FBI: Did Jack Schaap take teen across state lines for sex?
Did Hammond pastor take teen across state lines for sex?
The FBI has confirmed it is investigating whether the teenage girl who is reported to have had an affair with a former pastor of the First Baptist Church of Hammond is a minor. Robert Ramsey, FBI supervisory senior resident agent, said Tuesday the investigation will look into whether Jack Schaap transported the female church member across state lines for illegal sexual activity and whether she was below the federal age of consent, which is 18 years old.
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As the quantity of communication increases, so does its quality decline; and the most important sign of this is that it is no longer acceptable to say so.--RScruton
What was the exact date Jack Scrap was fired? Could it be the board placed him on ML until a certain decision was made?
No, because there was no medical reason for firing him. This whole thing came to light when someone found photos of him in a compromising situation with the girl. That’s been reported as fact. It’s not like (and this is a bad example) Bobby Petrino, who crashed his motorcycle and got medical attention that eventually unraveled his whole life of lies and adultery.
But let’s assume the worst, that the congregation was told this and it was not true. Does anyone actually believe they intended to sustain this or was this insrtful but considerate diplomacy for a very large congregation to allow the announcement to be made less fortuitously.
‘Diplomacy’ based on lies is not diplomacy, it’s sin. This is not ‘unfortunate’ or ‘less fortuitious’. It’s lying, and it’s sin. It reflects very, very poorly on a church when they appoint someone to go up on the church stage and lie to the congregation. Whoever told him to get on stage and lie is wrong, and whoever actually got on the stage to lie to the congregation is also wrong and should have had enough backbone to stand up and say “No, I will NOT comply with your request for me to lie.”. This is not complicated, Alex, and I do not understand this need to ‘spin’ the situation so that it’s acceptable to some. It’s sin. The fact that church leadership facilitated the messy management of this makes it worse.
It doesn’t matter if it’s done for good reasons. It’s sin, and it’s wrong, and the FBC Hammond would have been FAR better off to come out with the truth than lie and spin their way into a further mess.
"Our task today is to tell people — who no longer know what sin is...no longer see themselves as sinners, and no longer have room for these categories — that Christ died for sins of which they do not think they’re guilty." - David Wells
@ Bro. Roger- There is a difference between someone making a statement of fact and getting the the impression that someone holds a certain opinion. As you said- anyone who may have attempted to assign a Lolita label to victims was corrected here at SI (and what people were saying somewhere else is not relevant). Not to mention that it is inaccurate to try to ‘make a case’ about comments on previous threads without going back and comparing post-to-post by the same users.
This train of thought is unproductive anyway. It’s just a poke-in-the-ribs, and doesn’t address the issues at hand in any manner.
I agree that while the folks at FBCH may have had good intentions and in some ways were doing ‘the right thing’, there is no excuse for disingenuousness from church leadership. It is further proof, IMO, that when the church is tainted by a culture of deceit, it colors the actions of even ‘good’ people. “Evil communications corrupt good manners” -
From Tim Challies blog post The Companion of Fools- “we gravitate toward the people we want to resemble. A man who wants to be rich and powerful will find any excuse to hobnob with powerful men. He will live where they live, drive what they drive. And as he spends time with such people, he will develop their thoughts and will look at the world in the same way they do.”
The little foxes spoil the vine, a little leaven leavens the lump, and ‘acceptable sins’ are the gateway drug to every vile and wicked thing man commits.
What does it say about the leadership at FBCH that they wanted to hitch their wagon to Schaap? In my own very limited knowledge, I could see that Marriage: The Divine Intimacy was strike one, this object lesson was strike two AND three, and he should have been thrown out of the game a long time ago.
There are clear qualifications for church leadership, and it’s high time the gloves came off and those qualifications put into force. Otherwise, congregations around America and the world aren’t sheep, they are sitting ducks.
I heard this statement from one of the FBCH staff on the video and it brought back memories of other incidents. The mindset that exposure of the pastor’s sin (and I use the word pastor loosely) would destroy the ministry has caused boards to equivocate and cover up known sin. I’ve seen boards cover their leader’s sins for years in the interest of saving the church from scandal. Thankfully, it’s harder to do today.
"Some things are of that nature as to make one's fancy chuckle, while his heart doth ache." John Bunyan
My heart is breaking.
The name of my Lord has been dragged through the mud in the view of the unbelieving world. The testimony of the body of Christ has been tarnished, inviting ridicule from those outside the church who are looking for a reason to marginalize Christianity.
And here we are, debating who said what to whom in the announcement of this sin.
How many of us are praying for the Lord to comfort the hearts of the members of this church? How many are asking Him to use this to bring His servants closer to Him? How many of us are going to the Lord in fear and trembling, begging Him to keep us from falling into similar sin?
Don and Alex may have a point; see this unsubstantiated second hand account. If accurate, it seems the board made an attempt, if somewhat fumbling, to follow policy while responsibly addressing the situation.
OTOH, Brent has a huge point about congregational polity and the responsibility of leaders to inform the body that ought to moving in these matters. Of course, FBCH’s constitution is probably no paragon of congregational church goverment.
Making a judgment either way specifically regarding the med leave statement seems to me to be going beyond the full set of facts available.
This part of the story is such a minor point to the overall picture that I am astonished at the vehemence and the denunciation. You all sound like self-righteous Pharisees to me. The New Testament parallels abound.
The structure, polity, culture, and history of the church have made it extremely dysfunctional as a Baptist church for a long time. A MAJOR step forward has been made in dismissing Schaap. Yet you are freaking out because they apparently didn’t word a statement to your liking prior to the dismissal. Incredible.
It would be funny if it weren’t so pathetic.
Maranatha!
Don Johnson
Jer 33.3
Freaking out is as freaking out does.
[Don Johnson] This part of the story is such a minor point to the overall picture that I am astonished at the vehemence and the denunciation. You all sound like self-righteous Pharisees to me. The New Testament parallels abound.It would be funny if it weren’t so pathetic.
Don,
You and Alex sound the same way from this side of the computer. I’m glad they fired Schaap, but he has had trouble with the constituency from the beginning so I’m not shocked by it. If they acknowledge they were struggling with how to handle this while they were investigating and apologize, I would be fine. But if they lied they lied - from the pulpit - in a position of leadership. There’s no soft peddling this because they did something else really, really good.
Why is it that my voice always seems to be loudest when I am saying the dumbest things?
Here is how the situation might have been announced under the stated policy without making an affirmative misrepresentation:
“Regrettably, we must inform you that allegations of moral failure have been made against Pastor Schaap. Pastor Schaap disputes the evidence that has been presented and denies the allegations. However, under our established church policy, when allegations of this type are made against a staff member, we are to treat them as correct until we complete an investigation and determine that they are unfounded. Accordingly, Pastor Schaap has been placed on administrative leave, and other members of the ministerial staff will be handling his responsibilities while the investigation proceeds.”
No, one need not resort to “medical leave” for counseling to meet the stated policy. Thus, this does not help Don and Alex.
As the quantity of communication increases, so does its quality decline; and the most important sign of this is that it is no longer acceptable to say so.--RScruton
The attitude that they were OK to lie ‘because they were doing a good thing’ absolutely blows my mind.
"Our task today is to tell people — who no longer know what sin is...no longer see themselves as sinners, and no longer have room for these categories — that Christ died for sins of which they do not think they’re guilty." - David Wells
[Don Johnson] Is it a lie? I suppose you could call it that.
Incredible, incredible equivocation
I’m sympathetic to your point Brent, but, as someone who got thrust into a position of policy administration without much previous experience, I can testify that some mistakes of this type are due to shortsightedness and inexperience rather than plain bad motives. Best practice in handling these things is not what FBCH was likely to have much exposure to.
[Chip Van Emmerik][Don Johnson] This part of the story is such a minor point to the overall picture that I am astonished at the vehemence and the denunciation. You all sound like self-righteous Pharisees to me. The New Testament parallels abound.It would be funny if it weren’t so pathetic.
Don,
You and Alex sound the same way from this side of the computer. I’m glad they fired Schaap, but he has had trouble with the constituency from the beginning so I’m not shocked by it. If they acknowledge they were struggling with how to handle this while they were investigating and apologize, I would be fine. But if they lied they lied - from the pulpit - in a position of leadership. There’s no soft peddling this because they did something else really, really good.
Chip,
I believe you are failing to see the irony in all of the high priest ballyhooing. But first, you still have not convinced me it was a lie. That is, it is perfectly acceptable to place someone or permit someone to use medical leave who does so without a medical purpose if those responsible for such policies permit it. And in this case that would be the Board.
But let’s get to the irony. Here we have a posse of hang ‘em highs worrying about a “lie” from the pulpit of FBCH,. Not a lie about the Word of God but about the context of the Pastor’s leave status? We have the posse going crazy over this? Really? LOL I could not be laughing harder.
For decades Jack Hyles mixed orthodoxy with error, this is called heresy (John Piper comes to mind right now but let’s skip that) and apparently Jack Schaap embraced the proprietary heretical teachings of Jack Hyles. This, alone, is so far in excess of this petty instance of what I believe can be cited, at worse, as a bit of embellishment as a temporary solution to a later and full explanation of the Pastor’s absence and at best quite factual if indeed the Board did agree to have him on medical leave at that time which simply makes those chasing this absolutely tiny or fractional matter look like the very IFB pharisitical persons they, themselves, claim to reject or are by which they are offended. It could be no more ironic.
Take the errant “Meet the Holy Spirit” teaching of Hyles which, btw, went on to influence many in conservative Evangelical circles and does to this day just with other Philosopher-Kings articulating in their own, uniquely dangerous way (oh that guy’s name is popping up again…oops), led countless believers into confusion and no doubt, spiritually damaging circumstances. And that is but the tip of the iceberg of the error, both doctrinally and practically, which came from Jack Hyles through FBCH and Hyles-Anderson College to the rest of Christendom and particularly to Fundamentalists and Evangelicals.
So hey, you want to swim around in this tiny pool of inartful diplomacy, momentary embellishment for the benefit of time or even the legitimate categorization of medical leave and try to convince the world it is an ocean of an issue, well have at it. I am sure it is big enough to fit all of the crusading dozens into it.
In the mean time, I believe those who have an investment in Fundamentalism will be looking at the real issues and real remedies.
Discussion