Pew: Key findings about COVID-19 restrictions that affected religious groups around the world in 2020
“Religious groups criticized government-mandated public health measures in 54 countries (27% of all analyzed), often stating the rules were a violation of religious freedom.” - Pew
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[Mark_Smith]The mass of believers who claim that not getting the COVID vaccine is a “religious belief” is the main reason I didn’t attend live church for 2 years…
Remembering back, it seems to me you disagreed with any reason for not getting vaccinated. There are plenty of us who didn’t want the vaccination but to the best of our understanding had no clear biblical grounds to be able to claim a conscience objection. With the benefit of hindsight, it seems like those who were able to avoid it didn’t miss much and may indeed have made the wiser choice in doing so.
However, even though I found no biblical grounds for conscientious objection that didn’t mean that other believers didn’t find such. I can judge only my own conscience on this, not theirs.
Dave Barnhart
So you just say, “that’s against my religious convictions” and you get off scot free? Is that the way it works?
Sort of like the guy who says, “I’m a girl,” so he can then swim on the girls team?
No. No. And No.
I know you are Canadian and you tell us things work a little different there. This has been hashed out over and over again both in common discourse and in courts. In America, we do not have “Christian freedom” but religious freedom. It is for all. No Bible verse is needed. If you are interested, you can research how religious freedom works here. If not, no big deal. But there’s actually a legal doctrine and the application of that doctrine in courts about how it is used and how it plays out.
[dcbii] With the benefit of hindsight, it seems like those who were able to avoid it didn’t miss much and may indeed have made the wiser choice in doing so.Well, I know of four people who died who probably would not have if they had been fully vaccinated. The vaccine wasn’t perfect, likely due to the complications of the mutating virus, but it did save lives. Here are some stats from March 2022 from Scientific American.
[AndyE]Well, I know of four people who died who probably would not have if they had been fully vaccinated. The vaccine wasn’t perfect, likely due to the complications of the mutating virus, but it did save lives. Here are some stats from March 2022 from Scientific American.
I knew a few church members who died. They refused the vaccine because of the crazy ideas being circulated by religious leaders and conservative politicians. They thought they were standing up to tyranny, when all they did was leave children behind without parents.
[AndyE]Well, I know of four people who died who probably would not have if they had been fully vaccinated. The vaccine wasn’t perfect, likely due to the complications of the mutating virus, but it did save lives. Here are some stats from March 2022 from Scientific American.
I’m not saying it saved no lives. However, it clearly has caused other problems as well (myocarditis being only one obvious example). I’m not anti-vaccine in any way, but I also oppose the idea of vaccination mandates, especially when people are claiming a highly experimental vaccine with possibly fatal side-effects MUST be taken for the benefit of others, rather than the one being vaccinated.
Dave Barnhart
[Larry]So you just say, “that’s against my religious convictions” and you get off scot free? Is that the way it works?
Sort of like the guy who says, “I’m a girl,” so he can then swim on the girls team?
No. No. And No.
I know you are Canadian and you tell us things work a little different there. This has been hashed out over and over again both in common discourse and in courts. In America, we do not have “Christian freedom” but religious freedom. It is for all. No Bible verse is needed. If you are interested, you can research how religious freedom works here. If not, no big deal. But there’s actually a legal doctrine and the application of that doctrine in courts about how it is used and how it plays out.
Larry, you said this earlier, to which I am reacting:
If the individual made a religious conscience claim about taking the vaccine, it is a religious liberty issue. I am not sure why, after almost three years, this is still being disputed.
My reaction has nothing to do with being a Canadian.
But simply making a claim doesn’t make it a religious liberty issue. There must be something, objective, outside of a mere claim, to make it an issue.
Of those making the claim regarding the Covid vaccine, most have no objective basis for making the claim. There is no Bible verse, really, that supports it. The claims of some preachers to teach it doesn’t make it valid.
Those who have consistently refused ALL vaccines might be able to make an objective case that can be tested in court, if it came to that. But simply making a claim, as you suggest in the part quoted, isn’t sufficient.
It isn’t as cut and dried as you suggest. The Rastas used to claim (in America) religious freedom for smoking marijuana. I don’t recall the details, but I don’t think that worked out so well back then. Maybe someone remembers that better than me.
As for your anti-Canadian hostility, I think I should claim racism or something. At last I am a victim!
Maranatha!
Don Johnson
Jer 33.3
[dcbii]Remembering back, it seems to me you disagreed with any reason for not getting vaccinated. There are plenty of us who didn’t want the vaccination but to the best of our understanding had no clear biblical grounds to be able to claim a conscience objection. With the benefit of hindsight, it seems like those who were able to avoid it didn’t miss much and may indeed have made the wiser choice in doing so.
However, even though I found no biblical grounds for conscientious objection that didn’t mean that other believers didn’t find such. I can judge only my own conscience on this, not theirs.
If you don’t want to get vaccinated… don’t. But don’t say it’s “for religious reasons” or “because the vaccine wasn’t safe” or “because COVID is a fake illness brought on by Fauci to control the world…” or some other equally ridiculous reason. Just say I didn’t want to get vaccinated.
But simply making a claim doesn’t make it a religious liberty issue. There must be something, objective, outside of a mere claim, to make it an issue.
There is a process and standard in our judicial system for this. And a large part of it is making the claim. And the primary factor is “sincerely held.” See here: https://www.eeoc.gov/laws/guidance/section-12-religious-discrimination#…
Religious claims, almost by their very nature, are subjective not objective. That’s why some people believe one thing and some people another. And it doesn’t have to be “objective” per se. The standard heavily relies on “sincerely held.”
Of those making the claim regarding the Covid vaccine, most have no objective basis for making the claim. There is no Bible verse, really, that supports it. The claims of some preachers to teach it doesn’t make it valid.
How can you possibly know this? How many of these objectors have you talked to? And observed their religious convictions at work in their lives? And how do you know that your standard is the objective one and not theirs?
To say that there is no Bible verse that supports it is a comment on your religious convictions. But your religious convictions aren’t the standard for anyone but you. It also has nothing to do with religious freedom claims since religious freedom isn’t only for Christians; it is also for those who reject the Bible.
It also ignores the long held principle of some Christians that the body is a temple (1 Cor 6) and that teaches people to not put certain things in their body. Again, you don’t have to agree (but you aren’t much of a fundamentalist if you haven’t heard that verse used to object to alcohol, drugs, gluttony, nicotine, etc.) It has regularly and consistently been used to talk about what we put in our bodies. To extend that to one or more vaccines is hardly a stretch. And there are numerous reasons why one might get some vaccines and not others.
The question is, Do you believe that 1 Cor 6:18 and the body as a temple has any reference to what we put in our bodies or how we treat them?
If so, then it seems to have to acknowledge there is a biblical basis even if you disagree with it.
It isn’t as cut and dried as you suggest.
I didn’t suggest it was cut and dried as a legal matter. Here again is some reading that might be helpful: https://www.eeoc.gov/laws/guidance/section-12-religious-discrimination#…
This outlines the legal issues and defines the various terms and issues. The bottom line is that you don’t have to be consistent necessarily, no one else has to hold it, the court isn’t in the business of deciding if the belief is legitimate, etc.
As for your anti-Canadian hostility, I think I should claim racism or something. At last I am a victim!
I have no Canadian hostility. Some of my friends are Canadian.
is about sexual immorality and how having sex with people you aren’t married to is a sin and since sex involves the body, the sin impacts the temple of the Holy Spirit for the believer, which is the body.
These verses have nothing to do with food eaten, vaccines taken, or medicine. It’s about sex. Period.
[Mark_Smith]If you don’t want to get vaccinated… don’t. But don’t say it’s “for religious reasons” or “because the vaccine wasn’t safe” or “because COVID is a fake illness brought on by Fauci to control the world…” or some other equally ridiculous reason. Just say I didn’t want to get vaccinated.
Emphasis above mine.
It’s probably a waste of time to hash this out in this thread, particularly because it was already done about two years ago. However, I will point out that the long-term safety of the vaccine has yet to be proven, and there have been enough short-term side effects to cause people to make a (completely reasonable, IMHO) rough personal calculation as to whether the vaccine or Covid is more dangerous. Simply claiming that “the vaccine is safe” is not proof, and convinces no one with any sense. Evidence is required, and as of right now, I’d say the available evidence is ambivalent, at best. (I’m hardly the only layman, in medical terms, to make that determination, and there have been plenty of doctors and microbiologists that have come to similar conclusions.)
Dave Barnhart
These verses have nothing to do with food eaten, vaccines taken, or medicine.
So the body is the temple of the Holy Spirit but the only thing that applies to sexual immorality?
My guess is that you don’t actually believe that. The principle of ownership applies to far more than sexuality.
Again, you are welcome to your view, but religious conscience and religious objection doesn’t work that way, Mark. You don’t get to demand everyone else agree with you. Conscience belongs to the individual, not the group. And people can be wrong and still make a valid religious objection or religious conscience claim.
[Larry]These verses have nothing to do with food eaten, vaccines taken, or medicine.
So the body is the temple of the Holy Spirit but the only thing that applies to sexual immorality?
My guess is that you don’t actually believe that. The principle of ownership applies to far more than sexuality.
Again, you are welcome to your view, but religious conscience and religious objection doesn’t work that way, Mark. You don’t get to demand everyone else agree with you. Conscience belongs to the individual, not the group. And people can be wrong and still make a valid religious objection or religious conscience claim.
What are you talking about me demanding everyone agree with me? The verses say EXPLICITLY they are about sexual immorality…
If you want to extend it to other things, you have to connect the “thing” to corrupting and mixing with the Holy Spirit. With sex with a prostitute, that is easy. With illegal drugs, I think the argument can be made.
Saying a medicine is that is… sketchy at the least. How does COVID vaccine corrupt the Holy Spirit?
[dcbii]Emphasis above mine.
It’s probably a waste of time to hash this out in this thread, particularly because it was already done about two years ago. However, I will point out that the long-term safety of the vaccine has yet to be proven, and there have been enough short-term side effects to cause people to make a (completely reasonable, IMHO) rough personal calculation as to whether the vaccine or Covid is more dangerous. Simply claiming that “the vaccine is safe” is not proof, and convinces no one with any sense. Evidence is required, and as of right now, I’d say the available evidence is ambivalent, at best. (I’m hardly the only layman, in medical terms, to make that determination, and there have been plenty of doctors and microbiologists that have come to similar conclusions.)
How do you establish the “long-term safety” of any new vaccine? You can’t BY DEFINITION. That does not mean it is not safe. All kinds of other evidence showed the vaccine was safe. The “myocarditis” effect is small and little different than the lesser side effects of all vaccines. When you are facing a worldwide epidemic that killed millions of people, that risk is small.
The problem was millions did not believe in the threat of the virus. That was the real problem.
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Once it became clear that the vaccines didn’t halt transmission or prevent infection to any meaningful degree (merely reducing severity of symptoms), any mandate or requirement became govt overreach.
The govt has no right to dictate your personal health decisions.
Many countries around the world still have these requirements in place, even if the US does not. And at G20 recently, there was much talk of building a robust, worldwide and integrated global health infrastructure that would ultimately check freedom of movement in a manner not so different from China’s system.
If you don’t find this alarming, not sure what to say.
[dgszweda]Note the title of the original piece is “around the world,” not just in the US. I can’t speak to the US because I know longer live there, but…What are some cases, in your opinion, reflect how the government appears to have held on to power? The items you listed are lingering affects of what took place a year or two ago. I am not seeing the government fining churches today, forcing churches to close or restricting religious gatherings. But I could be missing something.
I can confirm to you that officially at least (though often not enforced in practice), in many areas in Asia, governments still require 1) scanning an app to show vaccination + booster status before entering any public place, including churches (this includes children); 2) require physical distancing and limit the number of congregants; 3) require face masks at all times during worship.
Let’s not even talk about how covid has been used as a club against both house and Three-Self churches in China.
This despite the fact that covid cases are down, many regions still haven’t rescinded those powers. I don’t know when they’re finally going to release restrictions, but I for one have grown very weary of them. We’re past the emergency state and we know we have to live with covid, so yes, these are indeed onerous religious liberty restrictions that need to go.
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