“Mohler argues that the civil law, which has been dechristianized by secularization, needs to be rechristianized”

I’m not sure Forster is being entirely fair to Mohler here, but it’s a very interesting debate… and one that has a potentially huge impact on what life is like for our children and grand children in the U.S., if we don’t see the return of Christ first.

At present, I lean toward this view: rechristianizing might well be the ideal, but we really can’t put that toothpaste back in the tube. Forster…

Is it possible to share our country by building moral consensus among people of different faiths—to have a common good without a common god?

These are hard questions. No one has easy answers. I’ll be first in line to admit I don’t.

But I’m more optimistic than Forster about what’s possible. For me, it’s rooted in the unity of truth. As Christians, we know that God’s view of human nature, society, and life on planet earth is “true” in that it fits reality. And what fits reality works better. And what fits reality tends to thrive where false ideologies fail. So can there be a consensus on “common good without a common god”? Well, there can be more or less of a consensus, and the current lack of consensus can be improved… a lot. Enough to improve the cultural and political situation in the West for a couple generations.

I don’t know why Forster pays so little attention to the difference between government power and the power of civil society/culture. In this piece, Forster ignores civil society entirely. I hope Mohler doesn’t do so in his book…. which is going on my reading list.

I’m pleased to see the book is available in audio. (orders via the link route some pocket change to SI)

[Joeb] Very very scary. I’d be honest if that ever happened to our Country which I doubt would I’d side with my Muslim Jewish Hindu True Christian or whatever American Brothers in an armed rebellion against that. That would be outright Tyranny and violate everything this Country stands for. It kind of gets down to what Patrick Henry said Give Me Liberty or Give me death.

While I am thankful for my freedoms in America, liberty / freedom without the restraint of morality (or virtue) leads to the disintegration of society and the collapse of the nation. This was true in ancient Greece, this was true for Rome, this was true for the various monarchies that controlled Europe throughout the middle ages, this was true during the French Revolution, etc., etc. The American founders knew this to be true as well. Thus, George Washington’s famous quote: “Religion and morality are the essential pillars of civil society.”

[Joeb]

I have had a number of Christian Righties say to my face that the Federal Government’s Highest Priority is Preaching The Gospel of Jesus Christ. I kid you not.

Well, I am not sure what the “Christian Right” is, but I can say I know no one that thinks what you say “a number” think. So, it seems the group you know is not as pervasive as you think.

joeb seems very passionate about his perspective. I’ve been in conservative Christian circles all my life, and have seldom, if ever, heard the positions he believes are prevalent among conservative Christians. Obviously there must be someone somewhere who espouses these views, but they’re mighty scarce in my orbit of many decades. These supposed extreme positions sound more like the scare tactics of those on the left then actual views of real people. For example, I have never in my life heard anyone say that the government should be responsible to propagate the gospel of Christ. Never.

Obviously there must be someone somewhere who espouses these views, but they’re mighty scarce in my orbit of many decades. These supposed extreme positions sound more like the scare tactics of those on the left then actual views of real people. For example, I have never in my life heard anyone say that the government should be responsible to propagate the gospel of Christ. Never.

There is a small and growing movement that advocates for a public religion within many of the First Things crowd.

https://newrepublic.com/article/154608/first-things-magazine-american-theocracy-religious-state

https://reason.com/2019/06/03/the-new-theocrats-are-neither-conservative-nor-christian/

https://www.newyorker.com/news/the-political-scene/david-french-sohrab-ahmari-and-the-battle-for-the-future-of-conservatism

I debated a conservative Christian businessman two months ago who told me if the founding fathers had been around to see the cultural slide towards progressive liberalism, they never would’ve embraced the first amendment. He felt that establishing more of a State Religion (Christianity) and curtailing Free speech (the press) was necessary to win the culture war so that America would prosper in the future.

I don’t plan to read Mohler’s book, but maybe I should. Mohler’s books remind me of the things you’ll find in Goodwill in 10 years. If you listen to The Briefing, do you really need to read his books? Do you NOT know what he’s going to say?

I’m asking an honest question. I was disappointed in his book about leadership. I’ve skimmed another two or so books of his, and found nothing I haven’t heard him say in his podcast. In short, I don’t know why I should buy his book. If he really is all for creating some kind of Christian nationalism, I’d be very, very surprised.

Thanks for the information. Obviously my experiences over the years do not include people of this persuasion. It’s sad to see people galloping off in every direction when things seem to be getting out of hand. Ignorance of Biblical truth on the Right is equally dangerous to absence of Biblical truth on the Left.

[Joeb] Agreed with what your saying T Howard mostly but the Founders also went out of their way to make sure there was never a STATE RELIGION OR RELIGIOUS TEST TO SERVE IN GOVERNMENT. Thomas Jefferson was a Theist not Baptist as some NUTS try to argue and the same familial DNA science solving these old murder and rape cases indicates Jefferson was a Rapist by all definitions.

I’m certainly not advocating for a state religion or a religious test to serve in government. From what I understand, though, some on the left have instituted a quasi-religious test and refuse to approve nominees who hold to biblical morality (i.e. religiously conservative Catholics or protestants) on the grounds that they are intolerant and bigoted.

Which leads me back to the founders of our nation. After reading several biographies of guys like Franklin and Jefferson, it’s no secret that some of our founders were immoral degenerates. However, judeo-christian ethics heavily influenced the moral context in which they lived. This was true up until the 1960s.

[Joeb] T Howard looks like you think as a Country we were moral and more Godly prior to the 1960s. I have heard that statement before. Did not half our Country and State and Local Govs practice apartheid right up into 1968 and lynching and killing of innocents and racism toward people of color was done openly and quite common I’d say again NO unless under Christian and Judeo Ethics those things were okay.

Joeb,

First, I’m not a fan of Trump. I didn’t vote for him in 2016, and I won’t vote for him in November.

Second, by writing – “Judeo-christian ethics heavily influenced the moral context in which they lived. This was true up until the 1960s”– I was not implying that our country was more moral or godly prior to the 1960s. However, before the 60s, our country for the most part shared a similar Judeo-Christian ethic/moral context. People understood the Judeo-Christian concepts of sin, God, morality, etc. The same cannot be said today. Our society, for the most part, has rejected most of the Judeo-Christian ethic / moral context of the past. There is some good to this — i.e. less cultural Christianity. But, there is less moral restraint in our society. It’s now not only okay but lauded when someone flouts biblical morality.

Similar to the commentary at the book of Judges, everyone is doing what is right in his own eyes.

Proverbs 29:18 is proving prophetic! “Where there is no prophetic vision the people cast off restraint, but blessed is he who keeps the law.”