Steve Pettit and the Skillman family
[Jay]Can you provide any biblical justification for this kind of test and your determination that it is a fair test of our position?Well, since Rajesh is convinced that the tune of songs is the issue (among other things), I will open up the challenge that I put forth to Don for him, Michael Riley, or anyone else. I will pick a couple of instrumental tracks off of albums, and they can give us an objective, Scripturally based reason for why it is or is not appropriate for worship. Since they won’t know the words or the artists, this should be the closest we can get to a blind but fair test of their position.
[Kevin Miller]Here is additional biblical data that directly pertains:Yes, they brought different items. You tell me I must account for this information, but then you stop without explaining how to account for this information in regards to music. God doesn’t give the information in Genesis 4 regarding His instructions. God doesn’t tell us whether Cain and Abel were forbidden from bringing certain types of animals as offerings. It’s unknown. God doesn’t tell us in the New Testament if we are forbidden from bringing certain genres of music. The specifics just aren’t there. I was pretty sure i covered that in my post. How do you propose we account for information that isn’t given to us?
Genesis 3:17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;
I encourage you to postpone trying to make applications to our music practices until you have thoroughly treated the biblical data about God’s rejection of Cain and his worship.
[RajeshG]I actually chuckled out loud when I read this post. It’s just so completely backward. Rajesh, you and others want to bind the consciences of Christians with a specific music standard, but when challenged to provide biblical defense, you say, “Well prove from the Bible that Christians SHOULDN’T have that standard!”Jay wrote:
Well, since Rajesh is convinced that the tune of songs is the issue (among other things), I will open up the challenge that I put forth to Don for him, Michael Riley, or anyone else. I will pick a couple of instrumental tracks off of albums, and they can give us an objective, Scripturally based reason for why it is or is not appropriate for worship. Since they won’t know the words or the artists, this should be the closest we can get to a blind but fair test of their position.
Can you provide any biblical justification for this kind of test and your determination that it is a fair test of our position?
?????
That’s like me saying it is wrong for you to use the King James Version when quoting Scripture on Sharper Iron, and then when you challenge me to provide the biblical justification for my attempt to condemn you in that way, I respond by saying, “Well, prove from Scripture that I SHOULDN’T hold you to that standard!” No, I’m the one creating the rule, so I’m the one who needs to justify it from Scripture.
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Greg Long, Ed.D. (SBTS)
Pastor of Adult Ministries
Grace Church, Des Moines, IA
Adjunct Instructor
School of Divinity
Liberty University
[RajeshG]Jay wrote:
Well, since Rajesh is convinced that the tune of songs is the issue (among other things), I will open up the challenge that I put forth to Don for him, Michael Riley, or anyone else. I will pick a couple of instrumental tracks off of albums, and they can give us an objective, Scripturally based reason for why it is or is not appropriate for worship. Since they won’t know the words or the artists, this should be the closest we can get to a blind but fair test of their position.
Can you provide any biblical justification for this kind of test and your determination that it is a fair test of our position?
2 Timothy 3:16-17, for starters. Really, Rajesh, your zeal for the purity of the church is laudable; your apparent willingness to do so without consulting the Scriptures about the matter is not. If the Scriptures are demonstrably silent on a matter, shouldn’t we be, too?
Aspiring to be a stick in the mud.
[Jay]Well, since Rajesh is convinced that the tune of songs is the issue (among other things), I will open up the challenge that I put forth to Don for him, Michael Riley, or anyone else. I will pick a couple of instrumental tracks off of albums, and they can give us an objective, Scripturally based reason for why it is or is not appropriate for worship. Since they won’t know the words or the artists, this should be the closest we can get to a blind but fair test of their position.
Jay, I already admitted that I cannot make a biblical argument against certain music forms but you did admit that you too would disapprove of certain types of music even if the words were good. How would you define biblically what those were? We’re arguing degrees folks.
[Greg Long]It’s good to laugh … when it is warranted. You have misunderstood my response. I am not saying that biblical arguments are not needed. I was questioning the biblical justification specifically for listening to objectionable music and giving specific (musicological) analysis from explicit Bible statements as to why that music is objectionable.I actually chuckled out loud when I read this post. It’s just so completely backward. Rajesh, you and others want to bind the consciences of Christians with a specific music standard, but when challenged to provide biblical defense, you say, “Well prove from the Bible that Christians SHOULDN’T have that standard!”
?????
That’s like me saying it is wrong for you to use the King James Version when quoting Scripture on Sharper Iron, and then when you challenge me to provide the biblical justification for my attempt to condemn you in that way, I respond by saying, “Well, prove from Scripture that I SHOULDN’T hold you to that standard!” No, I’m the one creating the rule, so I’m the one who needs to justify it from Scripture.
The test that he has proposed begs the question that it is biblically appropriate to listen to any kind of music regardless of source/style/genre for the purpose of analyzing it. Unless you assume that all music is neutral and listening to any of it will not harm the listener, such a test is not a biblical way to assess the nature of music that one regards as objectionable.
[Bert Perry]Bert, I am glad that you brought up 2 Tim. 3:16-17. Now, prove from that statement that it is biblically justified to listen to any kind of music for the purpose of analyzing it even when you believe that what you would be analyzing is ungodly music.2 Timothy 3:16-17, for starters. Really, Rajesh, your zeal for the purity of the church is laudable; your apparent willingness to do so without consulting the Scriptures about the matter is not. If the Scriptures are demonstrably silent on a matter, shouldn’t we be, too?
As I said to Greg, the whole idea of such a test begs the question of the biblical appropriateness and suitability of listening to any kind of music.
[RajeshG]The test that he has proposed begs the question that it is biblically appropriate to listen to any kind of music regardless of source/style/genre for the purpose of analyzing it. Unless you assume that all music is neutral and listening to any of it will not harm the listener, such a test is not a biblical way to assess the nature of music that one regards as objectionable.
In that case, you are welcome to tell us how the pastors/leaders of Mount Calvary determine whether a piece unknown to them is appropriate, and then use *that* method to analyze two songs to show us how it’s done.
It’s amazing how this always comes down to statements from those who think like you that can be pretty easily reduced to:
“If you don’t know how to do it, you haven’t developed enough discernment. Further, I can’t demonstrate to you how to do it, and even asking me to do so is not appropriate. I just know that the way you are doing it is wrong and unbiblical.”
Is it any wonder that many here (even those who would otherwise choose similar worship music to what you would consider appropriate) are unconvinced by such rhetorical hand-waving? “I just know” and “you just don’t understand” are NOT appropriate methods for interpreting and applying scripture, let alone convincing anyone else.
Dave Barnhart
[dcbii]Dave, it is not commendable that you have jumped to conclusions about my approach to music that are wrong and have portrayed me in ways that are not accurate. I have made no claims to the effect that “I just know” and “you just don’t understand,” etc.In that case, you are welcome to tell us how the pastors/leaders of Mount Calvary determine whether a piece unknown to them is appropriate, and then use *that* method to analyze two songs to show us how it’s done.
It’s amazing how this always comes down to statements from those who think like you that can be pretty easily reduced to:
“If you don’t know how to do it, you haven’t developed enough discernment. Further, I can’t demonstrate to you how to do it, and even asking me to do so is not appropriate. I just know that the way you are doing it is wrong and unbiblical.”
Is it any wonder that many here (even those who would otherwise choose similar worship music to what you would consider appropriate) are unconvinced by such rhetorical hand-waving? “I just know” and “you just don’t understand” are NOT appropriate methods for interpreting and applying scripture, let alone convincing anyone else.
You would not want other people to treat you this way, and it’s important that you not do so with me.
Furthermore, my participation in this site is not representative of the views/approaches of the leadership of my church. I speak for only my views in my interaction on this site.
You and many others may believe that it is ok to listen to any kind of unknown music regardless of its source/genre/style. If so, all of you are entitled to hold your view. I reject that approach.
God commands us not to have any fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness (Eph. 5:11). For a person to claim that this directive does not apply to music that is sourced in the ungodly activities of people who regularly engage in occult practices (or other ungodly practices) because one believes that all music without words is neutral is to beg a very important point and to do so in a very dangerous way.
I am not going to listen to any unknown music for the purpose of analyzing it regardless of what anyone on this site or anywhere else asserts has to be done. Furthermore, having been previously immersed in rock music (including heavy metal and other genres/styles that I now consider to be ungodly) for nearly two decades prior to my conversion, I am not going to defile my spirit, soul, and body any further by listening to any more rock music or music in any derivative styles.
Rajesh, if you (or others) aren’t going to listen to any unknown music to explain how you conclude that any given tune is sinful, then how can we seriously expect to get anywhere with this conversation? What do you seriously expect of us? That we’re all going to line up to agree with you because you say it’s godly?
I’m a little dumbfounded at your expectations here. What do you expect from others on a discussion board?
I am not suggesting that we analyze the music of the world. I am talking about Christian music written for Christians for worship of our God. Yes, some of it (a lot, actually) is terrible music - poor lyrics, poor quality, poor tunes. But your position seems to be that only certain musicians are OK, and that must be carefully vetted by those who can deem it to be so. Where is there any room for the priesthood of believers, or the work of the Spirit in a person’s life?
I’m not trying to be mean to you, but I have no idea how you make any conclusions about music. Is it OK because they’ll play it at Mount Calvary or because Dr. Minnick says it is?
You and many others may believe that it is ok to listen to any kind of unknown music regardless of its source/genre/style. If so, all of you are entitled to hold your view. I reject that approach.
You clearly have no idea what these people have been saying. We differ on degrees and ideas, so there is no one yet who has admitted to listening to whatever we want “regardless of source / genre / style”. I suppose I should be offended that you seem to believe I would ask you to listen to secular rock music, but I’m long since used to those kinds of accusations.
It seems that you have several misconceptions about what people on this board believe. I think it might be good to re-read what has actually been written rather than what you think people think or what you have been taught that other people believe.
Josh P, I objected to some of the attitudes and behaviors of musicians that were playing at the time, not on the songs themselves. I’m sorry if that was confusing to you.
"Our task today is to tell people — who no longer know what sin is...no longer see themselves as sinners, and no longer have room for these categories — that Christ died for sins of which they do not think they’re guilty." - David Wells
[RajeshG]Dave, it is not commendable that you have jumped to conclusions about my approach to music that are wrong and have portrayed me in ways that are not accurate. I have made no claims to the effect that “I just know” and “you just don’t understand,” etc.
Honestly, I don’t think I was all that far off. The first part of that was pretty accurate — In response to my previous post, you basically pointed me to a message on how to develop discernment, a pretty clear implication that you didn’t think I had the discernment necessary to judge music, in response to my questions about how it’s done. What I really want is for you to explain your approach to music. So far, there’s been nothing of substance.
If you want to separate your views on music from your church fine. In that case, please explain to us how you judge music. If you can’t or won’t explain it, it does indeed distill down to “I just know” or “you don’t understand.” And disagreeing with you doesn’t mean I think “anything goes” in regard to music. In fact, my previous post, along with other posts I have made here over the years are clear that I don’t think that. However, I understand that my judgments on music are subjective, and likely a product of my upbringing and life experience. Right now, I think that’s all I can do. If there’s a better, objective way, I’d love to hear it, and be able to use it myself. Unfortunately, when pressed for details on real-life application of an objective music standard, I never get any. Just a bunch of rhetorical “hand-waving” as I called it. That was a term one of my math professors often used to describe jumping to the end of the proof while leaving out critical details.
If you can demonstrate exactly how some music is “unfruitful works of darkness,” then by all means, please do so. Your argument so far has been essentially that “it must be” (appeal to obviousness, also a fallacy) and that to believe otherwise is begging the point. I reject most rock/pop music due to the lyrics, association with performers/lifestyles etc. However, “guilt by association” isn’t proof, and it certainly isn’t a completely objective standard either, though I do use it personally, even knowing its weaknesses. It does sound like you reject such music, and it sounds as if it’s at least partially based on where you were before conversion. I actually commend your taking steps to avoid what you believe to be ungodly. However, I suspect that you use the same bases I do to make your judgments. If you claim to be able to judge the music itself, apart from the lyrics or associations, you’d have to prove that to convince me or many others here. Simply asserting it doesn’t make it so, and it’s rarely convincing, except to the already convinced.
Somewhere between music you reject out of hand and music you accept must be some music that is, for lack of a better term, questionable, or at least unknown. You must indeed hear music, and then put it into the acceptable or unacceptable bin, unless you are a musicologist, and can do so based on just the sheet music alone without hearing it. If you can judge the music without hearing it, tell us how! But even if not, explanation of your standard for judgment is really all we are asking.
No one here is asking you to defile yourself. However, the claim that your approach is the scriptural one, and all others are to be rejected is nothing more than a claim, unless you can show it to be true from scripture, and not just throw verses around as if that proves the minor premise of the syllogism. I completely get that we should reject “unfruitful works of darkness.” What you haven’t done is show how music (not lyrics or associations) that is to be rejected fits in that category. Without that step, the conclusion simply doesn’t follow, whether or not you believe it does.
Dave Barnhart
[Jay]Rajesh, if you (or others) aren’t going to listen to any unknown music to explain how you conclude that any given tune is sinful, then how can we seriously expect to get anywhere with this conversation? What do you seriously expect of us? That we’re all going to line up to agree with you because you say it’s godly?
I’m a little dumbfounded at your expectations here. What do you expect from others on a discussion board?
I am not suggesting that we analyze the music of the world. I am talking about Christian music written for Christians for worship of our God. Yes, some of it (a lot, actually) is terrible music - poor lyrics, poor quality, poor tunes. But your position seems to be that only certain musicians are OK, and that must be carefully vetted by those who can deem it to be so. Where is there any room for the priesthood of believers, or the work of the Spirit in a person’s life?
I’m not trying to be mean to you, but I have no idea how you make any conclusions about music. Is it OK because they’ll play it at Mount Calvary or because Dr. Minnick says it is?
You and many others may believe that it is ok to listen to any kind of unknown music regardless of its source/genre/style. If so, all of you are entitled to hold your view. I reject that approach.
You clearly have no idea what these people have been saying. We differ on degrees and ideas, so there is no one yet who has admitted to listening to whatever we want “regardless of source / genre / style”. I suppose I should be offended that you seem to believe I would ask you to listen to secular rock music, but I’m long since used to those kinds of accusations.
It seems that you have several misconceptions about what people on this board believe. I think it might be good to re-read what has actually been written rather than what you think people think or what you have been taught that other people believe.
Josh P, I objected to some of the attitudes and behaviors of musicians that were playing at the time, not on the songs themselves. I’m sorry if that was confusing to you.
Ok so it sounds like you are saying that a song can be sung in an inappropriate way (how else could you know their attitudes?) but the music itself cannot be inappropriate. I still think the definition question is kind of a red herring. I think I understand you better now. I’d have to go back and reread the thread but I thought you were making the argument that some types of music do not belong in a worship service in which case it was an argument of degrees. Thanks for the interaction.
No, it really had more to do with the performers than it did with the songs. It’s been a few years and I don’t remember all the specifics right now. There were several problematic behaviors that needed to be curtailed because they were distracting people from worship and putting undue focus on the musicians and their skills instead. I don’t want to get into any more specifics than that in public.
Dave, that was one of the best posts on this thread. Thank you for that.
"Our task today is to tell people — who no longer know what sin is...no longer see themselves as sinners, and no longer have room for these categories — that Christ died for sins of which they do not think they’re guilty." - David Wells
[Jay]Jay, I did not intend to offend you and apologize if I did so unintentionally.You clearly have no idea what these people have been saying. We differ on degrees and ideas, so there is no one yet who has admitted to listening to whatever we want “regardless of source / genre / style”. I suppose I should be offended that you seem to believe I would ask you to listen to secular rock music, but I’m long since used to those kinds of accusations.
I am not following your response. The “test” was going to be one of listening to just the music of some unknown song yet you say that you would not have asked me to listen to secular rock music. Are you saying that the music (without the words) of “Christian” rock (or other such styles) is somehow essentially different than the music (without the words) of its secular counterpart?
Dave,
Thanks for your detailed response. It seems that so-called “guilt by association” is a big deal to many people on this forum, but I’m still not clear exactly what that is supposed to be concerning music. My suspicion is that this so-called fallacy goes directly against what the Bible teaches in many places, but I am not sure because I do not yet understand what is meant when that terminology is used.
Discussion