Should Bible colleges have women serve as chapel speakers?
Some discussion I’ve seen on this leaps a bit hastily to “what this proves about NIU” and the like. There are more important questions: is there a biblical basis for restricting women from serving in this way? Is a Bible college a church? Is it consistent to have women on leadership boards but not allow them to address the organizations they help lead? Is an inspiring lecture with Bible verses in it “preaching” in the local church sense?
The answers are not obvious enough to just assume.
Views expressed are always my own and not my employer's, my church's, my family's, my neighbors', or my pets'. The house plants have authorized me to speak for them, however, and they always agree with me.
- Starting with agreement with Paul: “And I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, but to be in silence.” (1 Timothy 2:12). I agree with this statement completely but observe that it applies to churches and a church context.
- Observation #1: NIU is not a church. Say to have a female teacher teaching on various subjects like math, English, music, et cetera - no issue for me
- Observation #2: I regularly hear women teach in various non-church functions: work, Toastmasters, work-related conferences. I don’t have a problem with this
- Observation #3: In over 28 yrs. (of secular work), I estimate that ⅓ of that time I have had a female manager (functioning as my authority). I don’t have a problem with that (in fact in all my years of work I’ve had two terrible managers - one who tried to fire me (too bad … I far exceeded my sales’ goals!) - and both were males.
- Observation #4: In a church setting, I don’t have a problem with women teaching male children (although at about adolescence (say Jr High), it strikes me that a male teacher is much preferred.
- Observation #5: In a church setting, over decades, I’ve listened to a number of female missionaries share testimonies, the nature of the work, et cetera. I don’t have a problem with this
- Observation #6: For a para-church organization, I don’t have an issue with female board members (nor in the corporate / secular world)
- Comment / question: What constitutes “chapel”? Is “chapel” = “church service” at a Bible college? Not so sure … see observation #1. What about “assembly”? In HS we used to have “assemblies” in the gym or auditorium with various speakers. I listened to about 7 min of the above speech … it was interesting. I don’t see the woman as a pastor.
“I desire then that in every place the men should pray, lifting holy hands without anger or quarreling; likewise also that women should adorn themselves in respectable apparel, with modesty and self-control, not with braided hair and gold or pearls or costly attire, but with what is proper for women who profess godliness—with good works. Let a woman learn quietly with all submissiveness. I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet.” (1 Timothy 2:8-12, ESV)
1. Does “every place” refer to “every church meeting” or “every situation”.
2. Does “teach” refer to any teaching or is it to be taking in conjunction with “exercising authority” as in teaching with authority (i.e. pastoring).
I don’t have time to dig into the Greek right now, but I think those are the questions that should frame the discussion.
Re Chapel at Bible College, I don’t see the importance of it. Christians should be members of churches where they are taught, worship, and serve.
Assemblies for special programs … makes sense from time time time (Ad Hoc)
Personally, I don’t think that we can necessarily say that 1 Timothy 2 is just for the church setting. I think it is more specific to the worship ministry of preaching in general to the teaching of the Word of God over men. The preaching of the word of God in any context church or no The teaching of the word of God over men in any context church or no. A college chapel is not a church service, but it is a worship service where in a normal setting the word of God is being preached. Biblically according to this passage Northland’s female preacher in this video is unbiblical and unacceptable. If it was a special “chapel” in which a guest speaker came to speak on an extrabiblical topic that would be acceptable, but from the little I listened to the given message that is not the case. Has anyone seen comments from NIU about this?
This link from Kevin Bauder might be of interest in thinking through the topic…
http://seminary.wcts1030.com/publications/PD2009Mar-Session2-Bauder.ppt
BTW- interesting fact, but I believe one of my wife’s grandfathers actually came to Christ under the ministry of Amy Lee Stockton, mentioned by Kevin Bauder in the link I provided… She was licensed to preach by Wealthy Street (now Wealthy Park) Baptist Church in Grand Rapids, MI, a prominent GARBC church for many years…
Greg Linscott
Marshall, MN
[paynen]Personally, I don’t think that we can necessarily say that 1 Timothy 2 is just for the church setting. I think it is more specific to the worship ministry of preaching in general to the teaching of the Word of God over men. The preaching of the word of God in any context church or no The teaching of the word of God over men in any context church or no. A college chapel is not a church service, but it is a worship service where in a normal setting the word of God is being preached. Biblically according to this passage Northland’s female preacher in this video is unbiblical and unacceptable. If it was a special “chapel” in which a guest speaker came to speak on an extrabiblical topic that would be acceptable, but from the little I listened to the given message that is not the case. Has anyone seen comments from NIU about this?
- As I indicated above, I listened to about 7 min of it (time constraint that I had). Her topic was “it’s Ok to fail” (I speculate that the direction was … give all to God … see what He may do (not a bad idea!)). My recollection is that she had not gotten to any text up to the time I stopped listening (may have been less than 7). Suppose she had not used any text at all! Would that be OK?
- Suppose you have a woman talking on any topic (pick one … for the sake of argument the topic is “The Cake Flopped and I Cried” (a newlywed story). Suppose at the very end she throws in Ephesians 5:28, “Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself for her”. And she said, “I learned an important lesson today … even though my cake flopped, my husband loves me … reminds me of a devotional study Ephesians 5:28 … et cetera). Does that constitute preaching (I’m sure that is deep for some IFB preachers :) )
- Take the female missionary observation I made earlier. Here is a very very smart female Bible translator Here she has a blog post that deals with a translation issue. Suppose she shared that on a Wednesday night. is that preaching? Or is it only appropriate that she speaks to a non-Biblical topic of “Domestic animals in Chad”?
- Or take an ABF class (I sometimes teach young adults … mixed gender). You know people generally come completely unprepared to a Sunday School class - they are barely awake! Suppose during a discussion time a woman (horrors!!!!) cites another verse that cross-references the lesson of the day? Preaching? Does she need to stick to messages like “The cake flopped and I cried”)?
While our society has overthrown much of the “traditional” western view of male/female roles, the issues are rooted in God’s purposes in creation. The relevant passage, 1 Tim 2.12, for example, is supported by an appeal to creation, 1 Tim 2.13. See also 1 Cor 11.2-16 and other passages.
Our society is pushing back against the created order on all sorts of fronts. While I don’t get too exercised by female leadership in society (i.e., politics, the workplace, etc.) it is still contrary to the created order. The fact that female leadership is a minority exception is something that tends to support the notion that “nature itself teaches us” about these things. (Of course, feminists have said it is the evil male patriarchy, etc.) To date there has never been a female president of the USA. Canada has only had one female prime minister, and she didn’t last long. There have been some female leaders at lower levels of political office (governors, premiers, cabinet level positions), but they are still in the minority overall.
The church (at large) is heavily influenced by the world. So it is no surprise to see Christians caving in on this issue, but it is one issue that must be heartily resisted in every Christian venue. It really doesn’t matter that a college isn’t a church - it is the activity that is a usurpation of God-created roles. It is the usurpation of God’s order that causes us to notice this.
I would refer everyone to the work of the Council of Biblical Manhood and Womanhood (an organization that has some problems on a ecclesiastical association level). They have produced some excellent resources that provide well-reasoned exegetical support to the Creation mandate. You can download pdf copies of some of their resources here, at no charge.
As for NIU, specifically, I don’t have much to say. Their whole direction is on a trajectory that I don’t follow. Given their history of fundamentalism, I have regrets about that decision, but what more can we say about them than has already been said?
Maranatha!
Don Johnson
Jer 33.3
In my opinion preaching isn’t necessarily using a text. (good preaching is) but based off of a sermonic proposition such as God says this so therefore you MUST do this. Teaching about God would be using texts and teaching about them. She definitely was telling her audience what God does and does not want one to do.
- Does your church support female missionaries?
- Do they speak before the church?
- Do they use the Bible?
- Is it teaching?
Probably NIU could have handled it better:
- Separate the genders for the hour
- Have Lina address the women &
- A male speaker the men
[Jim]
- Does your church support female missionaries?
- Do they speak before the church?
- Do they use the Bible?
- Is it teaching?
We don’t support any single women missionaries. I have specific views on this, but don’t want to derail the thread. However, as long as I am pastor, this position will never change.
Maranatha!
Don Johnson
Jer 33.3
similar to what I said before, is it a presentation or is it authoritative? A female missionary presents her ministry and can use the Bible to show how Scripture has impacted her ministry. Once it crosses the line from a presentation of her ministry to a proposition from the word of God it has crossed the line into authoritativeness.
I guess I’m not surprised by NIU having a woman speaker in chapel. After their Redeemed rock band fiasco and all of the other philosophical changes they’ve made, should any of use be surprised by this. But hey, at least now there’s more hope for the gospel now more than ever, right?
At a time when NIU needs to provide clarity of who and what they are so that people can start to develop a sense of confidence needed in order to send their kids to NIU, having a woman speaker in chapel isn’t helping their cause. The changes keep coming and coming.
On the one hand should we be surprised? No.
On the other hand, you still wonder when are the changes going to stop. Just when NIU needs to provide certainty in order to have a sustaining enrollment, this does not help.
Discussion