Steve Pettit and the Skillman family
[Bert Perry]What you are giving me here is simply another example of a meaning related to association. I hear the march and think circus because I did not realize the composers intent and have only heard it used in circuses. You hear the march and realize the various “tone poems” are meant to make an association with gladiators, and so the moods inspired in you relate to gladiators. Which association is stronger in our current culture?Now would I use that piece for “Amazing Grace”? No, but not because of any guilt by association argument. Rather, it’s because the mood of the song is wrong. If you listen to the whole piece—it’s linked from the wiki article—you’ll also hear “tone poems” corresponding to multiple gladiators. So another reason you don’t use that piece is because it would appear to be “changing the subject” every so often, while the lyrics do not.
[Larry Nelson]Wouldn’t his be an example of a “joyful noise”? :)Now that you’re aware of it, how many here will place Amazing Grace on your forever “banned” list since Steven Tyler (Aerosmith) has
screechedsung it?:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T-s7aC0X85s
Show of hands?
Waiting………….
You guys really don’t want to seem to let go of bad logic, do you? My goodness.
To your claim, the links between musical forms—tempo, volume, resonant vs. dissonant patterns, etc..—and emotion are well established scientifically and are the bedrock for music therapy and related fields. There is no guilt by association, and really no “guilt” at all. One kind of music is simply different than another. And for that matter, even within a genre, you won’t really find that much consistency in emotive responses within specific genre, instrumentation, and techniques—let alone any correlation to sin that you cannot find elsewhere.
There are simply certain techniques that work with certain messages and emotions. Sometimes one is pensive, sometimes excited, and given that the Scriptures show examples of all of this, I am at a loss as to how you could flat out proscribe genre, instrumentation, and methods.
Aspiring to be a stick in the mud.
[Bert Perry]And WHY don’t we find much consistency in emotive responses? Could it be that each person’s emotions are triggered differently due to the different associations that they think of as they hear music? I’m not claiming that these associations make the music itself sinful in any way, and i personally have not proscribed any genre ,instrumentation, or methods, other than maybe circus music. I did mention in regards to circus music that in a Sunday morning setting, the associations with the circus would be too strong for worship to be meaningful. Do you disagree with that statement? You said you wouldn’t use the march because of the mood, but you never answered my next question about it. Which association is stronger in our current culture? Are people more likely to have a mood incited from an association to the circus or from an understanding that the song is about Roman gladiators. Is there some particular detrimental mood that is created by music that “would appear to be ‘changing the subject’ every so often”? Is that really why you wouldn’t use the piece on a Sunday morning, because people would hear the “subject changing”?And for that matter, even within a genre, you won’t really find that much consistency in emotive responses within specific genre, instrumentation, and techniques—
[Kevin Miller]My views about rap music are the same as Don Johnson and many others. There is no profit in discussing that subject when there are far more important and foundational differences in our views about what music is acceptable to God in worship.You described something being sung “in worship to God” in a certain “performance” way. You then said that the performance would result in “that music would be sinful.” So is the music itself sinful, or is the performance of the music sinful? Let me ask you about the rap song that has been referred to earlier in the thread, It has Christian lyrics, but apart from the lyrics, is it okay to use rap in church as long as you don’t sing it suggestlvely or use wicked lyrics?
[Bert Perry]No, I do not agree at all that what Marilyn Monroe did has no bearing on what we are to believe about music that pleases God in worship. To employ in divine worship the same sensual vocal techniques that she employed would be to render that music unacceptable to God.Rajesh, I am glad to see that you agree that how Ms. Monroe sang has absolutely no bearing on whether we can use modern music forms in the church. In the same way, we can find examples from every time in history where young men (and women) have learned to play an instrument or sing in such a way as to impress the opposite sex. Sometimes they did so honorably, sometimes not, but either way, it has absolutely nothing to do with whether the instruments and techniques they used are applicable elsewhere. It goes for Monroe, for Ozzy Osbourne, for Rev. Run, for David Lee Roth, and even for 2 Live Crew.
That’s the core of the argument I’m making. Guilt by association is always fallacious, always. And those who want to prove that music differs from other tools we use are going to need to make that case Biblically and Scientifically. So far, I see zero evidence.
I am fine with asking questions of whether specific arrangements and performances of specific songs succeed in communicating the Word of God to the People of God. That’s fine. There are certain techniques that are going to work, or not, in certain settings.
That said, what the “traditional music only” faction desires is not this kind of thing, but rather the wholesale rejection of instruments, genre, techniques, and such based mostly on guilt by association. It splits churches, it damages faith, it needs to end.
No, I do not agree at all that what Marilyn Monroe did has no bearing on what we are to believe about music that pleases God in worship. To employ in divine worship the same sensual vocal techniques that she employed would be to render that music unacceptable to God.
But we aren’t talking about sewing a worship leader into a dress so that she can croon a sexed up version into God’s ear.
Come on, man. There is a big difference between Marilyn Monroe’s birthday song and a worship service in a local church.
And I’m OK with people disagreeing with the use of rap music - I would not use it in a worship service either. But what is it that makes the genre “unusable”? And how does the song I referenced before fall into the “unusable” category? The fact that it’s in the rap / hip-hop genre?
I may not like something but that doesn’t mean it is unusable or evil. If so, anyone writing posts on a Mac is in sin and needs to repent now. :)
"Our task today is to tell people — who no longer know what sin is...no longer see themselves as sinners, and no longer have room for these categories — that Christ died for sins of which they do not think they’re guilty." - David Wells
[RajeshG]Okay, then forget about the rap question, though it deals with foundational differences we may have. Your refusal to answer it directly makes me wonder if you are really willing to discuss the foundational things.Kevin Miller wrote:
You described something being sung “in worship to God” in a certain “performance” way. You then said that the performance would result in “that music would be sinful.” So is the music itself sinful, or is the performance of the music sinful? Let me ask you about the rap song that has been referred to earlier in the thread, It has Christian lyrics, but apart from the lyrics, is it okay to use rap in church as long as you don’t sing it suggestlvely or use wicked lyrics?
My views about rap music are the same as Don Johnson and many others. There is no profit in discussing that subject when there are far more important and foundational differences in our views about what music is acceptable to God in worship.
Can we discuss the first question I asked in the post you just quoted?
I said - You described something being sung “in worship to God” in a certain “performance” way. You then said that the performance would result in “that music would be sinful.” So is the music itself sinful, or is the performance of the music sinful? Does a sensuous performance of “Happy Birthday” make the song itself sinful? If you are only talking about performance traits that could be corrected with a good Christian vocal coach, then you how could you say that the “music would be sinful.” It would be the performance and not the music itself.
[RajeshG]My views about rap music are the same as Don Johnson and many others. There is no profit in discussing that subject when there are far more important and foundational differences in our views about what music is acceptable to God in worship.
What I am about to say is not sarcasm or a stab at you…it is honestly said with all due respect. I’m not sure if you are a pastor or not, but if you teach on this subject, calling some music sinful, yet cannot show this from Scripture or articulate how to identify said “sinful” music, then do not be surprised if your people discount your teaching on this subject and perhaps everything else you say. The teaching on music has historically been very inept in fundamental circles, and even kids see right through it. Your answer and Don Johnson’s answer when asked to articulate how to identify sinful music is representative of what I have seen in every single conversation like this that I have ever been involved in…once it gets down to a practical means of identifying the music, we are told that there is no profit in discussing the subject, or there is no time right now to walk through that, or (as one “expert” told me) “I leave that up to the local pastor.” I have never ever ever talked to one pastor or teacher or “expert” that even attempted to articulate how to identify what music is wrong, but they were very quick to say there is some music that is sinful. This is where the rubber meets the road but it always loses traction.
[Kevin Miller]A sensuous performance of “Happy Birthday” does not make that song sinful; you obviously know the answer to that question. I have never asserted anything to the contrary.Okay, then forget about the rap question, though it deals with foundational differences we may have. Your refusal to answer it directly makes me wonder if you are really willing to discuss the foundational things.
Can we discuss the first question I asked in the post you just quoted?
I said - You described something being sung “in worship to God” in a certain “performance” way. You then said that the performance would result in “that music would be sinful.” So is the music itself sinful, or is the performance of the music sinful? Does a sensuous performance of “Happy Birthday” make the song itself sinful? If you are only talking about performance traits that could be corrected with a good Christian vocal coach, then you how could you say that the “music would be sinful.” It would be the performance and not the music itself.
When Cain attempted to worship God in a sinful way, this is what the Bible says about what he did:
Genesis 4:5 But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell.
God rejected both Cain and what he offered to God. God does not parse carefully that he accepted certain aspects of what Cain did but accepted others.
In the scenario that you are interested about, following biblical precedent, I would say God would reject the person who offers that sinful worship music and the music in its totality as a composite audio package.
[RickyHorton]I appreciate your taking care not to offend me or misjudge my motives or views, as at least one other person has done more than once. The subject is a very vast, complex, and difficult subject that cannot be treated with any thoroughness in a setting such as this. When I minister to people on this subject, there is a vast amount of biblical truth that I share with them to help them understand what God wants them to know.What I am about to say is not sarcasm or a stab at you…it is honestly said with all due respect. I’m not sure if you are a pastor or not, but if you teach on this subject, calling some music sinful, yet cannot show this from Scripture or articulate how to identify said “sinful” music, then do not be surprised if your people discount your teaching on this subject and perhaps everything else you say. The teaching on music has historically been very inept in fundamental circles, and even kids see right through it. Your answer and Don Johnson’s answer when asked to articulate how to identify sinful music is representative of what I have seen in every single conversation like this that I have ever been involved in…once it gets down to a practical means of identifying the music, we are told that there is no profit in discussing the subject, or there is no time right now to walk through that, or (as one “expert” told me) “I leave that up to the local pastor.” I have never ever ever talked to one pastor or teacher or “expert” that even attempted to articulate how to identify what music is wrong, but they were very quick to say there is some music that is sinful. This is where the rubber meets the road but it always loses traction.
There are many resources available for you to understand such teaching.
[Jay]She could have been dressed in perfectly modest attire and communicated the same sensual message through sensual vocal techniques alone. Music that is ministered in a worship service in a local church that employs such sensual vocal techniques is music that has no place in divine worship.But we aren’t talking about sewing a worship leader into a dress so that she can croon a sexed up version into God’s ear.
Come on, man. There is a big difference between Marilyn Monroe’s birthday song and a worship service in a local church.
[RajeshG]Ah, so lets get something foundational cleared up. Would you agree that the particular song “Happy Birthday” is neutral (neither moral nor immoral), but the total audio package was sinful?A sensuous performance of “Happy Birthday” does not make that song sinful; you obviously know the answer to that question. I have never asserted anything to the contrary.
I’m a bit confused because you then went on to say that God doesn’t parse things in the total audio package.
Please define “sensual” and “sensual vocal techniques” for those of us who aren’t musicians.
How do you decide if one of your church members feels that xyz song is too sensual and should not be used but another person is fine with it?
I am not going down the “it depends on what the meaning of the word ‘is’ means” road, but I would love to see what Scriptures have bearing on vocal techniques for musicians outside of “make a joyful noise to the Lord” or “singing songs, hymns, and spiritual songs”.
"Our task today is to tell people — who no longer know what sin is...no longer see themselves as sinners, and no longer have room for these categories — that Christ died for sins of which they do not think they’re guilty." - David Wells
Discussion