PCUSA uncomfortable with phrase "Till on that cross as Jesus died / the wrath of God was satisfied."

Don Sailor, you are trying to split the theological hair too fine. The wrath of God comes from the fact that people are sinners, Romans 1:18. Jesus became sin for us, 2 Cor 5:21, also 1 Peter 2:24. Thus, God viewed the wrath He had for us on Jesus. Then, Jesus paid for that sin and the accompanying wrath by becoming the propitiation for us, see 1 John 2:2. It really is as simple as that…don’t make it any more complicated.

[Shaynus]

Don,

“My God, My God why have you forsaken me?” was quoted by Jesus at the cross. If he was seen by God as only innocent, why would God forsake Him (and do the rest of the imagery in PS 22)? It’s not impossible for God to see Jesus both as sinless and as bearing the sin of the world. Just like the doctrine of the trinity, our categories for what is possible or impossible break down in the light of the cross. Why can’t it be that God can pour his wrath out on Jesus who is made sin for us, and that the same Jesus be perfectly sinless. I see no contradiction. In addition to Is. 53, what about Psalm 22?

Hi Shaynus,

Jesus was quoting Psalm 22:1. There is no way to reference a psalm in his day except by reciting the first line. I encourage you to read Psalm 22 to see what it is about. You will then see why Jesus referred those present to the psalm. It is also important to understand that both Matthew and Mark transliterate the saying. This was done so that the reader would know that Jesus is quoting scripture.

Can you show me a verse in the Bible that states that God poured out his wrath on Jesus? The issue isn’t whether or not you see a contradiction. The issue is whether or not the Bible states that God poured our his wrath on Jesus.

Blessings.

[DavidO]

[Don Sailer] The discipline that brings us peace is nothing less than the obedience of Jesus Christ to the Father’s will to die for us, to carry our sins upon his body. Hebrews 5:7-9 and Philippians 2:8 reveal that Jesus learned obedience from what he suffered. He was made perfect in the sense that he willingly and obediently submitted to the Father’s will (Luke 22:42). He was obedient to death - even death on a cross (Phil. 2:8)!

It was this discipline that resulted in obedience to death that brought us peace. Punishment was not upon him but discipline - the discipline to subject himself to the Father’s will and become obedient to death.

Bolding mine, of course. Those two statements say two things that seem not be consistent with one another. Would Jesus have obeyed without being disciplined?

Don, you say Jesus died for our sins. What do you mean by for? Because of? On behalf of? In service of? For can mean a lot of things. Protestants have traditionally believed that “for” in that context means in punishment of.

Do you believe a sinner is declared righteous when converted? How can a just God declare a sinner righteous if his sins have not been punished?

How does the ‘satisfying love’ view of the atonement explain this from Galatians 3?

Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us - for it is written, ‘Cursed be every one who hangs on a tree.

The wages of sin is death. Jesus Christ died for us. His blood covers us and washes our sins away when we believe in him. God is now right and just to forgive us of our sins when we turn to Christ because the one sacrifice that can take away sin was offered. The curse of the law is death. Here, Jesus becoming a curse for us is synonymous with Jesus dying for us. The curse Jesus suffered is death. Another way to look at it is that Jesus became a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God by dying for our sins (Hebrews 2:9-18).

As to punishment of our sins, what is forgiveness? What does it mean to have a debt forgiven? Does someone else have to be punished for my debt to be forgiven?

The fact is, the Bible teaches that Jesus is an atoning sacrifice for our sins. He is the Lamb of God that takes away the sin of this world. His death makes this a reality for all who believe. I do not need to read into Scripture more than what it states.

Can you show me a verse that states that Jesus bore the wrath of God? I’ve already given verses that state that Jesus was not alone when he was crucified. He claimed that his Father was with him. He claimed that his Father was pleased with him. He cites Psalm 22:1 and the last word of the psalm (asa’) to prove that he was doing the Father’s will and that his Father was not despising him or disdaining him or turning his face from him.

Blessings.

It’s possible to not have a verse that states something explicitly and say that the Bible teaches something. Again, the trinity is a good example of this. I’ve read the Psalm I think it’s clear Jesus was referencing himself in the Psalm. The Bible indicates that the wrath of God needs to be poured out on sinners. If not me, then who? Jesus. That’s who.

[DavidO]

[Don Sailer] The discipline that brings us peace is nothing less than the obedience of Jesus Christ to the Father’s will to die for us, to carry our sins upon his body. Hebrews 5:7-9 and Philippians 2:8 reveal that Jesus learned obedience from what he suffered. He was made perfect in the sense that he willingly and obediently submitted to the Father’s will (Luke 22:42). He was obedient to death - even death on a cross (Phil. 2:8)!

It was this discipline that resulted in obedience to death that brought us peace. Punishment was not upon him but discipline - the discipline to subject himself to the Father’s will and become obedient to death.

Bolding mine, of course. Those two statements say two things that seem not be consistent with one another. Would Jesus have obeyed without being disciplined?

Don, you say Jesus died for our sins. What do you mean by for? Because of? On behalf of? In service of? For can mean a lot of things. Protestants have traditionally believed that “for” in that context means in punishment of.

Do you believe a sinner is declared righteous when converted? How can a just God declare a sinner righteous if his sins have not been punished?

How does the ‘satisfying love’ view of the atonement explain this from Galatians 3?

Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us - for it is written, ‘Cursed be every one who hangs on a tree.

I didn’t write the Bible. The word used in the NIV for “punishment” can also be translated as discipline. The LXX translators used “paidea” to translate the Hebrew word. This word also means discipline.

The Bible teaches that Jesus learned obedience - obedience to death, even death on a cross. This discipline is the discipline that brings us peace. So yes, the discipline that brings us peace was upon him.

[christian cerna]

Don, Jesus Christ took on himself the punishment that we deserved. He died among criminals, hanged on a cross. He died for us, though he was innocent and sinless before God.

But regardless of one’s theological view, the song doesn’t even say that the wrath of God was against Christ. It merely says that when Jesus died, the wrath of God was satisfied. It could refer to the wrath of God that we deserved, when we were once children of wrath. Jesus’s death satisfied the justice of God.

Ephesians 2:3
“…among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.”

I understand. And if that is the meaning that most understand when singing the song, then the issue is greatly diminished. But most people who sing this song believe that God’s wrath was satisfied when Jesus died on the cross because God poured out his wrath on Jesus in wave upon wave until it was completely exhausted upon Jesus.

Blessings.

[Don Sailer]

[christian cerna]

Don, Jesus Christ took on himself the punishment that we deserved. He died among criminals, hanged on a cross. He died for us, though he was innocent and sinless before God.

But regardless of one’s theological view, the song doesn’t even say that the wrath of God was against Christ. It merely says that when Jesus died, the wrath of God was satisfied. It could refer to the wrath of God that we deserved, when we were once children of wrath. Jesus’s death satisfied the justice of God.

Ephesians 2:3
“…among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.”

I understand. And if that is the meaning that most understand when singing the song, then the issue is greatly diminished. But most people who sing this song believe that God’s wrath was satisfied when Jesus died on the cross because God poured out his wrath on Jesus in wave upon wave until it was completely exhausted upon Jesus.

Blessings.

I think God’s wrath was satisfied FOR ME. I don’t think it was satisfied, because hell still exists. I sing the song all the time knowing what it means, and I don’t think anyone is confused.

[Don Sailer] As to punishment of our sins, what is forgiveness? What does it mean to have a debt forgiven? Does someone else have to be punished for my debt to be forgiven?

Does someone have to die at all for my debt to be forgiven? Why did God kill His Son? Because his love would not otherwise be satisfied? That’s weird.

Why was Jesus’ sacrifice the only one that could wash away sin? There’s a reason the death of bulls and goats couldn’t do it.

[Mark_Smith]

Don Sailor, you are trying to split the theological hair too fine. The wrath of God comes from the fact that people are sinners, Romans 1:18. Jesus became sin for us, 2 Cor 5:21, also 1 Peter 2:24. Thus, God viewed the wrath He had for us on Jesus. Then, Jesus paid for that sin and the accompanying wrath by becoming the propitiation for us, see 1 John 2:2. It really is as simple as that…don’t make it any more complicated.

Hi Mark,

My name is Don Sailer, not Don Sailor.

No one is denying that human beings are the object of God’s wrath if they remain in a state of rebellion.

Jesus is a sin offering for us. He did not become “sin” for us if you mean that Jesus somehow bore our sin in his body in some intrinsic way that changed his nature. 1 Peter 2:24 uses the Greek word “anaphero” that is translated as “bore.” It means that Jesus took up or carried our sins “on” his body. The preposition “en” can also be translated as on, near, at, upon, etc. Isaiah 53:4-6 is a good description of what Jesus did. He took up or carried our infirmities, sorrows, sins. Jesus bore our sins upon his body. He then died for us.

Do you have a verse that states that God viewed the wrath that he had for us on Jesus? Do you have a verse in the Bible that states that Jesus “paid” for our sins. I can’t find a verse that states either.

[Shaynus]

It’s possible to not have a verse that states something explicitly and say that the Bible teaches something. Again, the trinity is a good example of this. I’ve read the Psalm I think it’s clear Jesus was referencing himself in the Psalm. The Bible indicates that the wrath of God needs to be poured out on sinners. If not me, then who? Jesus. That’s who.

The word “trinity” is not in the Bible. But there are numerous verses that explicitly teach that God consists of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. We believe in the concept of the trinity because the Bible teaches the concept (John 1:1, Matthew 28:19, etc. ).

All I’m asking of you is to provide a verse that teaches the concept that God poured out his wrath on Jesus so that his wrath doesn’t have to be poured out on us.

Now show me a verse that states or teaches that Jesus is the object of God’s wrath, or that God poured out his wrath on Jesus?

[DavidO]

[Don Sailer] As to punishment of our sins, what is forgiveness? What does it mean to have a debt forgiven? Does someone else have to be punished for my debt to be forgiven?

Does someone have to die at all for my debt to be forgiven? Why did God kill His Son? Because his love would not otherwise be satisfied? That’s weird.

Why was Jesus’ sacrifice the only one that could wash away sin? There’s a reason the death of bulls and goats couldn’t do it.

Hi David,

The point I was making is that “forgiveness” is a concept that is poorly understood by many when it comes to our sins. I don’t know why the Son had to die except that the death of bulls and goats couldn’t do it. I only know that the Son had to die because the Bible states that this is so.

Do you see what I’m getting at? We believe that Jesus is the only sacrifice that can take away sin because the Bible teaches this.

Now where does it teach that Jesus had to die to bear God’s wrath? Where does it teach that God poured out his wrath on Jesus? Where does it teach that Jesus died to satisfy the wrath of God?

The PCUSA committee suggested a change in the line of the song that is actually supported by Scripture. Truly, the love of God was magnified when Jesus died for our sins. There are so many verses that teach that Jesus died to satisfy the love of God. There are none that teach that Jesus died to satisfy the wrath of God.

We are by nature objects of God’s wrath. But in Christ we are objects of God’s love, kindness and grace. Did Jesus die to appease an angry God? Or did Jesus die to fulfill God’s loving desire to forgive sinners? There’s a Romans 5:8 for the second question. There is no verse for the first question.

Don, Is. 53 really couldn’t be more clear. He was stricken, smitten, afflicted, wounded, bruised, chastised, oppressed. By whom? By God. It pleased the Lord to bruise Him.

There are indeed verses which, when considered together, do support the traditional protestant answer to the first question.

Now this is an excellent thread. It is so much better than the usual drivel. Threads like this are why I check this place often.

I would point out to David O that Jesus gave up His life of His own will in His own timing.

Don Sailer, I appreciate your points very much. They make me examine what I believe about what exactly happened on the Cross.

Example: I have heard like New York lawyer boiler plate from every other pastor in the pulpit that: “God is so Holy that He cannot look on sin and that is why He turned His back on His Son on the cross.” That statement seemed so obviously wrong to me since God has been in the presence of sin since Adam. God hung out with Adam while He made him some new clothes, He talked to Moses like a friend, He entertained the High Priest once a year, and so forth. (Not to mention that Jesus had been hanging with mankind for like 33 years prior to the cross.) So Shaynus, I have always wondered about those words from Jesus on the cross about being forsaken. And then I heard it explained to me in a way that finally made sense.

A teacher I enjoy said it like this. God the Father didn’t go anywhere. Yet Jesus the Son in those last minutes as a man with the burden of mankind’s sin heaped upon Him had His close bond of fellowship with His Father broken for the first time ever. Jesus couldn’t see, touch, hear, feel His connection due to that sin burden. The shock of that moment brought His cry.

That may not satisfy anyone here but it seems to me more in character with God the Father than abandonment.

Don, if your central objection is: how could God be so unfair as to pour out his wrath on Jesus, a perfect human being, then let’s step back a little. How fair was it for the second person of the trinity to lower himself to take upon himself the form of a servant, and then eventually death, and not only that, but death on a cross. It would appear to me that Jesus didn’t care about fairness, and fairness was one of the things he gave up on our behalf. He could have made fairness, a thing to be grasped, but lowered himself, even to death on a cross. Why try to rescue him from perceived unfairness when he gave all his rights up anyway?