"No need to wear the pagan uniform, and even worse to envy it."
[Greg Long] Since no one else has yet to do so (surprisingly), I guess I’ll have to be the one to point out that God has a tattoo (Is. 49:16) and Jesus has a tattoo (Rev. 19:16).interesting point—you better take cover now…
P.S. I don’t.
Matthew Richards
I was reading an article in “First Things” today regarding marriage when I came across this statement by Robert George discussing how liberals see the body as subpersonal to the self:
(read the entire article at http://www.firstthings.com/article/2009/07/what-marriage-is-and-what-it….).
I think this is the operative idea here: my body is my instrument to rearrange in whatever manner I choose. If I want to treat my body as if it were a canvas that is my decision because I am the sole owner of this thing called the body. It is a declaration of radical autonomy.
Charlie and Chris, I did make a mistake between both of you—sorry for any confusion. With regard to your examples, Charlie, I would say i am not referring to plastic surgery for deformities or injuries. I am not sure that restoring one’s appearance—or changing it in a way that it never was before—is somehow for the glory of God. Not that long ago (I’m 51) women wore clip-on earrings and ear piercing was rather exotic (I doubt women have that choice anymore and my understanding from my mom was the clip-ons hurt her ears after a while). So I would just reiterate what I said in an earlier post—we should at least pause before we do whatever we decide to do with the bodies God gave us and that Christ died to redeem.
By the way, isn’t it a rather low threshhold to say that a tattoo doesn’t “mess up” the function of the body so what is the harm? I’ll grant you that idea, but I’ve not presented it. Let me agree with others who want to know why God outlawed markings for the Children of Israel. I think it’s important to show why that particular scripture has no bearing in this discussion.
The body is viewed as an instrument by which the individual produces or otherwise participates in satisfactions and other desirable experiences and realizes various goals.
(read the entire article at http://www.firstthings.com/article/2009/07/what-marriage-is-and-what-it….).
I think this is the operative idea here: my body is my instrument to rearrange in whatever manner I choose. If I want to treat my body as if it were a canvas that is my decision because I am the sole owner of this thing called the body. It is a declaration of radical autonomy.
Charlie and Chris, I did make a mistake between both of you—sorry for any confusion. With regard to your examples, Charlie, I would say i am not referring to plastic surgery for deformities or injuries. I am not sure that restoring one’s appearance—or changing it in a way that it never was before—is somehow for the glory of God. Not that long ago (I’m 51) women wore clip-on earrings and ear piercing was rather exotic (I doubt women have that choice anymore and my understanding from my mom was the clip-ons hurt her ears after a while). So I would just reiterate what I said in an earlier post—we should at least pause before we do whatever we decide to do with the bodies God gave us and that Christ died to redeem.
By the way, isn’t it a rather low threshhold to say that a tattoo doesn’t “mess up” the function of the body so what is the harm? I’ll grant you that idea, but I’ve not presented it. Let me agree with others who want to know why God outlawed markings for the Children of Israel. I think it’s important to show why that particular scripture has no bearing in this discussion.
In my studies it occurs to me that everything that God has/does is desired and therefore mimicked by Satan. Both are lions, both are anointed, both have a number, both have a sword, both ride white horses, both have marks… so- are the kind of tats people get the mark of God or the mark of Satan, so to speak?
I submit that when I get a tattoo it’ll be because God gave it to me and not one minute before.
While I do think that the OT passage should not be discounted and that each person should at least wrestle with it in making a decision, there are very good reasons, I think, to have a tattoo. I know there have been negative remarks about how “worldly” they are and how they can ruin your testimony, but they can also increase your witness. If your goal is to only be around Christian friends and never to have any input or influence (i.e. salt and light) with the segment of society that may be heavily tattoed or pierced then by all means just write such things off as “worldly” and “ungodly”. However, my Christian brother here in San Diego who has dreads and tattoos and piercings and is quite open and clear about his faith has a lot of opportunities that most of us will never have to reach that segment of the population with the gospel.
As one who works with young men and women in the Marine Corps and Navy, who the vast majority have tattoos, your attitudes come through loud and clear when they attend your churches. I am much more concerned with their relationship with Christ and discipleship than whether they have a tribal on their forearm or an Eagle, Globe, and Anchor tattoed on their shoulder.
My wife just pointed out to me that this is the same attitude that was prevalent in the Jewish community when they tried to force their views on the gentile believers in the book of Acts. She also pointed out to me that this post sounds a bit angry, and I’m sorry if it comes across that way; but I have seen these attitudes do damage in the lives of brothers and sisters in Christ.
No, I don’t have a tattoo; because I HATE needles! :)
Ben
As one who works with young men and women in the Marine Corps and Navy, who the vast majority have tattoos, your attitudes come through loud and clear when they attend your churches. I am much more concerned with their relationship with Christ and discipleship than whether they have a tribal on their forearm or an Eagle, Globe, and Anchor tattoed on their shoulder.
My wife just pointed out to me that this is the same attitude that was prevalent in the Jewish community when they tried to force their views on the gentile believers in the book of Acts. She also pointed out to me that this post sounds a bit angry, and I’m sorry if it comes across that way; but I have seen these attitudes do damage in the lives of brothers and sisters in Christ.
No, I don’t have a tattoo; because I HATE needles! :)
Ben
While I am all for a Christian observing cultural norms that are not in direct opposition to Biblical principle, we have to stop somewhere. Ink, piercings, hair color, fashioin… all should be governed by the principles of moderation and modesty. But even if the norm were to be covered from head to toe with body art and jewelry, we have guidelines that prescribe to us what part of our persona should be receiving attention- the hidden man of the heart, the adornment of our spirits with the doctrines of God. Excessive attention and decoration of this vile flesh IMO does not jibe with God’s admonitions to bring people to Him with our compassion and dedication to purity of mind and body.
ETA: I do not believe that it is appropriate to treat others with disdain because there is some element in their lives that doesn’t ‘measure up’ to Biblical principle. We are to address sin or a questionable practice with someone if 1) we perceive they are in error either willingly or out of ignorance 2) we ourselves are in a position to give wise counsel. This does not allow for a snotty attitude towards someone who has a tattoo or multiple piercings or purple hair.
ETA: I do not believe that it is appropriate to treat others with disdain because there is some element in their lives that doesn’t ‘measure up’ to Biblical principle. We are to address sin or a questionable practice with someone if 1) we perceive they are in error either willingly or out of ignorance 2) we ourselves are in a position to give wise counsel. This does not allow for a snotty attitude towards someone who has a tattoo or multiple piercings or purple hair.
[Ben Howard] While I do think that the OT passage should not be discounted and that each person should at least wrestle with it in making a decision, there are very good reasons, I think, to have a tattoo. I know there have been negative remarks about how “worldly” they are and how they can ruin your testimony, but they can also increase your witness. If your goal is to only be around Christian friends and never to have any input or influence (i.e. salt and light) with the segment of society that may be heavily tattoed or pierced then by all means just write such things off as “worldly” and “ungodly”. However, my Christian brother here in San Diego who has dreads and tattoos and piercings and is quite open and clear about his faith has a lot of opportunities that most of us will never have to reach that segment of the population with the gospel.Ben, this is a great post. Thank you.
As one who works with young men and women in the Marine Corps and Navy, who the vast majority have tattoos, your attitudes come through loud and clear when they attend your churches. I am much more concerned with their relationship with Christ and discipleship than whether they have a tribal on their forearm or an Eagle, Globe, and Anchor tattoed on their shoulder.
My wife just pointed out to me that this is the same attitude that was prevalent in the Jewish community when they tried to force their views on the gentile believers in the book of Acts. She also pointed out to me that this post sounds a bit angry, and I’m sorry if it comes across that way; but I have seen these attitudes do damage in the lives of brothers and sisters in Christ.
No, I don’t have a tattoo; because I HATE needles! :)
Ben
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Greg Long, Ed.D. (SBTS)
Pastor of Adult Ministries
Grace Church, Des Moines, IA
Adjunct Instructor
School of Divinity
Liberty University
[Ben Howard] If your goal is to only be around Christian friends and never to have any input or influence (i.e. salt and light) with the segment of society that may be heavily tattoed or pierced then by all means just write such things off as “worldly” and “ungodly”. However, my Christian brother here in San Diego who has dreads and tattoos and piercings and is quite open and clear about his faith has a lot of opportunities that most of us will never have to reach that segment of the population with the gospel.Ok- so if we applied your reasoning, then, we assume that people with tattoos, dreads, and piercings only go to grocery and retails stores where the employees look like they do. They don’t vote for government officials who don’t have tatts, nor would they ever dream of accepting medical care from a doctor or nurse whose body was unpierced. They never take jobs where they are expected to remove piercings or wear clothing that hides the tattoos… and on we could go.
Ben, I think you are offering a cop out here. Are you really suggesting that tattooed people only are influenced by others who have tattoos (etc)?
When my wife and I were in college, I worked in management for Arby’s for several years to pay the bills. I often hired employees who had tattoos, dreadlocks, and piercings (not to mention one of my assistants who was part of the Goth subculture). I often had the opportunity to share Christ with them. Some of them even came to church with me at times. What made this possible was not adopting their look or whatever, but just treating them with respect and not disdain because of our surface differences.
People- even tattooed people- respond to love and good works much more than they do people adopting their look to try and “fit in” with them. And even if you think they don’t, that’s what God calls for us to distinguish ourselves by as followers of Christ.
Greg Linscott
Marshall, MN
[Ben Howard] While I do think that the OT passage should not be discounted and that each person should at least wrestle with it in making a decision, there are very good reasons, I think, to have a tattoo. I know there have been negative remarks about how “worldly” they are and how they can ruin your testimony, but they can also increase your witness. If your goal is to only be around Christian friends and never to have any input or influence (i.e. salt and light) with the segment of society that may be heavily tattoed or pierced then by all means just write such things off as “worldly” and “ungodly”. However, my Christian brother here in San Diego who has dreads and tattoos and piercings and is quite open and clear about his faith has a lot of opportunities that most of us will never have to reach that segment of the population with the gospel.First of all, the question at hand is what if your sweet Christan daughter or son want to get a tattoo. You’ve made a bit of a leap here to mention how tattooed people are treated in churches. The unsaved do a lot of things that are contrary to scripture. If there is a problem it is a lack of compassion from individuals in a church which has nothing to do with correct teaching. Do you really know of churches that are trying to force their beliefs on unbelievers or that won’t disciple converts because they have a tattoo? That doesn’t make sense.
As one who works with young men and women in the Marine Corps and Navy, who the vast majority have tattoos, your attitudes come through loud and clear when they attend your churches. I am much more concerned with their relationship with Christ and discipleship than whether they have a tribal on their forearm or an Eagle, Globe, and Anchor tattoed on their shoulder.
My wife just pointed out to me that this is the same attitude that was prevalent in the Jewish community when they tried to force their views on the gentile believers in the book of Acts. She also pointed out to me that this post sounds a bit angry, and I’m sorry if it comes across that way; but I have seen these attitudes do damage in the lives of brothers and sisters in Christ.
No, I don’t have a tattoo; because I HATE needles! :)
Ben
Second, your idea is an old one that has been found wanting. People have tried to justify all kinds of culturally relevant “ministries” because “it’s the only way to reach them” (for example, Bob Harrington, the “Chaplain of Bourbon Street”. went into bars and clubs because that’s where the sinners were). If you follow your idea to its logical conclusion, you would never try to reach a tattooed person because you are not tattooed.
If getting a tattoo is wrong, we don’t help the unsaved or fellow Christians by indulging in it ourselves.
[Greg Long] Since no one else has yet to do so (surprisingly), I guess I’ll have to be the one to point out that God has a tattoo (Is. 49:16) and Jesus has a tattoo (Rev. 19:16). P.S. I don’t.So, at least we can say (1) that the God Almighty, Creator of the Universe, has/will have markings that relate to His Deity and Ownership of His creation (both of which are outside the realm of mankind), and (2) Greg isn’t God. :D (So far, so good, Greg!)
I hope that people don’t apply the “rights” that God possesses as God too liberally. He also, as God, casts and carries out judgment… (for example).
For the Shepherd and His sheep, Kevin Grateful husband of a Proverbs 31 wife, and the father of 15 blessings. http://captive-thinker.blogspot.com
[Kevin Subra]There are many things God is and does that we are to try to be and do. God is holy; we are to be holy. God is righteous and loving and just and kind and gracious and we are to imitate Him (yes, I know we cannot ever be like God or even fulfill these requirements in our natural sinful condition without the help of Christ and the Holy Spirit, but that’s beside the point). So it’s not enough to say, “Well, yes God does that, but He’s God and you’re not.” There needs to be some other clear biblical indication that would help us understand God’s will in this matter for the NT Christian.[Greg Long] Since no one else has yet to do so (surprisingly), I guess I’ll have to be the one to point out that God has a tattoo (Is. 49:16) and Jesus has a tattoo (Rev. 19:16). P.S. I don’t.So, at least we can say (1) that the God Almighty, Creator of the Universe, has/will have markings that relate to His Deity and Ownership of His creation (both of which are outside the realm of mankind), and (2) Greg isn’t God. :D (So far, so good, Greg!)
I hope that people don’t apply the “rights” that God possesses as God too liberally. He also, as God, casts and carries out judgment… (for example).
Remember, I’m not trying to prove that Christians SHOULD get tattoos. The burden of proof, of course, is on those who say Christians NEVER SHOULD.
And I fully agree that there are some very good reasons why a Christian should consider very carefully making a decision to get a tattoo. In many cases I would personally believe it to be unwise.
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Greg Long, Ed.D. (SBTS)
Pastor of Adult Ministries
Grace Church, Des Moines, IA
Adjunct Instructor
School of Divinity
Liberty University
The burden of proof, of course, is on those who say Christians NEVER SHOULD.
Why is the burden of proof on the ‘never should’ stance and not on the ‘it’s acceptable’ position? Just curious, because aren’t tattoos are at the very least highly questionable, or there would not have been ANY commands regarding marking one’s body. If it weren’t no biggie, why are they mentioned at all, KWIM? Seems to me that the burden of proof would be that while they were forbidden for the CoI in the OT, this does not carry over at all to the NT Christian. The OT is written for our learning and admonition, and IMO, even though many OT restrictions don’t apply to us today doctrinally or culturally, they should give us a clue as to what God desires from His holy people.
Hope that makes sense- you’d think 3- 16 oz cups of coffee would have cleared the cobwebs by now.
[Susan R]I do not believe that anything commanded or forbidden in the OT automatically carries over into the NT. Otherwise I shouldn’t be wearing mixed-fiber clothing (or any one of a number of other things commanded or forbidden in the OT that are not mentioned in the NT). I believe the OT Law has been fulfilled and abolished by Christ, and that the NT Christian is under the Law of Christ and the commands contained in the NT. See 2 Cor. 3; Gal. 3:19-25.The burden of proof, of course, is on those who say Christians NEVER SHOULD.
Why is the burden of proof on the ‘never should’ stance and not on the ‘it’s acceptable’ position? Just curious, because aren’t tattoos are at the very least highly questionable, or there would not have been ANY commands regarding marking one’s body. If it weren’t no biggie, why are they mentioned at all, KWIM? Seems to me that the burden of proof would be that while they were forbidden for the CoI in the OT, this does not carry over at all to the NT Christian. The OT is written for our learning and admonition, and IMO, even though many OT restrictions don’t apply to us today doctrinally or culturally, they should give us a clue as to what God desires from His holy people.
Hope that makes sense- you’d think 3- 16 oz cups of coffee would have cleared the cobwebs by now.
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Greg Long, Ed.D. (SBTS)
Pastor of Adult Ministries
Grace Church, Des Moines, IA
Adjunct Instructor
School of Divinity
Liberty University
In addition, if God does/will have a tattoo, then the question is, why is it wrong for a Christian? That is the burden of proof. One simply cannot say because He is God. Why is it wrong for a Christian but ok for God?
[Greg Long][Susan R]I do not believe that anything commanded or forbidden in the OT automatically carries over into the NT. Otherwise I shouldn’t be wearing mixed-fiber clothing (or any one of a number of other things commanded or forbidden in the OT that are not mentioned in the NT). I believe the OT Law has been fulfilled and abolished by Christ, and that the NT Christian is under the Law of Christ and the commands contained in the NT. See 2 Cor. 3; Gal. 3:19-25.The burden of proof, of course, is on those who say Christians NEVER SHOULD.
Why is the burden of proof on the ‘never should’ stance and not on the ‘it’s acceptable’ position? Just curious, because aren’t tattoos are at the very least highly questionable, or there would not have been ANY commands regarding marking one’s body. If it weren’t no biggie, why are they mentioned at all, KWIM? Seems to me that the burden of proof would be that while they were forbidden for the CoI in the OT, this does not carry over at all to the NT Christian. The OT is written for our learning and admonition, and IMO, even though many OT restrictions don’t apply to us today doctrinally or culturally, they should give us a clue as to what God desires from His holy people.
Hope that makes sense- you’d think 3- 16 oz cups of coffee would have cleared the cobwebs by now.
None of what you said answers the questions in my post.
I answered the highlighted portion of your post
[Susan R]Yes, the OT is written for our learning and admonition, but no, the OT commands don’t “carry over” into the NT by default.[Greg Long][Susan R]I do not believe that anything commanded or forbidden in the OT automatically carries over into the NT. Otherwise I shouldn’t be wearing mixed-fiber clothing (or any one of a number of other things commanded or forbidden in the OT that are not mentioned in the NT). I believe the OT Law has been fulfilled and abolished by Christ, and that the NT Christian is under the Law of Christ and the commands contained in the NT. See 2 Cor. 3; Gal. 3:19-25.The burden of proof, of course, is on those who say Christians NEVER SHOULD.
Why is the burden of proof on the ‘never should’ stance and not on the ‘it’s acceptable’ position? Just curious, because aren’t tattoos are at the very least highly questionable, or there would not have been ANY commands regarding marking one’s body. If it weren’t no biggie, why are they mentioned at all, KWIM? Seems to me that the burden of proof would be that while they were forbidden for the CoI in the OT, this does not carry over at all to the NT Christian. The OT is written for our learning and admonition, and IMO, even though many OT restrictions don’t apply to us today doctrinally or culturally, they should give us a clue as to what God desires from His holy people.
Hope that makes sense- you’d think 3- 16 oz cups of coffee would have cleared the cobwebs by now.
None of what you said answers the questions in my post.
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Greg Long, Ed.D. (SBTS)
Pastor of Adult Ministries
Grace Church, Des Moines, IA
Adjunct Instructor
School of Divinity
Liberty University
Discussion