Elizabeth Vargas’ Year-long Investigation into the Independent Fundamental Baptist Church Airs on “20/20,” Friday, April 8, 10-11 PM ET
Elizabeth Vargas’ Yearlong Investigation Into The Independent Fundamental Baptist Church, Airs On “20/20,” Friday, April 8, 10-11 PM ET Try to imagine the pain and humiliation of a teenage girl, just 15 years old, who says she was forced to stand in front of a New Hampshire church congregation and confess her “sin” of being pregnant. She says not only was she forced to confess her pregnancy, but also to ask for their forgiveness – with no mention of the man she says sexually abused her. After all, she says, the pastor told her it’s better than being stoned to death as the bible describes. That is what Tina Anderson alleged happened to her at her ultra conservative Independent Fundamental Baptist, or IFB, Church. The IFB has thousands of congregations across the country, but many people have never heard of it. That was, until another woman, Jocelyn Zichterman, began a public campaign – armed with nothing but a computer and memories of her own alleged abuse that she says church beliefs can foster. And survivors are now coming out of the woodwork, to say she’s not alone.
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I posted elsewhere my opinion that there are factors in how we structure our churches and in our view of authority that do lend themselves to this. It wasn’t one of my finest posts in terms of proving my point, but maybe we need to watch this 20/20 special with a little more of an open mind. They may miss the boat on the immediate case under discussion, yet still recognize something in our churches that we desperately need to understand about ourselves.
The discussion here about the New Hampshire case leads me to post some pastoral concerns:
Speaking as someone who has been in on a few of these situations, at one level or another:
1). All of us need to be very carefully planning our own policies on how we will handle these things.
2). We need to acknowledge that the victims of such treatment are understandably injured, and frequently carry scars of this injury. The result is that their interpretation of what we say and do may be anger-tinged, even if we do everything right. In fact, their interpretation WILL be different as adults than it is as the victimized child or teen. We need to accept that they may question how we handled things later, even if we do nothing wrong in how we handle them.
3). Hindsight is 20/20, and all of us will look back at how we handled these situations and realize that there was something we could have handled better.
4). Following Roland Pittman’s posts on one of the related threads, I have to share his concern that we let Biblical and Pastoral concerns guide us, rather than merely letting the modern child abuse industry’s (for lack of a better term) paradigm control our action. And no, I don’t agree with Roland’s posts in general.
5). Two times in my ministry years, I have run across cases in which a child/young teen attempted to seduce an adult. Be warned: this is not simply a case of an immoral child or young teen. Invariably, there is a molestation matter lurking in the background history somewhere. Dig, dig, dig, for the good of the kid.
6). In certain families, the “old guard” (grandparents, or even older parents) will oppose involvement of authorities. Be prepared to lose them from your church. Or, alternately, preach on this matter, and pre-inform folks in your congregation of what your church would do. Let them think about how they would handle it before the pressure is on them with people they love involved.
7). Here’s the one that will have some of you shooting at me, but we need to think it through. The moral/ethical sphere and the legal sphere share some areas in common, but do not necessarily completely overlap. For example, let’s talk about the limits of responsibility of teenaged victims. On a legal level, a teenaged victim under that state’s age of consent for sexual activity is not in any way culpable for their behavior in such situations. The moral sphere is more complex. If the perpetrator stirs in their targeted teenager desires that they otherwise would not have had at that time, that is not the teenager’s fault. In the eyes of the Lord, I’m certain that the “millstone principle” applies. It is not their fault, because they are too immature to be consensual, I grant. But if a teenaged victim willingly engages in activity that they knew was morally wrong based on upbringing and moral instruction from God’s Word, at some point, realization that they are doing wrong begins. The resources of the perpetrator to manipulate them through kindness, faked love, lust, or fear, are many. The victim is not prepared to cope with those feelings; the conflict between feelings and moral responsibility frequently overwhelms them. In addition, the damage done by violated trust is deep. At this point, there are two extremes to be avoided. Extreme # 1: I place some blame on the teen, who knew God’s law, and violated it anyway. This may be what resulted in the forced public confession in the one case – if such a forced confession ever occurred. Personally, I would have apologized for her being pregnant, stating that she had been victimized, rather than expecting her to “confess”. Extreme # 2: I accept the “victimization” mantra of modern society, pack the child off to a counselor, and wash my hands of the matter, completely ignoring the profound pastoral implications of the complex moral, emotional, and ethical dilemma forced on this teenager at way too early an age. This is ALWAYS a mistake.
The proper response will not only do all the things we all know should be done (i.e. notification of authorities, notification of any uninvolved parents/guardians, advise and assist with counseling matters, sensitive revelation to church leadership and/or membership as necessary, removal of church personnel involved in perpetrating or covering, review of church policies that may have been insufficient in such matters). The proper approach will involve making sure that the pastoral/discipleship issues involved in the teen victims life are all addressed over time, as the teen’s recovery continues and as they can handle it. This is a process that may take years in some cases. Such issues include 1). What to do in the future when those in authority expect me / manipulate me to do the wrong thing, 2). What to do when my emotions and my conscience are in conflict, 3). What does love really mean? 4). What is God’s designed intention for sex within the loving marital relationship? 5). What does it mean that a person in leadership over me in God’s church (if this was the case) did this? 6). What does it say about our fallen world that this happened to me? 7). How can I accept that God loves me when He permitted these things to occur? 8). What has this event done to me, and in what way can I use it for good in the future? 9). Distinguishing between suspicion, hearsay, testimony, and fact when someone is accused of something in the future.
Some of the above pastoral/discipleship concerns will also exist in child or pre-teen victims, to varying degrees, depending.
I’m not saying that addressing these matters is the top priority. But the matter doesn’t end with a few sessions with a psychologist. It goes on for years.
The discussion here about the New Hampshire case leads me to post some pastoral concerns:
Speaking as someone who has been in on a few of these situations, at one level or another:
1). All of us need to be very carefully planning our own policies on how we will handle these things.
2). We need to acknowledge that the victims of such treatment are understandably injured, and frequently carry scars of this injury. The result is that their interpretation of what we say and do may be anger-tinged, even if we do everything right. In fact, their interpretation WILL be different as adults than it is as the victimized child or teen. We need to accept that they may question how we handled things later, even if we do nothing wrong in how we handle them.
3). Hindsight is 20/20, and all of us will look back at how we handled these situations and realize that there was something we could have handled better.
4). Following Roland Pittman’s posts on one of the related threads, I have to share his concern that we let Biblical and Pastoral concerns guide us, rather than merely letting the modern child abuse industry’s (for lack of a better term) paradigm control our action. And no, I don’t agree with Roland’s posts in general.
5). Two times in my ministry years, I have run across cases in which a child/young teen attempted to seduce an adult. Be warned: this is not simply a case of an immoral child or young teen. Invariably, there is a molestation matter lurking in the background history somewhere. Dig, dig, dig, for the good of the kid.
6). In certain families, the “old guard” (grandparents, or even older parents) will oppose involvement of authorities. Be prepared to lose them from your church. Or, alternately, preach on this matter, and pre-inform folks in your congregation of what your church would do. Let them think about how they would handle it before the pressure is on them with people they love involved.
7). Here’s the one that will have some of you shooting at me, but we need to think it through. The moral/ethical sphere and the legal sphere share some areas in common, but do not necessarily completely overlap. For example, let’s talk about the limits of responsibility of teenaged victims. On a legal level, a teenaged victim under that state’s age of consent for sexual activity is not in any way culpable for their behavior in such situations. The moral sphere is more complex. If the perpetrator stirs in their targeted teenager desires that they otherwise would not have had at that time, that is not the teenager’s fault. In the eyes of the Lord, I’m certain that the “millstone principle” applies. It is not their fault, because they are too immature to be consensual, I grant. But if a teenaged victim willingly engages in activity that they knew was morally wrong based on upbringing and moral instruction from God’s Word, at some point, realization that they are doing wrong begins. The resources of the perpetrator to manipulate them through kindness, faked love, lust, or fear, are many. The victim is not prepared to cope with those feelings; the conflict between feelings and moral responsibility frequently overwhelms them. In addition, the damage done by violated trust is deep. At this point, there are two extremes to be avoided. Extreme # 1: I place some blame on the teen, who knew God’s law, and violated it anyway. This may be what resulted in the forced public confession in the one case – if such a forced confession ever occurred. Personally, I would have apologized for her being pregnant, stating that she had been victimized, rather than expecting her to “confess”. Extreme # 2: I accept the “victimization” mantra of modern society, pack the child off to a counselor, and wash my hands of the matter, completely ignoring the profound pastoral implications of the complex moral, emotional, and ethical dilemma forced on this teenager at way too early an age. This is ALWAYS a mistake.
The proper response will not only do all the things we all know should be done (i.e. notification of authorities, notification of any uninvolved parents/guardians, advise and assist with counseling matters, sensitive revelation to church leadership and/or membership as necessary, removal of church personnel involved in perpetrating or covering, review of church policies that may have been insufficient in such matters). The proper approach will involve making sure that the pastoral/discipleship issues involved in the teen victims life are all addressed over time, as the teen’s recovery continues and as they can handle it. This is a process that may take years in some cases. Such issues include 1). What to do in the future when those in authority expect me / manipulate me to do the wrong thing, 2). What to do when my emotions and my conscience are in conflict, 3). What does love really mean? 4). What is God’s designed intention for sex within the loving marital relationship? 5). What does it mean that a person in leadership over me in God’s church (if this was the case) did this? 6). What does it say about our fallen world that this happened to me? 7). How can I accept that God loves me when He permitted these things to occur? 8). What has this event done to me, and in what way can I use it for good in the future? 9). Distinguishing between suspicion, hearsay, testimony, and fact when someone is accused of something in the future.
Some of the above pastoral/discipleship concerns will also exist in child or pre-teen victims, to varying degrees, depending.
I’m not saying that addressing these matters is the top priority. But the matter doesn’t end with a few sessions with a psychologist. It goes on for years.
Great post, Mike. Along these lines, I wanted to share a link to a ministry that helps churches make sure their policies and plans are robust enough to truly protect against abuse in today’s society. This ministry also helps churches when something like this comes up, counseling them how to handle the scenario.
http://www.netgrace.org/ http://www.netgrace.org/
You can also listen to an informative interview of the director of this ministry, Basyle ’Boz’ Tchividjian, here:
http://reformedcast.com/2010/11/15/episode-10-abuse-in-the-christian-en… http://reformedcast.com/2010/11/15/episode-10-abuse-in-the-christian-en…
http://www.netgrace.org/ http://www.netgrace.org/
You can also listen to an informative interview of the director of this ministry, Basyle ’Boz’ Tchividjian, here:
http://reformedcast.com/2010/11/15/episode-10-abuse-in-the-christian-en… http://reformedcast.com/2010/11/15/episode-10-abuse-in-the-christian-en…
Striving for the unity of the faith, for the glory of God ~ Eph. 4:3, 13; Rom. 15:5-7 I blog at Fundamentally Reformed. Follow me on Twitter.
Child Lures Prevention- http://childluresprevention.com/
What so often happens with this topic (and others that are emotionally charged) is that what is not in dispute gets lumped in with what is being debated and then arguments are offered against the former and folks act like they’ve made a case against the latter.
So I have a bowl of apples. I toss in a rotten potato. Then I point out that the potato stinks and argue passionately (preferably in all caps) that apples are obviously terrible things, fruit baskets are pure evil, and all fruit basket makers should go to the salt mines?
Nobody here is saying that 15 yr old gals are entirely, or even mostly, to blame for sex with middle aged guys.
One more… a few have even had the audacity to wonder if modern social science ought to be where we get are interpretive grid for these matters.
But I would never ask that question. It’s not proper to be curious about things like that.
So I have a bowl of apples. I toss in a rotten potato. Then I point out that the potato stinks and argue passionately (preferably in all caps) that apples are obviously terrible things, fruit baskets are pure evil, and all fruit basket makers should go to the salt mines?
Nobody here is saying that 15 yr old gals are entirely, or even mostly, to blame for sex with middle aged guys.
- Some have questioned whether guilt is really an all-or-nothing thing in every case.
- Others have questioned whether maturity necessarily conforms to the law and children suddenly become adults at midnight on the eve of their 18th birthdays.
- A few have even wondered if maybe they were accused of a crime or of covering one up, they’d prefer to be seen as innocent until proven guilty.
One more… a few have even had the audacity to wonder if modern social science ought to be where we get are interpretive grid for these matters.
But I would never ask that question. It’s not proper to be curious about things like that.
Views expressed are always my own and not my employer's, my church's, my family's, my neighbors', or my pets'. The house plants have authorized me to speak for them, however, and they always agree with me.
If I were one of the apples, I’d be pretty anxious to get the rotten potato out of my bowl and away from us other “good apples.”
The premise that we struggle with is who is at fault here and who shares part of the guilt. From the victim’s standpoint, to even have a hint of blame is horribly traumatizing. Because, the abuser often grooms the victim and will tell the victim that it is her fault — that she wanted it etc. And, it reinforces the trauma when outside people start to question, oh, did she have just a little part in it. Maybe she knew it was wrong and didn’t stop or didn’t tell someone or horror of horrors — did she enjoy it? I know you think I’m way off base. But, I STILL sense an underlying current of blaming Tina for what happened. Do you men have daughters? Do you realize that (yes, even if this society) a fifteen year old girl is still a child? It doesn’t matter how she dressed. She could have been half naked parading town and it still would not be her fault that she was raped. A man has the choice whether to lust after a woman or not. He has a choice. Have you guys SEEN the pictures of Tina from this situation. She wore ankle length jumpers. JUMPERS! I am sorry, but you can’t be seductive to a guy wearing that. It doesn’t matter what a girl wears, a guy can choose to see what he was. He can still undress her with his eyes and let his brain go to the far reaches of depravity.
If this was an isolated incidence, then maybe I might view it is one angry victim with a vendetta. But, this is not isolated. It happens a lot. We need to stop playing mind games and trying to pass the buck. Who cares if he handled it slightly right, but not perfect. Let’s stop and admit, someone dropped the ball here. Let’s learn from this and make sure it never happens. Key item #1 no matter the age of the victim, she has not a single ounce of fault at all. None. Key item #2 support the victim and her/or HIS family Key item #3 report it and make sure you do everything you can to assist the police investigation and encourage justice.
So, because someone has been hurt by abuse and how it was handled, we should disbelieve what they say because oh, their interpretation is off. Um, excuse me. If we are truly pastors who desire to shepherd our flock and guide them, we need to listen and see if there are areas that we have failed. Listen with a desire to grow/change from what may have occurred. Yes, most abuse victims are passionate. They have to be. In order to survive this kind of trauma, they must overcome insurmountable odds. Don’t judge them simply because they have a strong personality.
Yes, hindsight is 20/20. Let’s learn from history and not make the same mistakes. Let’s not be so protective and afraid to admit error. We need to learn from the ABWE handling of their situation. They admitted wrong and were humble. That will go a long ways towards allowing closure for those victims. Did Dr. Phelps handle the situation perfectly. If he did, then we not be having this conversation. Let’s use this as a good thing. A growing thing in our lives and churches.
It is not your place to determine what part the girl had in it. Whether she morally knew it was wrong or not. Discussing this kind of trauma is horrific to relive. And, many pastors feel it is necessary for them to basically interrogate the girl to find out exactly what happened. That is not your place. Your job is to report it to the authorities, provide the girl counseling and be a support to her. This is not the time to cast judgment, because oh, you should have known better.
I know you are probably just tuning me out here. But, I beg of you, listen and be willing at least in your own heart to admit that we fail miserably in our treatment of abuse victims. And, I have no intentions of destroying anyone, I simply want to see this maltreatment end. Jesus loves the broken and the hurting. His churches should to.
So, because someone has been hurt by abuse and how it was handled, we should disbelieve what they say because oh, their interpretation is off. Um, excuse me. If we are truly pastors who desire to shepherd our flock and guide them, we need to listen and see if there are areas that we have failed. Listen with a desire to grow/change from what may have occurred. Yes, most abuse victims are passionate. They have to be. In order to survive this kind of trauma, they must overcome insurmountable odds. Don’t judge them simply because they have a strong personality.
Yes, hindsight is 20/20. Let’s learn from history and not make the same mistakes. Let’s not be so protective and afraid to admit error. We need to learn from the ABWE handling of their situation. They admitted wrong and were humble. That will go a long ways towards allowing closure for those victims. Did Dr. Phelps handle the situation perfectly. If he did, then we not be having this conversation. Let’s use this as a good thing. A growing thing in our lives and churches.
It is not your place to determine what part the girl had in it. Whether she morally knew it was wrong or not. Discussing this kind of trauma is horrific to relive. And, many pastors feel it is necessary for them to basically interrogate the girl to find out exactly what happened. That is not your place. Your job is to report it to the authorities, provide the girl counseling and be a support to her. This is not the time to cast judgment, because oh, you should have known better.
I know you are probably just tuning me out here. But, I beg of you, listen and be willing at least in your own heart to admit that we fail miserably in our treatment of abuse victims. And, I have no intentions of destroying anyone, I simply want to see this maltreatment end. Jesus loves the broken and the hurting. His churches should to.
[Anna Walker] The premise that we struggle with is who is at fault here and who shares part of the guilt. From the victim’s standpoint, to even have a hint of blame is horribly traumatizing. Because, the abuser often grooms the victim and will tell the victim that it is her fault — that she wanted it etc. And, it reinforces the trauma when outside people start to question, oh, did she have just a little part in it. Maybe she knew it was wrong and didn’t stop or didn’t tell someone or horror of horrors — did she enjoy it? I know you think I’m way off base. But, I STILL sense an underlying current of blaming Tina for what happened. Do you men have daughters? Do you realize that (yes, even if this society) a fifteen year old girl is still a child? It doesn’t matter how she dressed. She could have been half naked parading town and it still would not be her fault that she was raped. A man has the choice whether to lust after a woman or not. He has a choice. Have you guys SEEN the pictures of Tina from this situation. She wore ankle length jumpers. JUMPERS! I am sorry, but you can’t be seductive to a guy wearing that. It doesn’t matter what a girl wears, a guy can choose to see what he was. He can still undress her with his eyes and let his brain go to the far reaches of depravity.
I don’t think it is fair or reasonable to attempt to interpret an ‘underlying current’ on an internet forum. It is very close to violating the Comment Policy, which prohibits assigning motives or focusing negatively on the participants in the threads. Let’s stick to the issues.
NONE of us here have enough accurate, verifiable information to determine who did what and why. For instance, Willis admitted to social workers that he was the father. Those social workers knew that Willis was 14 years older than Tina, so why didn’t they do something?
I would like to point out that it is not wise to completely remove the fact that our behaviors place us at risk. There is an element of responsibility we all have to not do things that are unwise or endanger us in some way. We teach our children how to avoid risky situations, such as not going into bathrooms alone, or getting into someone’s car. We can say all day long that it isn’t the child’s fault that they were abducted because they got into a stranger’s car, but if they have been taught not to get into a stranger’s car, at what point do we say without igniting a firestorm of hysteria that the child was responsible for that act of disobedience?
I dont want to rehash what I said last year. but I will say a couple of things. I don’t disagree with Aaron and Mike that it is possible for a consensual physical relationship can develope between a teen and an adult. I don’t disagree that it would be sin by both parties. Now let’s assume that is what happened here (full disclosure, I don’t believe that). What bothered me fromt he beginning is that the adult in the situation was treated with kid gloves and the teen was dealt with more harshly. I will take Phelps at his word that he reported it. But I can see no reason why he was still a member in good standing and she was sent away. I can see no scenario where that was God-honoring and to me it smells very badly. I have other thoughts about this but I expressed them before, no need to again. You have a question, messege me.
I will also say what I said on the ABWE thread. How ABWE has responded recently is a good start. I think had Chuck Phelps done the same thing a year ago when this scandal broke, we probably would not be seeing a 20/20 special air about this - at least not the Tina Anderson angle
I will also say what I said on the ABWE thread. How ABWE has responded recently is a good start. I think had Chuck Phelps done the same thing a year ago when this scandal broke, we probably would not be seeing a 20/20 special air about this - at least not the Tina Anderson angle
Roger Carlson, Pastor Berean Baptist Church
[Anna Walker] The premise that we struggle with is who is at fault here and who shares part of the guilt. From the victim’s standpoint, to even have a hint of blame is horribly traumatizing. Because, the abuser often grooms the victim and will tell the victim that it is her fault — that she wanted it etc. And, it reinforces the trauma when outside people start to question, oh, did she have just a little part in it. Maybe she knew it was wrong and didn’t stop or didn’t tell someone or horror of horrors — did she enjoy it? I know you think I’m way off base. But, I STILL sense an underlying current of blaming Tina for what happened. Do you men have daughters? Do you realize that (yes, even if this society) a fifteen year old girl is still a child? It doesn’t matter how she dressed. She could have been half naked parading town and it still would not be her fault that she was raped. A man has the choice whether to lust after a woman or not. He has a choice. Have you guys SEEN the pictures of Tina from this situation. She wore ankle length jumpers. JUMPERS! I am sorry, but you can’t be seductive to a guy wearing that. It doesn’t matter what a girl wears, a guy can choose to see what he was. He can still undress her with his eyes and let his brain go to the far reaches of depravity.
Anna-
That’s a very, very serious charge, and I’d like to see proof that anyone here has ever alleged any such thing.
"Our task today is to tell people — who no longer know what sin is...no longer see themselves as sinners, and no longer have room for these categories — that Christ died for sins of which they do not think they’re guilty." - David Wells
Susan,
So if a child goes into a bathroom alone and is abducted or molested, you think they should be counseled about there sin? I am not comfortable with that. But before we even get to that point (not even sure that I would ever get to that point), we focus on the criminal brought to justice!
Let’s get away from this case and think in the abstract. I find out a teen and a man in my church are in a relationship, I bring him in first. He is there when I call the police cheif, whom I know personally. He waits until he is arrested. If he runs I tell Mike (Cheif) where I think he went. Then bring the girl in. If she “consented” on some level, that will be dealt with down the road. But you have to prioritize, and help her and see that she gets the help she needs for the abuse that took place. Let’s face it, in most of these situations the adult (whether male or female) was in a position of leadership. So these kids were doubly abused, and that is the first thing to be dealt with.
So if a child goes into a bathroom alone and is abducted or molested, you think they should be counseled about there sin? I am not comfortable with that. But before we even get to that point (not even sure that I would ever get to that point), we focus on the criminal brought to justice!
Let’s get away from this case and think in the abstract. I find out a teen and a man in my church are in a relationship, I bring him in first. He is there when I call the police cheif, whom I know personally. He waits until he is arrested. If he runs I tell Mike (Cheif) where I think he went. Then bring the girl in. If she “consented” on some level, that will be dealt with down the road. But you have to prioritize, and help her and see that she gets the help she needs for the abuse that took place. Let’s face it, in most of these situations the adult (whether male or female) was in a position of leadership. So these kids were doubly abused, and that is the first thing to be dealt with.
Roger Carlson, Pastor Berean Baptist Church
I would also say that we have seen a documented history of such abuse as being fairly common among IFB churches. Let’s admit that. We can throw stones at the Roman Catholics but tend to avoid admitting this ugly fact about our own group.
The preacher as “man of God” teaching, the emphasis on authority and control, the lack of openness by church leaders, often no accountability for senior pastors, no denominational checks and balances, a persecution mindset and remnant mentality, a tendency toward externals and legalism, emphasis on coporeal punishment — all this can combine to make IFB churches susceptible to such abuse. We need to admit that and work to safeguard our churches from this.
Yes 20/20 will overstate the case but don’t kid yourself into thinking that there isn’t some level of a case to be made that there is a very large problem in this area.
The preacher as “man of God” teaching, the emphasis on authority and control, the lack of openness by church leaders, often no accountability for senior pastors, no denominational checks and balances, a persecution mindset and remnant mentality, a tendency toward externals and legalism, emphasis on coporeal punishment — all this can combine to make IFB churches susceptible to such abuse. We need to admit that and work to safeguard our churches from this.
Yes 20/20 will overstate the case but don’t kid yourself into thinking that there isn’t some level of a case to be made that there is a very large problem in this area.
Striving for the unity of the faith, for the glory of God ~ Eph. 4:3, 13; Rom. 15:5-7 I blog at Fundamentally Reformed. Follow me on Twitter.
[Bob Hayton] I would also say that we have seen a documented history of such abuse as being fairly common among IFB churches. Let’s admit that. We can throw stones at the Roman Catholics but tend to avoid admitting this ugly fact about our own group.Well said, Bob. Sadly, sex scandals have been all too common in the IFB movement and we need to address the root cause.
The preacher as “man of God” teaching, the emphasis on authority and control, the lack of openness by church leaders, often no accountability for senior pastors, no denominational checks and balances, a persecution mindset and remnant mentality, a tendency toward externals and legalism, emphasis on coporeal punishment — all this can combine to make IFB churches susceptible to such abuse. We need to admit that and work to safeguard our churches from this.
Yes 20/20 will overstate the case but don’t kid yourself into thinking that there isn’t some level of a case to be made that there is a very large problem in this area.
[rogercarlson] Susan,
So if a child goes into a bathroom alone and is abducted or molested, you think they should be counseled about there sin? I am not comfortable with that. But before we even get to that point (not even sure that I would ever get to that point), we focus on the criminal brought to justice!
The example I gave was getting into a car. I have directed my children on multiple occasions that there is NO WAY they are to get into a car with ANYONE without looking into my God-given eyeballs and asking for permission. They also know that my dh and I do not use other people to give them directives. They have cell phones as well, and so always have the ability to ask us about anything they are unsure of. SO, having said all that, if they get into a car with someone in disobedience to clearly stated and understood commands, that action, and that action alone, is their sin. They are not responsible for the actions of others.
So ok- let’s take the bathroom scenario. I’ve make it my job as a parent to not put my young kids in the position of so desperately needing to use the facilities that they feel compelled to go alone. If I ever do so, then I’ll take the blame for what happens. But if they’ve been told not to go to the bathroom in a public place alone, and they defy that order when they have other options, and they are abducted or molested, they are not only going to get counseling about dealing with the attack, but about the disobedience that placed them at risk.
To use Anne’s example, if a girl runs around naked, she is not responsible for the actions of the man who rapes her, but since she knows that she shouldn’t run around naked, she is responsible for that sin.
And the facts are- some actions place us at risk. We are each responsible for our own actions, and if we engage in risky behavior- driving to fast, walking down a dark alley alone wearing a Rolex, having unprotected sex, or jumping off the garage roof with a trash bag parachute- we increase our odds of experiencing an unpleasant consequence of those actions.
If, however, you are hit by a car while sitting in your living room eating Doritos and watching Dancing with the Stars, you have not done anything to place yourself at risk of being the victim of vehicular manslaughter. You are simply guilty of bad taste in television viewing.
Susan, do you realize that most instances of rape and molestation occur by someone the child knows. A situation where the child is not knowingly putting themselves into a risky situation. A situation where the child has no control over what happens. What about incest? I don’t care how that child is dressed or what rules that child may or may not have broken, incest occurs even in the best of homes. There is nothing a child could do to encourage it to occur or to prevent it from occurring. Even teaching your child to not let someone touch you, won’t prevent it from occurring. The child can tell you after the fact, but a child is by its very nature unable to fight off an adult. A child telling a wannabe child molester no, will not actually stop the act from occurring. So, incest is huge. What about a teacher? Or, pastor? Or babysitter? People that the child knows and is told to obey and respect. I’m sorry, but if my child is ever molested, there will no blame at all. They won’t need punishment for (in your words) their sin. Even if my child went to a public bathroom against my wishes and were molested, I will not punish them for that. BECAUSE, they are already being punished. They are facing the consequences of their actions the rest of their life. There is no need to further damage an already shattered child by punishing them more.
Discussion