"No need to wear the pagan uniform, and even worse to envy it."

Throwing more fuel on the fire is http://www.dougwils.com/index.asp?Action=Anchor&CategoryID=1&BlogID=6807] BLOG and MABLOG :

[BLOG and MABLOG] Now I am prepared to argue that bodily mutilation and tatting is a necessary manifestation of cultural unbelief (Lev. 19:27-28; 1 Kings 18:28; Gal. 5:12). Idols always bring the knives with them. God created man in His image, like a priceless Durer woodcut, and so the devil brings the marker pens to doodle with. But suppose for a moment that this is all wrong, and that hypothetically and postmillennially there could be a culture someday in which tatting up your thirteen year virgin with dragon pictures was a practice that God the Father thought was swell, and about time the Holy Spirit added, encouragingly. It still remains true that in our culture, in English, nothing says trailer trash like a halter top and a tat. And when you get a nose stud, you are a lot closer to Brittany and Paris Hilton than you were before, and farther away from all the fifty-year-old church ladies. Which, come to think of it, may have been the whole point.

h/t: Religious Affections

[Susan R]…I am simultaneously chuckling while being completely grossed out- polypropylene? Are you kidding?

polypropylene can take a lot of different forms. in this case, it’s a fabric with very good wicking properties and not a solid piece of plastic or a clear bag.

i had an odd thing happen the other week, though. i took a downhill turn on wet pavement too fast. i broke one pedal in half and landed on my hip pretty hard. i got up and realized i was pretty much ok. i looked at my hip, and my cycling shorts were still in one piece and i couldn’t see any blood. but when i got home, i discovered that somehow i had made a hole in my underwear without making a hole in my shorts!

Susan,

For those serving in the Navy there are a number of honorable maritime tattoos relating a sailor’s nautical career. For example there is one for crossing the equator, one for crossing the equator at the 180th meridian, and one for crossing it at the Prime Meridian. And among sailors they serve as informal but real vetting mechanisms.

[Greg Linscott]

Ok- so if we applied your reasoning, then, we assume that people with tattoos, dreads, and piercings only go to grocery and retails stores where the employees look like they do. They don’t vote for government officials who don’t have tatts, nor would they ever dream of accepting medical care from a doctor or nurse whose body was unpierced. They never take jobs where they are expected to remove piercings or wear clothing that hides the tattoos… and on we could go.

Ben, I think you are offering a cop out here. Are you really suggesting that tattooed people only are influenced by others who have tattoos (etc)?

When my wife and I were in college, I worked in management for Arby’s for several years to pay the bills. I often hired employees who had tattoos, dreadlocks, and piercings (not to mention one of my assistants who was part of the Goth subculture). I often had the opportunity to share Christ with them. Some of them even came to church with me at times. What made this possible was not adopting their look or whatever, but just treating them with respect and not disdain because of our surface differences.

People- even tattooed people- respond to love and good works much more than they do people adopting their look to try and “fit in” with them. And even if you think they don’t, that’s what God calls for us to distinguish ourselves by as followers of Christ.

Greg, I agree with your point completely, that people respond to love and good works; however, I don’t think that negates the fact that a person who is part of that “culture” can more effectively reach that culture. I carry this so far as to say that a church that intentionally focuses on and welcomes that culture will more effectively reach that culture. Obviously, we cannot compromise Scriptural truth and participate in sin in order to reach others, and I don’t think that piercings, tattoos and hair styles cross the line into sin, so that colors my opinion. If someone reaches a different conclusion, and believe that they are committing a sin by having a certain look or tattoos etc. then my argument is completely void. I think this is exactly the type of thing Paul was talking about when he said that he “had become all things to all people”.

I can see the point of those who say that these practices are related to rebellion, if we still lived 50 years ago. Today, there are very few people, at least on the West Coast who see tattoos as “rebellion”. They are really more of a fashion style than anything else. I know plenty of people who think they are stupid looking or for those who have them, regret getting them; but they aren’t viewed in the same light as they were in the past. I have laughed at plenty of tattoos i have seen and how ridiculous they will probably look in 30 years, but I don’t view them as sin or rebellion.

[Gabe Franklin] [ (How many teenagers go out and get a tattoo in honor of their parents?) I would love to get into a discussion concerning the application of Levitical laws in general, but I do not think this is the proper thread for that.

Actually, I can think of several young men and women that I know that have tattoos of just such things. Unfortunately, I have to do a memorial service tomorrow night for a 10 month old baby that died this week. His father has his name tattoed on his arm. There are a lot of tattoes that people get, that while they may just be unnecessary body marking to you or I, have significantly deep meaning for those who get them. For most of the Marines I know, having the Eagle, Globe and Anchor (USMC emblem) tattoed on their body is extremely meaningful for what it takes to be a Marine, same for the sailors as Alex pointed out earlier.

[Ben Howard]

[Gabe Franklin] [ (How many teenagers go out and get a tattoo in honor of their parents?) I would love to get into a discussion concerning the application of Levitical laws in general, but I do not think this is the proper thread for that.

Actually, I can think of several young men and women that I know that have tattoos of just such things. Unfortunately, I have to do a memorial service tomorrow night for a 10 month old baby that died this week. His father has his name tattoed on his arm. There are a lot of tattoes that people get, that while they may just be unnecessary body marking to you or I, have significantly deep meaning for those who get them. For most of the Marines I know, having the Eagle, Globe and Anchor (USMC emblem) tattoed on their body is extremely meaningful for what it takes to be a Marine, same for the sailors as Alex pointed out earlier.

My neighbor got a tattoo on his left bicep with the names of his wife and kids. To him, it’s a permanent sign of his love for them.

[Greg Long] My neighbor got a tattoo on his left bicep with the names of his wife and kids. To him, it’s a permanent sign of his love for them.

I wouldn’t outright condemn such, but love must be Biblically defined, not subjectively defined (“to him”). Love is action (Biblically speaking), not a symbol, or even the acquiring of a symbol (self-flagellation?). A ring on one’s finger is just that - it is the faithfulness to the meaning of the concept that is real. Whether one wears a ring or a tattoo doesn’t make one faithful or loving. The Bible commands us to love by selfless action, not by self-marking.

(I have even seen people do such as a form of reparation because they had not been loving. Like a guy in the Army getting a tattoo to make-up for his unfaithfulness. Kobe Bryant buying a massive ring for his wife, etc.)

Personally, even tattoos in the military never made sense to me. I understand comradeship in the military, having been on active duty for 4 years, but it should not be the driving force of one’s life purpose either. (By the way, the military as a whole is not a religious or Christian organization…) As an example, drinking (and getting drunk) was also an important part of being part of the group when I was in, but people still respected me though I didn’t drink. (I could also mention tobacco, drugs and frequenting prostitutes as part of sub-cultures of comradeship.) We are soldiers of the Lord first and foremost, and our loyalty (and identifying actions) should be to Him. If Christ owns my body, then I’m not sure that I have the right to mark it up as a claim of ownership on my part.

[Kevin Subra]

[Greg Long] My neighbor got a tattoo on his left bicep with the names of his wife and kids. To him, it’s a permanent sign of his love for them.

I wouldn’t outright condemn such, but love must be Biblically defined, not subjectively defined (“to him”). Love is action (Biblically speaking), not a symbol, or even the acquiring of a symbol (self-flagellation?). A ring on one’s finger is just that - it is the faithfulness to the meaning of the concept that is real. Whether one wears a ring or a tattoo doesn’t make one faithful or loving. The Bible commands us to love by selfless action, not by self-marking.

(I have even seen people do such as a form of reparation because they had not been loving. Like a guy in the Army getting a tattoo to make-up for his unfaithfulness. Kobe Bryant buying a massive ring for his wife, etc.)

Personally, even tattoos in the military never made sense to me. I understand comradeship in the military, having been on active duty for 4 years, but it should not be the driving force of one’s life purpose either. (By the way, the military as a whole is not a religious or Christian organization…) As an example, drinking (and getting drunk) was also an important part of being part of the group when I was in, but people still respected me though I didn’t drink. (I could also mention tobacco, drugs and frequenting prostitutes as part of sub-cultures of comradeship.) We are soldiers of the Lord first and foremost, and our loyalty (and identifying actions) should be to Him. If Christ owns my body, then I’m not sure that I have the right to mark it up as a claim of ownership on my part.

I understand what you’re saying, but all I was trying to do is underscore Ben’s point that getting a tattoo means a variety of things to the “world” (meaning unsaved people), more than simply “rebellion.”

The original post is the hypothetical of a Christian teenager wanting a tattoo. I suppose the examples of good intentioned tattoos would be the come-back from a teen when told no. But I don’t think that intentions have any thing to do with it. I don’t think it is just a cultural matter. I would say to my teens, “No, the Bible teaches against marking your body.”

As I have already posted, I believe the Leviticus verse should make us want to know why God specifically prohibited the Children of Israel from marking their bodies. Did He prohibit them because tattoos back then were pagan? Could some tattoo bearers have had memorials for departed loved ones stenciled on their bodies? What could be better than tattooing the ten commandments on their bodies, showing their devotion to God? I don’t know enough about the surrounding cultures’ tattoos (but would be willing to learn), but we all know that God allowed no markings.

But even more so, the New Testament tells us that the Christian’s body is the Holy Spirit’s temple. It’s not just our heart, our mind, our emotions, but our physical bodies are inhabited by God. So as Christians, our bodies were created by God, redeemed by God and inhabited by God (and someday gloriously changed by God). Charlie noted I had misapplied his idea of identity because he did not intend it to mean that we had to ask Jesus if we could change our appearance. But I disagree with him in that I think we should know what Christ wants us to do with our appearance because we are making decisions about the flesh and blood body He owns. When Christians attempt to use their bodies as message boards or places to hang art, they are defacing the body and, in essence, saying I have final say over what happens to this flesh. We don’t.

So why not tattoos, studs, scars, elongated necks, stretched out bottom lips or whatever else we can imagine to disfigure our bodies? Because it is not ours to use to glorify ourselves—it is to be used to glorify God.

Note this is what I think the Bible teaches—I don’t expect unsaved family and friends to necessarily follow. So while it makes for interesting reading, it hardly seems relevant that the unsaved have found a more respectful use of tattoos.

[John Benzing] The original post is the hypothetical of a Christian teenager wanting a tattoo. I suppose the examples of good intentioned tattoos would be the come-back from a teen when told no. But I don’t think that intentions have any thing to do with it. I don’t think it is just a cultural matter. I would say to my teens, “No, the Bible teaches against marking your body.”

As I have already posted, I believe the Leviticus verse should make us want to know why God specifically prohibited the Children of Israel from marking their bodies. Did He prohibit them because tattoos back then were pagan? Could some tattoo bearers have had memorials for departed loved ones stenciled on their bodies? What could be better than tattooing the ten commandments on their bodies, showing their devotion to God? I don’t know enough about the surrounding cultures’ tattoos (but would be willing to learn), but we all know that God allowed no markings.

John, do you allow yourself or members of your family to wear mixed-fiber clothing?

[John Benzing] But even more so, the New Testament tells us that the Christian’s body is the Holy Spirit’s temple. It’s not just our heart, our mind, our emotions, but our physical bodies are inhabited by God. So as Christians, our bodies were created by God, redeemed by God and inhabited by God (and someday gloriously changed by God). Charlie noted I had misapplied his idea of identity because he did not intend it to mean that we had to ask Jesus if we could change our appearance. But I disagree with him in that I think we should know what Christ wants us to do with our appearance because we are making decisions about the flesh and blood body He owns. When Christians attempt to use their bodies as message boards or places to hang art, they are defacing the body and, in essence, saying I have final say over what happens to this flesh. We don’t.

Would it be sinful, in light of this reasoning, for someone to wear a Christian t-shirt, using their clothing as “message board” or a “place to hang art”?

[John Benzing] So why not tattoos, studs, scars, elongated necks, stretched out bottom lips or whatever else we can imagine to disfigure our bodies? Because it is not ours to use to glorify ourselves—it is to be used to glorify God.

Do you think it is sinful for women to pierce their earlobes?

FWIW Bob Bixby comes down on the no tattoo side. See http://weblog.wordcentered.org/archives/2009/08/07/graffiti_on_the_temp…] here (it’s from the blogroll).

[Charlie]…Michael Jackson’s not-so-successful move from black to white illustrates the desire to have full control over determining one’s identity…

Just as an aside, Jackson’s skin color change was a result of a disease called vitiligo [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitiligo]; he also had lupus - both of these diseases affected skin color and caused his original dark skin to fade. It also explains the famous white glove and some of the dress decisions.

Jackson had a terrible, terrible childhood that was filled with abuse and maltreatment in addition to the physical and social problems [some of them brought on by himself] , so that bears keeping in mind. Most of the people that have talked about Jackson have been ignorant of what was really going on in his life, so I wanted to put this out there for those who remain unaware of at least the skin issue.

As for tattoos and piercings, I think this is similar to my position on alcohol - it’s not wise, and I don’t think that Christians should partake. Pre-salvation experiences, obviously, are a different matter. Our bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit, and I think it’s wrong to mark them in ways that are not natural, especially for selfish reasons. Women’s earrings, I think, are a different situation from tattoos and other piercings.

[Greg Linscott] To recognize fertility as a gift from God is one thing. To deify fertility as a god or goddess is another.

Where did THAT come from?? Tattoos to fertility. This is a BROAD thread! Ha!