By SharperIron Feb 27 2013 Social JusticeEvangelical LeftShane ClaiborneChristians Should Recover Biblical Grace, Shane Claiborne Says 1579 reads There are 6 Comments WOW Chip Van Emmerik - Wed, 02/27/2013 - 7:20am He used the examples of King David and Saul (Paul before he became a follower of Jesus Christ) from scripture to illustrate the power of grace. David already had seven wives when he used deception to murder Bathsheba's husband. Yet, even David was not beyond redemption, Claiborne noted. "Even if you have seven wives and try to kill someone, the Bible is good news." And to think, David was a man after God's own heart before "redemption." Who knew? Me thinks Claiborne needs to recover biblical grace from the same God who decreed the death penalty, exercised the death penalty (both spiritually and physically) and will return in judgement. Why is it that my voice always seems to be loudest when I am saying the dumbest things? Assumptions Aaron Blumer - Wed, 02/27/2013 - 11:21am A problem with many of evangelical left perspective (as with people in general) is unexamined assumptions. If you assume that fire arms and death penalty are incompatible with "grace," it saves you the trouble of proving it. Or if you assume that weapons exist only for bad people to do bad things or that all killing is morally wrong, etc. Saves the trouble of proving that and then you only have to prove that "grace" is good (guns, executions = bad; grace = good; ergo, guns, executions are not of grace). But it's a really, really old idea: one of the ways you attach value to something is by what you do to punish violations of it. Gen. 9 reasons that because life is so valuable, murder is a capital offense. Gun shops... should we disarm the police? They do get their guns from vendors (shops). Overrealized Kingdom Joel Shaffer - Thu, 02/28/2013 - 7:13am Claiborne motivation is Is. 2:4 and Micah 4:3 where the prophets anticipated a time during the last days when the nations will beat their swords into plowshares and spears into pruning hooks. Since Claiborne sees the kingdom of God more "already" than the future "not yet," it makes sense for him to advocate this kind of social engineering. The problem is that he vastly underestimates the depravity of the human heart. Only when Jesus is ruling can this take place. With his overemphasis on the already aspect of the the kingdom, I wonder how he explains Joel 3:10, where in the last days the nations are beating their plowshares and pruning hooks into swords and spears? Maybe... Aaron Blumer - Fri, 03/01/2013 - 9:12am SALT/SALTII? Somehow not what I picture when I read Joel 3.... Gun shops... should we disarm Joel Shaffer - Fri, 03/01/2013 - 10:28am Gun shops... should we disarm the police? They do get their guns from vendors (shops). There are those on the extreme left that believe the police should be disarmed. Over ten years ago, a justice task force was appointed by the Mayor of Grand Rapids. Disarming the police and calling them "peace officers" was one of the recommendations, along with a ridiculous progressive tax that would significantly redistribute wealth by not allowing anyone to make over 100,000 per year, and getting rid of lawn mowers and replacing them with goats....If you don't believe me, here is the link. Its from 2000 so its old, but still around. Not a single recommendation has been implemented...... http://radiantjustice.tripod.com/index2.html I believe those who were on this task force were mostly made up of community organizers (many of whom get paid by government institutions) within Grand Rapids. Wow Aaron Blumer - Sun, 03/03/2013 - 9:57pm California in Michigan. Next it'll be Texas.