identify decided that the CE’s/convergents (whatever they are-still waiting for a definition) were the rebirth of NE. Meanwhile the new generation and some of the older ones saw clearly that the fundamentalists were standing against certain things but weren’t hearing a clarion call as to what they were standing for.
"Some things are of that nature as to make one's fancy chuckle, while his heart doth ache." John Bunyan
Phil:
You bring up some issues that aren’t necessarily indicative of “conservative evangelicals” as a group. In other words, I’m not certain whether we can point to “evangelicals” as if they’re a coherent group which engages in questionable practices. Pickering was arguing against what he perceived to be a monolith. Your issues (and others that could be brought up) are more about disagreements about what individual leaders have done from time to time. Is that an “evangelical problem,” or is it just a disagreement with another Christian?
I hope I’m making tha distinction clear. Pickering argued against a coherent movement of conservative evangelicals who flirted with modernism. Today, I doubt this monolith exists, and even if it did, I don’t see the “movement” flirting with modernism. Instead, I see genuine disagreements with some Christian leaders over past decisions they’ve made. But, that isn’t necessarily the same as saying “the movement sucks.”
My own opinion on your points:
- James White is good to go. I watched both his dialogues with Qadhi when they happened. No problem. This is an issue manufactured by Brannon Howse and others for their own reasons. I watched the dialogues, and I;m not concerned. I also follow Qadhi on Twitter.
- Mohler was wrong. Not sure what he was thinking.
- Carson and Keller on origins. Bad stuff. Matt Recker did a series about his concerns about Keller in Proclaim and Defend a few years back.
- Fog machines. Get a life, people! How ridiculous. Catering to younger people.
Tyler is a pastor in Olympia, WA and works in State government.
I think the situation within conservative evangelical circles is more serious than some realize. Most in here would call D.A. Carson a conservative evangelical. And so he is, and continues to defend inerrancy. But would any fundamentalist want to send a student to Trinity for anything other than an upper-level degree (PhD/DMin - because upper-level degree programs are lacking in Fundamentalism)? Vanhoozer doesn’t really believe in inerrancy anymore. The nature of biblical studies and historicity has been completely turned on its head by Enns/Sparks. Walton (at Wheaton) is knocking on the door of liberalism and will likely do more than any others in pulling people away from inerrancy, without even realizing the intellectual end of his positions (the criticism of a lack of theological intellectual dishonesty does not come from me, but from Enns critiquing Walton). Intellectually, the evangelical left is winning (one only needs to read the Zondervan multiple-views series on the Historicity of the Early Chapters of Genesis, or Inerrancy).
Concerning Carson/Keller on origins - the problem is not a textual one, but epistemological. As soon as we have to hold a certain interpretation (or reject a certain interpretation) because “science” we have lost Scripture as authority.
Every generation will refight the battle for inerrancy and authority. I have a feeling, that apart from the SBC and fundamentalism, the mainstream of evangelicalism, and much of what is currently called “conservative evangelicalism” will lose the authority of Scripture, especially in relation to historicity within a generation.
Tyler,
I agree that there is no “coherent group” of conservative evangelicals. I simply responded to some of the concerns I have with the individuals you listed. (In full disclosure, I am a big fan of MacArthur- have been to the Shepherd’s Conference and am considering going next year) and James White (He is one of the best biblical apologists out there today).
In particular regarding White, I do find the strategy of going to mosques to debate Islam a problematic practice for a number of reasons. I do not think it is wise or prudent to do so, for various reasons, which is not the point of this thread. Please let me be clear, however, that Howse is making stuff up and exaggerating things in this whole issue and I am in NO WAY siding with him. My concern is more with the overall strategy and White’s affiliation with Jeff Durbin. And again, Durbin has done some really really good stuff, but it seems that he is beginning to embrace the whole “hipster” pastor persona as he now has a Christian late night program that runs on youtube. Maybe I am not seeing my own blindspots here and this is a legitimate way to engage the culture with the gospel, but, he (Durbin) seems to have many of the marks that even conservative evangelicals are decrying.
Regarding Fog Machines… I;m not sure if you are agreeing or disagreeing with me. No there is nothing wrong with a fog machine, per se. But their use to produce a quality concert atmosphere is a bit of a problem. Along with the very palpable sense of celebrity that went along with TGC. (Which is not necessarily the organizers fault but the attenders)
Again, I agree there is no monolithic conservative evangelical movement, but I also think there is something to be said about the “grass is not necessarily greener on the other side” argument I have heard made from Fundamentalists. I took those individuals you mentioned as they represent the very best of conservative evangelicalism, and there are, I think, legitimate issues and inconsistences with their approaches that should be pointed out. As there are also MANY legitimate issues and inconsistences with Fundamentalism, even the best parts!
I think what concerns me with other fellow “convergents” is the danger of not critiquing the movement that we are running to as we run from fundamentalism and turn our guns on them as well. Among those who move within and lead the conservative evangelical movement in America (however you define it), there are legitimate issues that we should be discerning about and give a careful ear to the critiques of fundamentalists who may just have a point.
EDIT: I forgot to mention that I agree with Tyler that the problems listed with conservative evangelical leaders is not necessarily an evangelical problem but a disagreement with another brother. That being said, there are patterns of similar problems within evangelicalism. Just as there are patterns of problems in fundamentalism. They both have problems. Its just that they are different problems.
Phil Golden
Philip:
I’ve watched Durbin’s new show, and don’t find it particularly interesting. I think he’s trying too hard. On the iother hand, I’ve seen some of his stuff from his abortion ministry, and he is doing some good work there. I also listened to a good sermon of his to teens recently, and it was excellent.
Fog machines - I think they’re silly!
I think the grass isn’t necessarily greener on the other side. I think we ought to show a healthy amount of discernment whenever we look at anybody’s material; there is probably some good stuff, and other stuff we can safely shove to the side. Regardless, we can probably learn from anybody. I’ll listen to MacArthur exegete a passage, but I’ll take a pass on his views on church leadership!
It often doesn’t do anybody any good to over-generalize, especially with religious sub-cultures. There are too many different kinds of fundamentalists (see the various taxonomy charts floating around on SI, somewhere) to do that. The situation is even more confusing with evangelicals.
One important distinction is that I think Pickering was arguing against a very tight, coherent, and identificable stripe of evangelicals. I don’t think you can make a direct parallel today, point to a particular group, and say “watch out for them! They’re just like new evangelicals from the 1950s.” This is why I find the term “new evangelicals” anacronistic and useless in today’s context.
My takeaway:
- Fundamentalism has some systemic issues, which are not going away anytime soon. Carnell, despite his own problems, put his finger on some of them. Fundamentalists today should look past their own feelings against Carnell and seek to not be the kind of people Carnell wrote against. The movement still features some problams he pointed out. Unless, that is, you feel nothing Carnell said has anything to do with our context today. Ironically, that attitude would prove Carnell correct … :)
- Conservative evangelicals have some systemic issues, some of which Pickering mentioned here. Fundamentalists should avoid broad-brushing and labeling groups in an irresponsible fashion. Instead, we should consider some of the excesses of conservative evangelicals (Philip has pointed out some of them), and seek to avoid them in our own contexts. I’ll have more to write about this later.
Tyler is a pastor in Olympia, WA and works in State government.
Jumped out at me:
And we have not always been granted even that measure of civilized respect which our competitors seem willing to accord each other in the world of scholarship and learning. Too often our best reception has been an amused indulgence…” (Christianity Today, March 4, 1957).
I don’t know who the author is, but if this quote is correct (and I have no reason to doubt it), then my first question to the author is - “why are you even in ministry or academia?”
I don’t expect affirmation from academics because I know they don’t believe the truth that I do and teach. I will talk with and minister to them if they tolerate it, but trying to get a book published by Harvard University Press (for example) is going to entail sacrifices and compromises that I am not willing to make and neither should any seriously committed Christian.
We aren’t of this world and shouldn’t expect it’s praise, and Jesus makes that abundantly clear. Is that really hard to understand?
"Our task today is to tell people — who no longer know what sin is...no longer see themselves as sinners, and no longer have room for these categories — that Christ died for sins of which they do not think they’re guilty." - David Wells
I think Pickering was correct about a yearning from some evangelicals for “status” and a seat at the scholarly table. Marsden’s book about Fuller Seminary shows this. There is an account of one faculty member (Ladd, I think - or Carnell?) shouting for joy when he had a book published by an academic publisher, then being crushed and sinking into terrible depression after reading a poor review of it in some academic journal.
Tyler is a pastor in Olympia, WA and works in State government.
It was Ladd. The following book tells the story:
https://www.amazon.com/Place-Table-Rehabilitation-Evangelical-Scholarsh…
Help me out here if I am incorrect but it seems to me that Fundamentalists focus upon:
- Ecclesiology – The study of the church
- Eschatology – The study of the end times
- Separation - degrees of, issues to separate over (eg music, translations, personalities and schools)
That’s what some fundamentalists major on. I think that is a terrible mistake. That isn’t what fundamentalists have historically been about.
Tyler is a pastor in Olympia, WA and works in State government.
The impression I have of the comments is that most of you have no real appreciation for the time in which Dr. Pickering was writing or the massive betrayal of the gospel that was and is New Evangelicalism. I’ve heard Mohler discuss these matters and even he speaks as if the new evangelicals went too far. (He does betray some latent new evangelical tendencies, however.)
The current situation is more complex, as evangelicalism has fragmented into many divergent tracks. The conservative evangelicals are the best of the lot, but the “conservative” in the name refers to their attempt to conserve orthodox theology and new evangelical methodology.
I think you need to read history more carefully, rather than simply bring up your favorite whipping boys.
Maranatha!
Don Johnson
Jer 33.3
Concerning something Ron Bean wrote in “The Need of an Enemy” -
For information purposes, the Billy Graham Evangelistic Association is having a 3 day event in early October in Ft. Wayne, IN with Will Graham as the main speaker. I’ve talked to one of the organizers for this event, and he told me that all Protestant churches are invited to participate and send workers for the event. When I asked if this would include churches that believe baptism is essential to salvation, he was vague. When I asked him if people who make decisions would be sent to “mainline” Protestant churches for “followup”, he was vague. When I asked about Catholic churches, he said they were not specifically invited but would accept Catholic workers at the event. Seems to be basically the same procedure Billy Graham used. What has changed?
Wally Morris
Huntington, IN
Excerpt:
”Conservative evangelicals are different from Fundamentalists, but they are not new evangelicals. New evangelicals were committed to a policy of re-infiltrating ecclesiastical organizations that had been captured by apostates. They wanted to live in peaceful coexistence with apostasy. They were willing to recognize certain apostates as fellow-Christians and to cooperate with them in the Lord’s work. These are attitudes that conservative evangelicals explicitly reject. To apply this label to a conservative evangelical is completely unwarranted.”
http://www.centralseminary.edu/resources/nick-of-time/279-lets-get-clear-on-this
Bauder, as is usual with him, hits it right on the head. Today’s Conservative Evangelicals are not the past generation’s New Evangelicals. To answer Don’s charge about “tearing down statutes,” I don’t think anyone here is necessarily faulting Pickering for what he said (the bit about social justice is concerning, but, makes sense understanding his cultural context- it doesn’t justify what he said, it just explains it) in the context of what he was combating. The bigger issue is that some recent Fundamentalists have tried to paint conservative evangelicals with the same brush that Pickering uses. And as Bauder rightly points out, they are not the same.
I have two follow ups then for discussion. First, in the era of New Evangelicalism’s rise, were there any who stood apart from both Fundamentalism and New Evangelicalism- in other words, are there any historical figures from that time that would fit more in with the “Conservative Evangelical” tag of today. (Perhaps Carl Henry would be an example?)
Second, today, who best represents the equivalent of the New Evangelical of Pickering’s Era? Bill Hybles? Rick Warren? Who else? If, as Bauder argues, conservative evangelicals are not New Evangelicals, then how is their response different than the Fundamentalist response to today’s New Evangelicals. I think as we identify the players and their reaction to the various groups, we may find that the conservative evangelicals of today are principally standing in nearly the same spot that Pickering and Ashcroft stood, with perhaps a more toned down rhetoric.
All said, I think that today’s Conservative Evangelical and today’s moderate Fundamentalist (I say moderate to differentiate between the KJV-Only, anti-Calvinist and big “B” baptist factions in fundamentalism) have more in common than either group wishes to give to each other.
Phil Golden
Two big problems apparently will always be music and the ongoing willingness to cooperate with liberal denominations. As much as some want to say a focus on music is “cultural”, it is more than “cultural”, and as long as some continue to believe it is only “cultural”, then there will always be a divide. And as per my previous post, Many Evangelicals are still willing to cooperate with liberal denominations. I wonder: Are any who consider themselves “conservative Evangelicals” involved in the ongoing “celebrations” of BGEA? If so, then how are they different than previous Evangelicals?
Wally Morris
Huntington, IN
Friendliness to Liberalism and Neo-Orthodoxy
Yes. I think any friendliness to theological liberalism is a terrible and costly mistake, and these people should be avoided. As Bro. Golden has pointed out, one need only look at the tap-dancing from many on origins or the historicity of Adam and Eve to see this. We also see this when it comes to the composition of the Pentateuch. Also, when it comes to the New Testament, you can see the same thing. What to do, for example, with Mike Licona? What about the inerrancy question? In fact, people who tap-dance on inerrancy (depending on who their audience is) are actually displaying the typical “new evangelical” methodology.
Here is my question - how do you distinguish between (1) somebody who is ignorantly and blindly accepting an orthodox “packaged deal” he inherited in bible college from (2) somebody who is trying to actually understand the issues for himself? These are not the same people. I mean that we shouldn’t blindly label people as “compromisers” unless and until we read their writings, and take the time to understand what they’re saying.
There has always been a danger of second-hand, reactionary labeling - tarring somebody with a label with little to no evidence, or any personal familiarity with the “compromiser’s” actual writings.
For example, I recently read a book by a man who holds a PhD from Notre Dame, who claims to be a Protestant, grew up in a KJVO Baptist church, and teaches for a Catholic university. In his book, he advocates that faith, properly understood, includes the concept of allegiance. Now, if I had immediately tarred him with the label “liberal” before reading his book, I’d have been making a terrible mistake. As it turns out, I did read his book, and he isn’t a “liberal” at all. He is extraordinarily difficult to pin down, and his soteriology is an odd blend of Catholicism and New Testament Christianity. He’s complicated. But, he is thoroughly “conservative” in his theology, if you get what I mean.
Takeaway:
- It is bad to be friendly towards liberalism. Mark them and avoid them.
- Take time to understand what somebody actually believes before you attack. Bro. Recker did a good job of that with Keller, I believe. So did people like Pickering, too, I think. I believe Pickering understood what these men were playing at.
- Don’t be a reactionary knucklehead and label somebody because of where they went to school, or where they teach. Remember Robert Gagnon, late of Ptitsburg Theological Seminary and the PCUSA; he isn’t a liberal.
Here is a good example, from Ligonier, on how to oppose modern liberalism in churches. Yes, it’s true they’re Presbyterians. Yes, it’s true they’re not Baptist fundamentalists. Yes, it’s true they’re not dispensationalists. But, I content men like these would have stood in the forefront of the fundamentalist-modernist controversies 100 years ago.
Tyler is a pastor in Olympia, WA and works in State government.
Wally, please - can we not talk about music on this thread? Pickering didn’t mention it. It always derails things. No music; I beg of you … :)
Tyler is a pastor in Olympia, WA and works in State government.
So I’m not sure if Bauder has been reading this thread or not but his “In the Nick of Time” article that came out today makes some interesting observations about CE vs Fundamentalism. Curious of others thoughts about what he writes here:
Roger wants us to believe that today’s conservative evangelicals are nothing but fundamentalists who lack the nerve to wear the correct label. He is wrong. People like Al Mohler, Paige Patterson, Danny Akin, Mark Dever, Jerry Falwell, D. A. Carson, Kevin DeYoung, Carl Trueman, and Daniel Doriani (to select names almost at random) do not occupy the position of historic, separatist fundamentalism. Rather, they take exactly the stance of the older evangelical mainstream. In terms of position (and probably numbers), they are the true center of the evangelical spectrum. I write this as a separatist fundamentalist who disagrees with them at certain important points (and who is willing to engage them about those disagreements), and yet who wishes to see them represented fairly.
The whole article can be read here if its not reposted on the main SI page,
Phil Golden
I only mentioned music because some (many?) believe there’s not much difference between conservative Evangelicals and Fundamentalists. No intention of talking about music; Just illustrating that the differences are more than what is apparent.
Wally Morris
Huntington, IN
[Jay]Jumped out at me:
And we have not always been granted even that measure of civilized respect which our competitors seem willing to accord each other in the world of scholarship and learning. Too often our best reception has been an amused indulgence…” (Christianity Today, March 4, 1957).
I don’t know who the author is, but if this quote is correct (and I have no reason to doubt it), then my first question to the author is - “why are you even in ministry or academia?”
I don’t expect affirmation from academics because I know they don’t believe the truth that I do and teach. I will talk with and minister to them if they tolerate it, but trying to get a book published by Harvard University Press (for example) is going to entail sacrifices and compromises that I am not willing to make and neither should any seriously committed Christian.
We aren’t of this world and shouldn’t expect it’s praise, and Jesus makes that abundantly clear. Is that really hard to understand?
We don’t have to expect affirmation from academics, to be sure, and it’s not necessary. I would even go as far as to say that if a person’s reviews in academia are consistently good, that’s generally a sign of simply being on the right side of groupthink, not good work. For example, in Ed’s poll about marriage and divorce, one fact is that all that great, “peer reviewed” work that says that fundagelicals divorce at the same rate as everybody else is (a) using the wrong units (divorces/1000 adults instead of divorces/1000 marriages) and (b) does not differentiate between fundagelicals who do, and do not, actually attend church.
And that, in turn, demonstrates “our tribe’s” need to do academic level work whether or not we are approved in academia. And really, this is, again, where the rubber meets the road in Pickering’s critique; whatever we might say about “our view” of the neo-evangelical movement (Wally’s comment demonstrates that we get some of the same signs today in Graham rallies, no?) today, we must simultaneously ask why Pickering did not, despite having earned his own degrees from Dallas and not BJU, clue in to the fact that those endeavoring to do good academic work had no likely home in fundamentalism at the time. In other words, “our tribe” helped create the neo-evangelicals by shunning the tools of academic inquiry.
Aspiring to be a stick in the mud.
[WallyMorris]I only mentioned music because some (many?) believe there’s not much difference between conservative Evangelicals and Fundamentalists. No intention of talking about music; Just illustrating that the differences are more than what is apparent.
That’s quite a narrow view of who is actually a fundamentalist if you divide it by one’s approach to music. Both GARBC and IFCA association of churches identify themselves as fundamentalists and both have over 1000 churches in their association. In my two decades of connections with these churches throughout the Midwest and parts of the East, at least half of the churches of both these associations contain similar musical philosophy with conservative evangelicals. And the other half that is more traditional don’t see it as a big enough problem to separate from. Your stripe of fundamentalism doesn’t necessarily represent all of fundamentalism.
A few points of note:
Jay, the quote from 1957 CT would either have been from Henry or at least endorsed by Henry as the editor of CT at the time. I’m not near Central at the moment, so I can’t look at the archives for that copy.
Phil, To call Henry akin to the “conservative evangelicals” would be misunderstanding Henry and the New Evangelical movement. Henry’s “Uneasy Conscience” was one of the works that really started the NE movement, and the NE movement was carried forward on the popular level by Chrisitanity Today - Henry’s paper.
And remember the “when” of where we speak. Pickering would have been at Dallas during the final years of Chafer’s ministry, and during the height of S.Louis Johnson’s time. Alva McClain (McClain was a fundamentalist, as is John Whitcomb) at Grace was putting out good scholars. And if you know men who served during those days, some were unable to finish, or were not allowed to finish (PhDs) because of their conservative beliefs (C. Raymond Buck did all work including dissertation for a PhD from Central Seminary in Kansas, but was not accepted due to his stance against the “inclusive policy” - he later did a PhD in education). So with the exception of Dallas and Grace, and perhaps a few of the secular schools (or Jewish schools for OT studies), what academic choices did fundamentalists have? And remember that evangelicalism (in general) had to rebuild an educational infrastructure that was lost to liberalism. Thus, the rise of Westminster seminary, Wheaton college, Fuller, TEDS (gaining faculty from Fuller after the ‘62 split), and Biola on the evangelical side, and Central, followed by Calvary, Detroit, Faith, Maranatha, Northland on the fundamentalist side (Note: this only deals with the controversy in the North, and leaves out the Southern Baptists and southern fundamentalism).
For some music is a shibboleth, a convenient shortcut to discern “us” from “them”. With others it’s Bible versions, schools attended, levels of dispensational commitment, eschatological nuances, or clothing standards. Can we stick to essential issues?
"Some things are of that nature as to make one's fancy chuckle, while his heart doth ache." John Bunyan
[Philip Golden Jr.]Bauder, as is usual with him, hits it right on the head. Today’s Conservative Evangelicals are not the past generation’s New Evangelicals. To answer Don’s charge about “tearing down statutes,” I don’t think anyone here is necessarily faulting Pickering for what he said (the bit about social justice is concerning, but, makes sense understanding his cultural context- it doesn’t justify what he said, it just explains it) in the context of what he was combating. The bigger issue is that some recent Fundamentalists have tried to paint conservative evangelicals with the same brush that Pickering uses. And as Bauder rightly points out, they are not the same.
I think Kevin is a little too charitable here. Granted, the current crop of CEs are not exactly like NEs of the 50s, but who of any generation is exactly like their heirs of the next generation, or their ancestors a couple of generations back. Issues change, stuff happens, decisions are made. The key is, is the philosophy the same? I would say that the current CEs are almost identical to the NEs philosophically.
I have two follow ups then for discussion. First, in the era of New Evangelicalism’s rise, were there any who stood apart from both Fundamentalism and New Evangelicalism- in other words, are there any historical figures from that time that would fit more in with the “Conservative Evangelical” tag of today. (Perhaps Carl Henry would be an example?)
Henry was the New Evangelical. I’m astonished you would suggest him, of all men. He was a good man in a lot of ways, but was the architect of New Evangelicalism.
Second, today, who best represents the equivalent of the New Evangelical of Pickering’s Era? Bill Hybles? Rick Warren? Who else? If, as Bauder argues, conservative evangelicals are not New Evangelicals, then how is their response different than the Fundamentalist response to today’s New Evangelicals. I think as we identify the players and their reaction to the various groups, we may find that the conservative evangelicals of today are principally standing in nearly the same spot that Pickering and Ashcroft stood, with perhaps a more toned down rhetoric.
Al Mohler: Manhattan Declaration, common cause with Mormons, cooperation with Billy Graham Evangelistic Assoc, desire for influence more than separation
he is a good man in a lot of ways, but he is by philosophy a compromiser in order to have maximum “influence” as he defines it
All said, I think that today’s Conservative Evangelical and today’s moderate Fundamentalist (I say moderate to differentiate between the KJV-Only, anti-Calvinist and big “B” baptist factions in fundamentalism) have more in common than either group wishes to give to each other.
I think that view is extremely naive. (I almost said “hopelessly” but I haven’t given up hope.)
Maranatha!
Don Johnson
Jer 33.3
A quick word of clarification about Henry. Henry was definitely a HUGE part of the new-evangelical movement. That said, I don’t think he ever thought it would go where it went. I picked Henry as he was probably the most conservative of the whole classic New Evangelical group. Its interesting that you pick Mohler as the quintessential modern example of a “new evangelical,” as Mohler was heavily influenced by Henry.
That said, Mohler is not the same as the old line new evangelicals. For instance, he is not for cooperative evangelism. (yes, Southern and he participated in a BGEA crusade, but, if you look deeper into the details of that crusade, Mohler made a point to not cooperate with apostates and actually made his participation contingent on that fact). Also, again, while I think it was perhaps not prudent for Mohler to speak at BYU, he made it very clear that he stood apart from them regarding their understanding of salvation. It was more of a co-beligerant focus on some major cultural issues in American life and politics that brought him there. He was not recognizing them as brothers and sisters in Christ. As for his desire for influence rather than separation, that speaks to his heart motives, which I am not prepared to judge.
When I attended the Shepherds’ conference two years ago, Mohler was one of the Keynotes. He also did a breakout session on, of all topics, separation, titled, of all titles “The Dividing Line.” (I’m sure he was not taking that from Dr. Sidwell’s book but I found it ironic, to say the least!) You can listen to the session here.
All said, there are some major differences between Mohler and Ockenga, Billy Graham, Dan Fuller, and even Carl Henry.
Phil Golden
Not indicating that music is THE dividing line - You are reading that into my comments. Only saying that music is ONE of the issues and still unresolved. For those who consider music important, then music IS one of the essential issues. The “cultural” label is often an attempt to put music in the “non-essential” category. Again: I never intended a discussion about music. Others have made it that way. I am only using music as one of the unresolved and major differences that many Fundamentalists have with conservative Evangelicals, no matter how much Evangelicals have changed over the last 60 years.
Wally Morris
Huntington, IN
Let me also agree with Don and others that Carl Henry was one of the prime movers and shakers in the nascent ‘New Evangelical’ movement back in the ’50s. Marsden’s work Reforming Fundamentalism makes that very clear.
As for this:
I have two follow ups then for discussion. First, in the era of New Evangelicalism’s rise, were there any who stood apart from both Fundamentalism and New Evangelicalism- in other words, are there any historical figures from that time that would fit more in with the “Conservative Evangelical” tag of today. (Perhaps Carl Henry would be an example?)
Bauder refers to some of those people as ‘Indifferantists’ in an old series he did about this, but I’m not sure that everyone that stood aside from those battles was necessarily indifferent. I think that some (but I don’t have names to give) likely saw the battles escalating and decided they would go about their own business of making disciples and preaching and etc. I’d be curious to know if this is when the IFCA International took off, as I was never exposed to that association at NBBC or BJU and they seem to do that.
Second, today, who best represents the equivalent of the New Evangelical of Pickering’s Era? Bill Hybles? Rick Warren? Who else? If, as Bauder argues, conservative evangelicals are not New Evangelicals, then how is their response different than the Fundamentalist response to today’s New Evangelicals. I think as we identify the players and their reaction to the various groups, we may find that the conservative evangelicals of today are principally standing in nearly the same spot that Pickering and Ashcroft stood, with perhaps a more toned down rhetoric.
All said, I think that today’s Conservative Evangelical and today’s moderate Fundamentalist (I say moderate to differentiate between the KJV-Only, anti-Calvinist and big “B” baptist factions in fundamentalism) have more in common than either group wishes to give to each other.
I’m not sure, but when I think ‘Conservative Evangelical’ in our day, I think of men like MacArthur, Piper, Dever, Carson, almost anyone with ‘name recognition’ and involved with TGC, Mohler, and possibly Tim Keller. I think I’d probably have to include Hybels and Warren if pushed to do so, but they aren’t the names that come to mind immediately. I know some people would object to Mohler, but I’m also fairly sure that I saw something somewhere that Mohler regretted signing off on the Manhattan Declaration.
I also agree that there are issues in conservative evangelicalism that merit scrutiny, but I think that if/when they blow up, Fundamentalists of our stripe should be willing and able to help defend Biblical truths. TylerR’s mention of the New Perspective on Paul is an example of something to fight. Attempts to re-water down Biblical inerrancy are another.
But…if we can’t even define ourselves, how are we going to define conservative evangelicals in any meaningful way?
"Our task today is to tell people — who no longer know what sin is...no longer see themselves as sinners, and no longer have room for these categories — that Christ died for sins of which they do not think they’re guilty." - David Wells
[Philip Golden Jr.]A quick word of clarification about Henry. Henry was definitely a HUGE part of the new-evangelical movement. That said, I don’t think he ever thought it would go where it went. I picked Henry as he was probably the most conservative of the whole classic New Evangelical group. Its interesting that you pick Mohler as the quintessential modern example of a “new evangelical,” as Mohler was heavily influenced by Henry.
That said, Mohler is not the same as the old line new evangelicals. For instance, he is not for cooperative evangelism. (yes, Southern and he participated in a BGEA crusade, but, if you look deeper into the details of that crusade, Mohler made a point to not cooperate with apostates and actually made his participation contingent on that fact). Also, again, while I think it was perhaps not prudent for Mohler to speak at BYU, he made it very clear that he stood apart from them regarding their understanding of salvation. It was more of a co-beligerant focus on some major cultural issues in American life and politics that brought him there. He was not recognizing them as brothers and sisters in Christ. As for his desire for influence rather than separation, that speaks to his heart motives, which I am not prepared to judge.
Mohler has said something to the effect that the fundamentalists were basically right but by their separatism they lost the opportunity to be an influence. It was on a podcast some years ago, I should have kept it for reference, but didn’t.
My point isn’t that he is exactly like the New Evangelicals in direct application, but in basic philosophy. I think this is behind the “co-belligerency” stands. In most cases, its a bridge too far and is a distraction from the Great Commission. The social gospel infects men’s hearts over more issues than merely feeding the hungry. I think you are way too optimistic about his philosophy and that you (and many other posters here) don’t have a good grasp of the culture of the 50s and 60s. You all tend to look at the past from a very “presentist” perspective, hence the judgementalism towards the previous generation of fundamentalists.
Maranatha!
Don Johnson
Jer 33.3
My point isn’t that he is exactly like the New Evangelicals in direct application, but in basic philosophy. I think this is behind the “co-belligerency” stands. In most cases, its a bridge too far and is a distraction from the Great Commission. The social gospel infects men’s hearts over more issues than merely feeding the hungry. I think you are way too optimistic about his philosophy and that you (and many other posters here) don’t have a good grasp of the culture of the 50s and 60s. You all tend to look at the past from a very “presentist” perspective, hence the judgementalism towards the previous generation of fundamentalists.
Can you help me understand where you are coming from with Mohler and relating his philosophy to the social gospel?
Mohler has said something to the effect that the fundamentalists were basically right but by their separatism they lost the opportunity to be an influence. It was on a podcast some years ago, I should have kept it for reference, but didn’t.
My point isn’t that he is exactly like the New Evangelicals in direct application, but in basic philosophy. I think this is behind the “co-belligerency” stands. In most cases, its a bridge too far and is a distraction from the Great Commission. The social gospel infects men’s hearts over more issues than merely feeding the hungry. I think you are way too optimistic about his philosophy and that you (and many other posters here) don’t have a good grasp of the culture of the 50s and 60s. You all tend to look at the past from a very “presentist” perspective, hence the judgementalism towards the previous generation of fundamentalists.
Don, do you really think you have a good grasp of the culture of the 50s and 60s? I think you are about my age. So I don’t know if either of us have a good grasp except by what we read and hear what’s been passed down. I don’t think you are correct in claiming that Mohler is like the NE in basic philosophy. If he is it might be in areas where even the NE were right. I’m sure I would have some areas of disagreement with him as I would with most others. Whether those disagreements rise to the level of separation is the question I ask myself. I’m not sure they do. My experience with Fundamentalism is that much of it was “righter than thou” and those less right are compromisers. Fundamentalism in its zeal to defend Scripture, which zeal I admire, often goes beyond Scripture and separates where there is no scriptural warrant, IMO. As far as losing influence, well………………..
I think not. Let’s take a look at Pickering’s writing and see if it passes muster, theologically speaking.
The first section simply attacks the motives of the neo-evangelicals as being all about pride, wanting to be accepted, and the like. Sorry, that’s not a theological argument at all. The next section, “friendliness to liberalism”, is also not theological, but rather notes apologies for the excesses and tone of fundamentalists—OK, reading fundamental history, including some of the writings of Bob Jones Sr. and Jr., Frank Norris, I’m at a loss as to how it would be wrong to make this apology.
Now I concede that Pickering has something of an argument with his reference to “reinvestigating Biblical inerrancy”, but a single unattributed quote without naming the author/speaker or page number? Would any of our high school English teachers have accepted that in a sophomore level paper? My teachers would have applied red ink to such a stunt on my part.
Pickering does not leave us to wonder how much more theological heft he’s going to bring to the discussion, however, because he then goes to pick a fight with the infant civil rights movement by pointing out that Paul did not start an anti-slavery society. Let’s not forget that Dr. King had just gotten going four years before—there is no other reasonable inference to Pickering’s words here than that he is objecting to Christians working to end Jim Crow. Exactly how Pickering reconciled this with Galatians 3:28 and James 2:2-3 is beyond me. Keep in mind as well that in Rome, it was largely Christians who put the kibosh on emperor worship, gladiatorial games and ritual combats of the Circus, and cultic prostitution in the Roman empire, among other abuses. Yes, the ancient church did indeed do social Gospel—and grew immensely when they took in the pagan victims of a plague that killed those who did not get care.
Sorry, I don’t let him off the hook because things were “so different back then”, in great part because he was doing the same kinds of things that had gotten fundamentalists in the bad graces of their peers for the previous 50 years.
Now that doesn’t mean that I have no concerns with neo-evangelicals, or for that matter the weird things many factions of evangelicalism do. I’m a daily reader of the Babylon Bee for a reason, after all, and my concerns with the Graham association go way further than simply partnering with Catholics. But that doesn’t let “my tribe” off the hook.
Aspiring to be a stick in the mud.
[Steve Davis]Don, do you really think you have a good grasp of the culture of the 50s and 60s? I think you are about my age. So I don’t know if either of us have a good grasp except by what we read and hear what’s been passed down.
I am sure that our grasp isn’t complete, although these were the decades of our childhood. My point isn’t that my view of the period is perfect, but that we need to try to understand the times. The same is true for evaluating men like (ahem) Robert E. Lee, and others [of his ilk?] of bygone eras. You have to read history thoroughly and sympathetically. You can’t expect those of the past to be aware of sensibilities of the present. We are much too ready to criticize when if we had been active in that era, no doubt we would have looked at, valued, and done things in a much different way than we do today.
[Steve Davis]I don’t think you are correct in claiming that Mohler is like the NE in basic philosophy. If he is it might be in areas where even the NE were right. I’m sure I would have some areas of disagreement with him as I would with most others. Whether those disagreements rise to the level of separation is the question I ask myself. I’m not sure they do. My experience with Fundamentalism is that much of it was “righter than thou” and those less right are compromisers. Fundamentalism in its zeal to defend Scripture, which zeal I admire, often goes beyond Scripture and separates where there is no scriptural warrant, IMO. As far as losing influence, well………………..
First, our disagreement is not just a matter of opinion. Mohler has clearly and consistently been willing to bend in some areas for the sake of exercising or increasing his influence as he sees it. That is really incontroverible.
Our disagreement may be whether he is right or wrong to bend where he does. I mentioned several examples above. To me those are pretty serious compromises. If you differ, then, you differ. But the fact remains that he is willing to bend and has made it clear that influence is a major motivator in his position making.
Second, I don’t deny fundamentalism has lost its influence … if it ever had any. My point is that our goal is not to have influence, but to be witnesses. The increase of the kingdom doesn’t depend on my influence, but on my obedience in proclaiming the Word of God. I acknowledge that the evangelicals, when they proclaim the word of God (which they do) likewise have a part in the increase of the kingdom. I think their desires for influence, however, often undermine the gospel they proclaim.
Maranatha!
Don Johnson
Jer 33.3
……….
First, our disagreement is not just a matter of opinion. Mohler has clearly and consistently been willing to bend in some areas for the sake of exercising or increasing his influence as he sees it. That is really incontroverible.
Our disagreement may be whether he is right or wrong to bend where he does. I mentioned several examples above. To me those are pretty serious compromises. If you differ, then, you differ. But the fact remains that he is willing to bend and has made it clear that influence is a major motivator in his position making.
Second, I don’t deny fundamentalism has lost its influence … if it ever had any. My point is that our goal is not to have influence, but to be witnesses. The increase of the kingdom doesn’t depend on my influence, but on my obedience in proclaiming the Word of God. I acknowledge that the evangelicals, when they proclaim the word of God (which they do) likewise have a part in the increase of the kingdom. I think their desires for influence, however, often undermine the gospel they proclaim.
I’m not sure our disagreement is whether he ‘s right or wrong (in our eyes) but whether it rises to an issue of biblical separation. I would grant that he’s been wrong in some areas which I would not support. But does that make him a compromiser? Is he is disobedience to God’s Word? As one example take the Manhattan Declaration you mentioned. I have not signed it or been asked to sign it. I don’t know if I even read the whole thing. What I did read below I would agree with and could probably sign.
“Because the sanctity of human life, the dignity of marriage as a union of husband and wife, and the freedom of religion are foundational principles of justice and the common good, we affirm:
1. The profound, inherent, and equal dignity of every human life
2. Marriage as a union of one man and one woman
3. Religious liberty and the inherent freedom of human beings
As Orthodox, Catholic, and Evangelical Christians, we take seriously the Biblical admonition to respect and obey those in authority. Because we honor justice and the common good, we will fully and ungrudgingly render to Caesar what is Caesar’s. But under no circumstances will we render to Caesar what is God’s.”
Now of course I don’t believe that all these groups are made up of all true Christians. I don’t believe that about any group or any church. However, if someone thinks these issues merit a signature without having to agree with all the co-signers, that’s a decision that needs to be made. I don’t plan to sign it but I don’t write off as compromisers all who did. Again, do these disagreements merit separation? I think Fundamentalism often says “Yes” when there’s room for disagreement without separation.
The first section simply attacks the motives of the neo-evangelicals as being all about pride, wanting to be accepted, and the like.
The idea that NEs were concerned about academic reputation is really indisputable, but I don’t think it was about the inability to get a degree in fundamental circles, as you seem to suggest. Have you read Promise Unfulfilled by Dr. McCune? He talks about the academic/intellectual issue on pp. 37-45 and then returns to it later I believe. That would be worth your to understand a bit more about this issue.
Now I concede that Pickering has something of an argument with his reference to “reinvestigating Biblical inerrancy”, but a single unattributed quote without naming the author/speaker or page number? Would any of our high school English teachers have accepted that in a sophomore level paper? My teachers would have applied red ink to such a stunt on my part.
You seem to be confusing academic writing with popular writing. But the battles over inerrancy (both then and now) aren’t really hidden. They are fairly well known.
Pickering does not leave us to wonder how much more theological heft he’s going to bring to the discussion, however, because he then goes to pick a fight with the infant civil rights movement by pointing out that Paul did not start an anti-slavery society.
I wonder if you might bring some theological heft by pointing out where the NT prescribes some sort of social action by the church as the church? Again, isn’t Pickering’s point on this is rather indisputable, regardless of what might have bee behind his views or the views of others?
there is no other reasonable inference to Pickering’s words here than that he is objecting to Christians working to end Jim Crow.
Are you sure there is no other reasonable inference? I know quite a few today who agree with Pickering who think Jim Crow laws were wrong. It seems there are perhaps a few reasonable inferences that might be made.
Yes, the ancient church did indeed do social Gospel—and grew immensely when they took in the pagan victims of a plague that killed those who did not get care.
Can you cite the NT warrant for this “social gospel” (though I think you have misidentified it slightly here)? Can you tell us why Paul did not start an anti-slavery society and instead sent slaves back to their masters and told them to be good slaves?
In other words, I wonder if you might give a bit more substantive interaction with the issues you raise, particularly using the NT for a guide.
I was going to write a comment on the ditches the new evangelicals and fundamentalists (respectively) fell into after the 1950s. But, Kevin Bauder already wrote about that and did it better. Here it is:
On one side, the new evangelicalism tried to build bridges to non-conservative theologians and churchmen. Not surprisingly, people began to cross these bridges—almost always from evangelicalism into the broader ecumenical world. The problem is that they kept calling themselves evangelicals. The result was the so-called Evangelical Left, which began by denying inerrancy. It ended up denying a whole series of other doctrines that fundamentalists and moderate evangelicals would have considered essential to the gospel, to Christianity, and to Christian fellowship.
On the other side, some fundamentalists allowed themselves to become dominated by incidental concerns or idiosyncratic positions. Some gave themselves to uncontrolled suspicion or adopted a “warfare” ethic that allowed them to defend behavior that would normally have been censured as reprehensible. This variety of fundamentalism was often dominated by personality cults and strong-arm tactics.
Tyler is a pastor in Olympia, WA and works in State government.
TylerR - Yes, the ancient church did indeed do social Gospel—and grew immensely when they took in the pagan victims of a plague that killed those who did not get care.
Larry - Can you cite the NT warrant for this “social gospel” (though I think you have misidentified it slightly here)?
Um, wouldn’t Jesus’ command to love your neighbor as yourself (Matthew 22:39) apply?
"Our task today is to tell people — who no longer know what sin is...no longer see themselves as sinners, and no longer have room for these categories — that Christ died for sins of which they do not think they’re guilty." - David Wells
I didn’t write that, but I get your point!
Tyler is a pastor in Olympia, WA and works in State government.
Um, wouldn’t Jesus’ command to love your neighbor as yourself (Matthew 22:39) apply?
That’s not a command to the church as the church. it is a command to individuals.
Discussion