PCUSA uncomfortable with phrase "Till on that cross as Jesus died / the wrath of God was satisfied."

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James K's picture

Again, I do disagree with your conclusions but glad you are able to actually consider the text.  I wish you well.

1 Kings 8:60 - so that all the peoples of the earth may know that the LORD is God and that there is no other.

Chip Van Emmerik's picture

Don Sailer wrote:
Romans 3:25 states that God in his forbearance passed over the sins previously committed. Why did God do this?
Don,

Maybe you can explain what you believe it means for God to "pass over" (winked at in KJV) sins previously committed.

Why is it that my voice always seems to be loudest when I am saying the dumbest things?

James K's picture

Don, I have been thinking about how to express this regarding Romans 3.

In your view, God never actually punishes sin for the believer.  This is the problem your view has.  God is not just in his dealing with sin, because he allows it to go unpunished.  Basically you say that our slate was wiped clean if I understand you, but nothing was punished.

That is in hardcore opposition to everything we know about how God dealt with every manner of sin from the garden till the final judgment.

God had to punish sin in Christ to be just.  That is Paul's whole point.  God's wrath against sin (Rom 1) was dealt with in a just manner (Rom 3).

1 Kings 8:60 - so that all the peoples of the earth may know that the LORD is God and that there is no other.

christian cerna's picture

I read somewhere that "baraq o' bama" means lightning from the heights

"And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven." Luke 10:17

My Hebrew is a little rusty, so I was wondering if someone could confirm that for me.

Don Sailer's picture

Chip Van Emmerik wrote:

Don Sailer wrote:
Romans 3:25 states that God in his forbearance passed over the sins previously committed. Why did God do this?
Don,

Maybe you can explain what you believe it means for God to "pass over" (winked at in KJV) sins previously committed.

It would appear that God in his forbearance passed over sins previously committed by not "expiating" them. Hebrews 10:4 explains the problem. Animal sacrifices couldn't take away sins. A better sacrifice was needed. That sacrifice of atonement was Jesus Christ. Now that sins have been taken away by Christ's sacrifice, God is just or right to justify those who believe in Christ (1 John 1:9, Romans 3:26).

christian cerna's picture

Don, the word sacrifice itself denotes something/someone else bearing the wrath of God in place of others.

Why did Jesus have to die? Because death was the punishment required of us all. 

Don Sailer's picture

James K wrote:

Don, I have been thinking about how to express this regarding Romans 3.

In your view, God never actually punishes sin for the believer.  This is the problem your view has.  God is not just in his dealing with sin, because he allows it to go unpunished.  Basically you say that our slate was wiped clean if I understand you, but nothing was punished.

That is in hardcore opposition to everything we know about how God dealt with every manner of sin from the garden till the final judgment.

God had to punish sin in Christ to be just.  That is Paul's whole point.  God's wrath against sin (Rom 1) was dealt with in a just manner (Rom 3).

 

Does not Romans 6:23 teach that the wages of sin is death? Do we not all die? Isn't the punishment for sin still occurring daily among us, both for saints and sinners? The last time I checked everyone still dies. The punishment for sin is death, and we do die. So God does punish sin for the believer and the sinner. Both die. God does not have to punish sin in Christ to be just because sin is already punished by death. That is Paul's whole point, by the trespass of the one man sin has entered into the world, and "death through sin" (Romans 5:12). So the punishment for sin is death and condemnation (Romans 5:18).

Now the barrier to entering into a relationship with God is our sin or unrighteousness. Now Paul, citing David in Psalm 22:1-2 states, "Blessed are they whose transgressions are forgiven, whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man whose sin the Lord will never count against him" (Romans 4:7-8).

How does this take place? By God punishing Christ to conform to the law? Or does this occur through the righteous life of Christ outside of the law?

Romans 4:13-15 states, "It was not through the law that Abraham and his offspring received the promise that he would be heir of the world, but through the righteousness that comes by faith. For if those who live by law are heirs, faith has no value and the promise is worthless, because law brings wrath. And where there is no law there is no transgression."

You won't be able to grasp the truth of these verses until you set aside your preconceived ideas about what God must do. These verses state unambiguously that the law brings wrath, but where there is no law there is no transgression.

The promise is fulfilled through the righteousness that comes by faith so that it might be by grace to all of Abraham's offspring. That includes us (Romans 4:13-16).

There is no mention of punishment in this section of Scripture. Where there is no law there is no transgression. And so we believe in God "who gives life to the dead and calls things that are not as though they were" (Romans 4:17).

Now do we receive the promise of eternal life through the law or outside of the law? Are we the seed of Abraham through the law or outside of the law? Do we have the righteousness of Christ through the law or outside of the law? And if outside, then there is no wrath, for it is the law that brings wrath. But the promise of being the seed of Abraham occurs outside of the law (Romans 4:13).

Therefore, Christ died for us outside of the law. He died for us because God loves us. And the amazing thing is, even though we are sinners, Christ still died for us. Which leads us into Romans 5:9-10 where we see that we are saved from wrath through or in his life, not his death. It is the righteous life of Christ outside of the law that saves us from wrath when we are in Christ. Why? Because there is no wrath in Christ. He is righteous.

Now will you use the language of Scripture to describe what the death of Christ accomplished? Because Romans 5 makes a contrast between the "trespass" of Adam and the "gift" of Jesus Christ. The trespass brings death, judgment, and condemnation; the gift brings justification. Then Paul states, "For if , by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God's abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ" (v. 17).

The gift is the Son (John 3:16). The gift is given outside of the law. The gift is God's grace reigning through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord (Romans 5:21).

Now if we reject the gift, we are condemned already (John 3:17). But if we accept the gift, even though we still die, we receive eternal life in Christ through his righteous, obedient life (Romans 6:23, Romans 5:18-19).

Amazing.

God didn't have to punish sin in Christ to be just; God had to take our sins away in Christ to be just.

christian cerna's picture

You had me for a moment. But then you said that Christ died outside the law. When Jesus was on the Earth, was he not subject to the law, just as all of us are? Isn't Christ supposed to be the fulfillment of the law? Isn't he the true lamb of God, the sacrifice that all of the sacrifices made under the OT law pointed to? 

Jesus fulfilled the law, and we receive his righteousness when we are saved.

christian cerna's picture

Earlier you wrote, "Now do we receive the promise of eternal life through the law or outside of the law". But that is not the option given to us by Paul. Paul asks if we receive the promise(spirit) by works of the law, or by faith. He does not say anything about being outside the law. The reason why we receive the promise is not because we are outside the law, but because of our faith in Christ, who fulfilled the law. Christ's righteousness is shared with us, when we are baptized into Christ.

Don Sailer's picture

christian cerna wrote:

Earlier you wrote, "Now do we receive the promise of eternal life through the law or outside of the law". But that is not the option given to us by Paul. Paul asks if we receive the promise(spirit) by works of the law, or by faith. He does not say anything about being outside the law. The reason why we receive the promise is not because we are outside the law, but because of our faith in Christ, who fulfilled the law. Christ's righteousness is shared with us, when we are baptized into Christ.

 

Romans 4:13

Don Sailer's picture

christian cerna wrote:

You had me for a moment. But then you said that Christ died outside the law. When Jesus was on the Earth, was he not subject to the law, just as all of us are? Isn't Christ supposed to be the fulfillment of the law? Isn't he the true lamb of God, the sacrifice that all of the sacrifices made under the OT law pointed to? 

Jesus fulfilled the law, and we receive his righteousness when we are saved.

 

I think I agree with you.

What I meant by Christ dying outside the law is that he didn't die to satisfy the wrath that comes from the law. The promise to Abraham came before the law. This promise of a seed that would save us was given before the law was given and is received by faith, not law. So that's what I meant.

Nevertheless, this Jesus was perfect and righteous. As one who fulfilled all of the law he was not the object of God's wrath. When we enter into his righteous life and sacrifice, we enter into a wrath free zone! Smile See Romans 5:9-10, 6:1-4, 4:13-19. It is his righteousness (his life) that saves us from wrath and condemnation.

Jesus didn't need to be punished for our sins because we already have been punished for our sins. We are spiritually dead and we are going to die physically. We are condemned already (John 3:17). But when we look to the righteous sacrifice of Christ and enter into him by grace through faith we receive eternal life. Now we are longer under condemnation (Romans 8:1). We have eternal life (Romans 6:23, John 3:16). There is no wrath because we are in Christ and we have his righteousness.

DavidO's picture

Don Sailer wrote:
Jesus didn't need to be punished for our sins because we already have been punished for our sins. We are spiritually dead and we are going to die physically. We are condemned already (John 3:17).

Surely you don't mean to represent this as the entirety of our punishment.  You'd agree that there is further punishment for those who die outside of Christ, yes?  Just want to clarify.

Don Sailer's picture

DavidO wrote:

Don Sailer wrote:
Jesus didn't need to be punished for our sins because we already have been punished for our sins. We are spiritually dead and we are going to die physically. We are condemned already (John 3:17).

Surely you don't mean to represent this as the entirety of our punishment.  You'd agree that there is further punishment for those who die outside of Christ, yes?  Just want to clarify.

 

Agree. Absolutely.

We are dead spiritually. We are dying physically. We are under God's judgment and condemned (Romans 5:16). And if we die outside of Christ's righteousness our condemnation will be eternal (Revelation 20:10, 15).

So Paul asks, "Who will rescue me from this body of death?" (Romans 7:24).

His response? Thanks be to God - through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Jesus rescues us! God sent the Son into the world to rescue us from condemnation, not to be condemned for us. If you are in Christ Jesus "there is now no condemnation" (Romans 8:1). When God sent his Son into the world, the Son condemned sin in sinful man in order that the righteous requirements of the law might be fully met in us (Romans 8:3-4).

Think about this. Sin condemns us. Christ condemns sin in sinful man. Christ didn't die to pay our penalty for sin. He died to condemn sin. Amazing.

God is for us! God doesn't need his wrath appeased. God is love! God sent his Son into the world to be an atoning sacrifice to condemn sin in sinful man (Romans 8:31, 1 John 4:8-10).

Romans 8:33-34, "Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. Who is he that condemns? Christ Jesus, who died - more than that, who was raised to life - is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us." It is Christ Jesus who condemns sin in sinful man by interceding at the right hand of God! Jesus Christ shed his blood to cover our sins. He then takes his own blood and enters into the Holy of Holies and intercedes for those who are in him (Hebrews 9:12, 14). And our sins are forgiven, condemned! Amazing. Christ condemns sin in sinful man so that we can serve the living God! He does this by cleansing our consciences from acts that lead to death.

No, Jesus did not suffer God's wrath on the cross. That is not why he died. He did not suffer our punishment on the cross. That is not why he died. He did not take our penalty on the cross. That is not why he died. He died to condemn sin in sinful man. He died to cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death. He died so that by his own blood he could intercede for us. He died to make us righteous by grace. He died to make us alive (Romans 8:10-11).

Amazing.

 

christian cerna's picture

Don, I think you need to work on your definitions. That is why you are mixed up. Perhaps a dictionary would help.  Condemn means to judge someone guilty of something. 

God does not condemn sin. God condemns men for their sins. Perhaps you are one of those people who gets uncomfortable talking about God's anger and wrath, and prefers to sugar coat it, or focus more on God's love. 

Perhaps if we began to define the terms we use, then this dialog would be more meaningful. 

 

Don Sailer's picture

christian cerna wrote:

Don, I think you need to work on your definitions. That is why you are mixed up. Perhaps a dictionary would help.  Condemn means to judge someone guilty of something. 

God does not condemn sin. God condemns men for their sins. Perhaps you are one of those people who gets uncomfortable talking about God's anger and wrath, and prefers to sugar coat it, or focus more on God's love. 

Perhaps if we began to define the terms we use, then this dialog would be more meaningful. 

 

 

Hi Christian,

Do you ever do any research in the Bible on your own? Do you read the Bible? I've put the key phrase in bold font so that you won't miss it!

Romans 8:3-4 state, "For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in sinful man, in order that the righteous requirements of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit" (NIV).

Do you see, Christian? Do you see that the reason the righteous requirements of the law might be fully met in us is because Jesus condemned sin in the flesh? Do you see it? Do you see that we have received the gift of righteousness  not because Jesus was condemned for us on the cross but because Jesus condemned sin in the flesh? Do you see it?

 

christian cerna's picture

I don't believe any of us ever said that Jesus was condemned for us. We know that God did not condemn Jesus, because God did not find Jesus guilty of any sin. We said that Jesus willingly (out of love for the father and us) took on himself the punishment for our sins.

Gal. 4:4-5, "But when the fullness of the time came, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the Law, in order that He might redeem those who were under the Law, that we might receive the adoption as sons."

-Notice it says that Jesus was born under the law(not outside of it).

Gal. 3:13, "Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us — for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree."

-Notice it says that the Law is a curse, and that Christ became a curse for us(he was under the law).

Rom. 4:15, "...for the Law brings about wrath."

- Because of the Law, sin brings about the wrath of God. 

2 Cor. 5:21, "He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him."

-Jesus(who was born under the law) became sin on our behalf.

In conclusion, anyone born under the law who bears sins must suffer the wrath of God. 

Ezekiel 18:4, "Behold, all souls are Mine; the soul of the father as well as the soul of the son is Mine.  The soul who sins will die."

Rom. 6:23, "For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."

 

 

 

 

 

Don Sailer's picture

Christian, you are getting silly.

Jesus never sinned so he isn't subject to the penalty for sin which is death. The free gift of God is Christ, the sinless one, who is not subject to death. And yet, in love, he gives himself up for us all to set us free from sin, death, and the devil. The result is eternal life for those who believe.

The law is not a curse. The curse of the law is death.

To be born under the law with regard to Jesus means that he is Israel's Messiah, and Israel should embrace him so that they can be redeemed by him just like the Gentiles are being redeemed by him.

You didn't answer my previous post. Did you see where the Bible states that Jesus Christ condemned sin in sinful man?

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