Following his own advice: No mortgage on his $ 9M mansion
Dave Ramsey’s New Mansion The tax record shows 3 levels in Dave Ramsey‘s Cool Springs home, totaling 13,307 square feet of living area and 1,454 square feet of garage.
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Sorry if I mis- or over-stated your positions. I guess I am confused over exactly what you want from Ramsey — other than for him to teach outside the church.
In response, I would say that the church is so woefully ignorant on finances — Biblically and otherwise — that to me it would be worth the “risk” of using Ramsey’s material, which is the best available, bar none.
I have not found Ramsey’s handling of Scripture to be exceedingly troubling — keeping in mind the purpose of his program. Now if he were giving the Sunday morning sermon every Sunday…well, then I would have an issue with that.
If anything, I might fault him for using the “Rick Warren” method of quoting from a multitude of Bible versions to phrase a verse a particular way. But I have actually not heard him base a teaching on a Scripture that was wildly taken out of context, at least that I can think of.
Sorry if I sounded elitist, or Pelosi-like. Wow — what a charge :O I was using dangerous in a broad sense, I guess. I still wonder — what is the danger??
But I do think that there seems to be an inordinate amount of opposition to him whenever he is brought up here on SI. And again I wonder — what is the danger? His name seems to evoke opposition from all sides of the philosophical compass, and yet — truly — some of the opponents claim outright that they really know nothing about him. Can you explain it?? 8-)
In response, I would say that the church is so woefully ignorant on finances — Biblically and otherwise — that to me it would be worth the “risk” of using Ramsey’s material, which is the best available, bar none.
I have not found Ramsey’s handling of Scripture to be exceedingly troubling — keeping in mind the purpose of his program. Now if he were giving the Sunday morning sermon every Sunday…well, then I would have an issue with that.
If anything, I might fault him for using the “Rick Warren” method of quoting from a multitude of Bible versions to phrase a verse a particular way. But I have actually not heard him base a teaching on a Scripture that was wildly taken out of context, at least that I can think of.
Sorry if I sounded elitist, or Pelosi-like. Wow — what a charge :O I was using dangerous in a broad sense, I guess. I still wonder — what is the danger??
But I do think that there seems to be an inordinate amount of opposition to him whenever he is brought up here on SI. And again I wonder — what is the danger? His name seems to evoke opposition from all sides of the philosophical compass, and yet — truly — some of the opponents claim outright that they really know nothing about him. Can you explain it?? 8-)
Church Ministries Representative, serving in the Midwest, for The Friends of Israel Gospel Ministry
[Susan R] Should we look at someone who buys new every few years with distaste at how they waste their money? After all, why doesn’t everyone buy used cars for cash? Do you HAVE to have A/C, power windows and doors, and a CD player? Why doesn’t everyone shop at the thrift store for clothes and shoes?“The system” wouldn’t work then. Those of us who shop used NEED the richer people who shop high quality and then get rid of in a season or two with lightly used things—so we can buy them. There wouldn’t be enough used things to buy if “everyone bought them”. You’d never find the great deals since “everyone” would be looking for them. As it is, only a certain segment of the population goes to thrift stores, yard sales, buys used from the want ads, etc, so it works.
So, all those who love the malls…keep it up—we need you to make this economy work! (preferably buy really high quality and then discard after one season…let’s see, we could use size….)
[Susan R]There will probably always be someone worse off than you who is critical and money is a particularly hot topic. You can’t really do anything except ignore the criticism and go on with your life.
I think we often criticize what we think is excess in others because it seems excessive based on our own resources. But someone with fewer resources than ourselves could do the same to us. What do we do about that?
[Paul J. Scharf] In response, I would say that the church is so woefully ignorant on finances — Biblically and otherwise — that to me it would be worth the “risk” of using Ramsey’s material, which is the best available, bar none. I have not found Ramsey’s handling of Scripture to be exceedingly troubling — keeping in mind the purpose of his program.I am not confident the church as a whole is woefully ignorant though I agree that this element can be identified in the body of our Lord. The same, of course, can be said about rearing children, gaining an education, choosing a vocation, a spouse, and so on. My point being that the Scriptures do not intend to attend to such details though they do at times gives some specifics that include both unmovable commands and general principles, however God’s devotion in his revelation is not to the details of such matters.
Now one might use the principle of “wisdom” to justify what Ramsey does which is to go beyond the attendance of Scripture and present investment strategies and so on that are not necessarily given divine sanction but are wise. And that is one of the main objections, that he exceeds the boundaries of revelation and its intent as well as the context of “wisdom teaching” to prescribe very detailed financial strategies within the institution of our Lord’s body, thereby giving the more than tacit impression that these are divine methods and principles or that these are true for all people.
Some of what, maybe a lot of what, he teaches can be generally observed to be true. But again, he goes beyond that. Now, I will cede that if one wishes to take away from his material those things that exceed the intent of Scripture, the material might be used. But I would not, for a second, charge anyone or allow anyone to be charged a dime for the material within the church. I would purchase it myself if I was a Pastor if I felt as though his teaching had something to contribute and then all of those things that were not proprietary to his investment and financial strategies but were correct interpretations of Scriptures and sound applications, I would simply incorporate in my own series. Hence I have taken nothing from him that was or is his, originally, rather that I have received from him teaching of the Word which we are free to teach to others.
Now, regarding his proprietary teachings that exceed divine revelation, let him make as much profit as he legitimately can offering such skills to others. However, the body of Christ is not the place for that as I look into the Scriptures and seek to find approval for such and cannot find it.
[Paul J. Scharf] Now if he were giving the Sunday morning sermon every Sunday…well, then I would have an issue with that.As for me, all teaching within the body of our Lord should have the same standard, it should be based on sound exegesis, sound interpretation, and proper application. If Ramsey falls within this range then good, if not, not good.
If anything, I might fault him for using the “Rick Warren” method of quoting from a multitude of Bible versions to phrase a verse a particular way. But I have actually not heard him base a teaching on a Scripture that was wildly taken out of context, at least that I can think of.
[Paul J. Scharf] Sorry if I sounded elitist, or Pelosi-like. Wow — what a charge :O I was using dangerous in a broad sense, I guess. I still wonder — what is the danger??Since there does seem to be a sizable body of those either objecting or having concern, do we simply dismiss them all? After all some of these men are men I know you esteem to some degree, some quite a bit regarding their theological sobriety.
But I do think that there seems to be an inordinate amount of opposition to him whenever he is brought up here on SI. And again I wonder — what is the danger? His name seems to evoke opposition from all sides of the philosophical compass, and yet — truly — some of the opponents claim outright that they really know nothing about him. Can you explain it?? 8-)
I have not used the word “danger” but since you have I will address it in this context. If there is a danger it does not lie with the person of Dave Ramsey, but with his lack of theological perspicacity. Anytime a man is introduced formally to the body of Christ as a teacher within the body of Christ, this role, that of a teacher, possesses with it understood authority and mastery of the Scriptures whether it is true of that man or not. Now clearly it is not always true and in the body many people suffer under unqualified teachers but this does not negate this reality.
One who is presented as a teacher is rightly assumed as qualified. And in the body of our Lord, in the church, a teacher is to be one that has mastered the Scriptures sufficiently to speak and teach on them. I do not believe Dave Ramsey meets that qualification. I believe he has mastered finances and has mastered a method by which he can identify and use all pertinent Scriptures regarding what he believes the Bible teaches which supports his views, but I do not believe he is a master of the Scriptures with regard to what a teacher must be which is well beyond this area. And this is not to say he does not have some understanding in other areas but his elementary flaw of “proof-texting” tells me rather clearly that he has not risen to mastery level.
Yes, he can and should sell his financial skills. It appears he understands a great deal about finances and has a system that works in general and for some people rather specifically. In fact, much of what he teaches I understood growing up, that is the way my parents lived and the way our family has lived with a few exceptions at times.
But let me give a comparison, if I may. You know Gwen Shamblin? She is the founder of http://www.weighdown.com/GwenShamblin.aspx] Weigh Down , an allegedly “biblically based” weight loss, health and nutritional business she calls a ministry. The parallels are quite consistent. The bible clearly addresses food and eating and of course our stewardship of these matters. And Gwen is a Dietitian by profession and has a Masters Degree in Nutrition. And it appears she has found what she believes are passages of Scripture that everyone can use to properly manage their eating and overall health.
The problem is, much like Ramsey, she is theologically lacking, hence she arrests the Scriptures and her tried and true method is “proof-texting”. This simply is unacceptable for sheep to be even slightly encourage in this direction. Have people lost weight, sure? Are there Ph.D.’s attesting to her program? Sure. Does she get results? Sure and so does Ramsey. And I am not saying they are one in the same but their theological deficiencies are just what is the problem. They have turned the Scriptures into a book that supports their system in all of its detail and have taken up the privileged role of teacher within the body of our Lord for which they are not qualified.
[Becky Petersen][Susan R] Should we look at someone who buys new every few years with distaste at how they waste their money? After all, why doesn’t everyone buy used cars for cash? Do you HAVE to have A/C, power windows and doors, and a CD player? Why doesn’t everyone shop at the thrift store for clothes and shoes?“The system” wouldn’t work then. Those of us who shop used NEED the richer people who shop high quality and then get rid of in a season or two with lightly used things—so we can buy them. There wouldn’t be enough used things to buy if “everyone bought them”. You’d never find the great deals since “everyone” would be looking for them. As it is, only a certain segment of the population goes to thrift stores, yard sales, buys used from the want ads, etc, so it works.
So, all those who love the malls…keep it up—we need you to make this economy work! (preferably buy really high quality and then discard after one season…let’s see, we could use size….)
…There will probably always be someone worse off than you who is critical and money is a particularly hot topic.
My questions were rhetorical, but you’ve made my point. My dh and I wouldn’t have half the furniture in our house, or electronics, or clothes without thrift stores and garage sales… and stuff that people put out on the curb for the garbage men to take away. I have name brand clothing and Liz Claiborne purses that I got at Goodwill… and I bet there’s women who wonder how I can afford nice stuff like that, but there ya’ go.
Alex,
I think we probaby agree right down the line on the standards for Bible teaching and Bible teachers in the church — and I am not saying, “Let’s make an exception for Dave Ramsey.”
But I think we disagree on the relative value of Ramsey and his message. I was not taught these things my whole life — I had to learn them as an adult. And I would be in the majority on that one, sadly.
Ramsey goes “beyond the attendance of Scripture” to be sure, but not in giving extra-Biblical revelation or even extra-Biblical doctrine — but in the same way a Christian football coach might use Scripture in a fiery pre-game speech to his team. In context, does that become wrong? Neither one is intending to preach or teach a section of the Bible authoritatively. But they are basing their messages on Scripture and each one has a place, in my mind, as long as they are not violating the Scriptures. Ramsey is a financial teacher/coach, barking instructions to each “player,” and some of us still need a coach. 8-)
I am not looking to Ramsey for Bible teaching or promoting him in that way. He is giving solid, basic financial advice that is based on and in accord with Scripture — and I believe that is greatly needed. The difference between this and child rearing, for one thing, is that the Bible deals far more with money than it does with child rearing. Surely there are some good “child-rearing” teachers, but there are also some who rely on psychology. That would be another difference between these two realms.
Also, when you use the term “investment strategies” you are going to give someone the impression that Ramsey is telling people to get rich quick by investing in Company X for three days and then selling the stock on Thursday like some late-night infomercial. Anyone who has listened to him for 10 minutes knows that is not the case.
As far as whether people should pay for his program in the church, that is a separate issue that has nothing to do with the points I just made. If you are going to rule that out in this case, fine — you will also have to rule out lots of other things, and that is your choice.
But that is the problem whenever Ramsey’s name is brought up. One person is against the way he charges. Another person thinks it is a dumb idea to pay off your mortgage. Another person thinks Ramsey is too rich. Someone else says he is ecumenical. Another guy says, “I don’t like the way they tried to sell it to me when they called me on the phone.” The next guy says he has never heard Ramsey, but has heard bad things about him. Then we hear from a guy who saw Ramsey on network TV and he only talked about finances and didn’t share the gospel.
The criticisms seem endless. You could make the case that there seems to be a preponderance of evidence against Dave Ramsey. That would be one reaction.
Or you could say, “Wait a minute. This is all a bunch of fog. Let’s see through the fog for a minute and consider the real issue. YOUR HOUSE IS BURING DOWN! FIRE, FIRE, FIRE, THE HOUSE IS ON FIRE!!!!!!!!!!!!”
The church house is on fire financially. Right now Dave Ramsey is the best supplier of firefighting equipment. If you have a different way to put out the fire, let’s work together, not fight each other.
I think we probaby agree right down the line on the standards for Bible teaching and Bible teachers in the church — and I am not saying, “Let’s make an exception for Dave Ramsey.”
But I think we disagree on the relative value of Ramsey and his message. I was not taught these things my whole life — I had to learn them as an adult. And I would be in the majority on that one, sadly.
Ramsey goes “beyond the attendance of Scripture” to be sure, but not in giving extra-Biblical revelation or even extra-Biblical doctrine — but in the same way a Christian football coach might use Scripture in a fiery pre-game speech to his team. In context, does that become wrong? Neither one is intending to preach or teach a section of the Bible authoritatively. But they are basing their messages on Scripture and each one has a place, in my mind, as long as they are not violating the Scriptures. Ramsey is a financial teacher/coach, barking instructions to each “player,” and some of us still need a coach. 8-)
I am not looking to Ramsey for Bible teaching or promoting him in that way. He is giving solid, basic financial advice that is based on and in accord with Scripture — and I believe that is greatly needed. The difference between this and child rearing, for one thing, is that the Bible deals far more with money than it does with child rearing. Surely there are some good “child-rearing” teachers, but there are also some who rely on psychology. That would be another difference between these two realms.
Also, when you use the term “investment strategies” you are going to give someone the impression that Ramsey is telling people to get rich quick by investing in Company X for three days and then selling the stock on Thursday like some late-night infomercial. Anyone who has listened to him for 10 minutes knows that is not the case.
As far as whether people should pay for his program in the church, that is a separate issue that has nothing to do with the points I just made. If you are going to rule that out in this case, fine — you will also have to rule out lots of other things, and that is your choice.
But that is the problem whenever Ramsey’s name is brought up. One person is against the way he charges. Another person thinks it is a dumb idea to pay off your mortgage. Another person thinks Ramsey is too rich. Someone else says he is ecumenical. Another guy says, “I don’t like the way they tried to sell it to me when they called me on the phone.” The next guy says he has never heard Ramsey, but has heard bad things about him. Then we hear from a guy who saw Ramsey on network TV and he only talked about finances and didn’t share the gospel.
The criticisms seem endless. You could make the case that there seems to be a preponderance of evidence against Dave Ramsey. That would be one reaction.
Or you could say, “Wait a minute. This is all a bunch of fog. Let’s see through the fog for a minute and consider the real issue. YOUR HOUSE IS BURING DOWN! FIRE, FIRE, FIRE, THE HOUSE IS ON FIRE!!!!!!!!!!!!”
The church house is on fire financially. Right now Dave Ramsey is the best supplier of firefighting equipment. If you have a different way to put out the fire, let’s work together, not fight each other.
Church Ministries Representative, serving in the Midwest, for The Friends of Israel Gospel Ministry
[Paul J. Scharf]Apparently you have either ignored what I have said about teachers within the body or simply do not agree and believe comparing them with a football coach, which are two very different contexts, are manageable equivalents in your mind. Again, one who is presented as a teacher to the body of our Lord that assembles for instruction is presented with the assumption of authority to teach due to his biblical mastery. A coach is not being presented in that context, a football team is not the assembling of the body of our Lord for instruction.
Ramsey goes “beyond the attendance of Scripture” to be sure, but not in giving extra-Biblical revelation or even extra-Biblical doctrine — but in the same way a Christian football coach might use Scripture in a fiery pre-game speech to his team. In context, does that become wrong? Neither one is intending to preach or teach a section of the Bible authoritatively. But they are basing their messages on Scripture and each one has a place, in my mind, as long as they are not violating the Scriptures. Ramsey is a financial teacher/coach, barking instructions to each “player,” and some of us still need a coach.
[Paul J. Scharf] I am not looking to Ramsey for Bible teachingMaybe you should.
[Paul J. Scharf] He is giving solid, basic financial advice that is based on and in accord with Scripture — and I believe that is greatly needed.Wait, you just said you are not looking to Ramsey for Bible teaching yet now justify what he is doing exactly because he is, allegedly, basing it in Scripture which would be just that, bible teaching. This is somewhat inconsistent here, Paul.
[Paul J. Scharf] Also, when you use the term “investment strategies” you are going to give someone the impression that Ramsey is telling people to get rich quick by investing in Company X for three days and then selling the stock on Thursday like some late-night infomercial. Anyone who has listened to him for 10 minutes knows that is not the case.No but there is the case of him, for years (now modified), insisting on pure stock porfolios and avoiding bonds…that is until the crash. As well as the issue with his inability to understand the benefit of index funds which are legitimate and profitable if used correctly, hence he advises against them. The point is these are proprietary and no where in the Bible can one claim to be “biblically basing” such proprietary strategies.
[Paul J. Scharf] As far as whether people should pay for his program in the church, that is a separate issue that has nothing to do with the points I just made. If you are going to rule that out in this case, fine — you will also have to rule out lots of other things, and that is your choice.What would be ruled out? I have never had to pay a single dime for instruction within my church. I believe I have been instructed quite well. I cannot imagine what would be ruled out that I need so badly but cannot pay for.
[Paul J. Scharf] But that is the problem whenever Ramsey’s name is brought up. One person is against the way he charges. Another person thinks it is a dumb idea to pay off your mortgage. Another person thinks Ramsey is too rich. Someone else says he is ecumenical. Another guy says, “I don’t like the way they tried to sell it to me when they called me on the phone.” The next guy says he has never heard Ramsey, but has heard bad things about him. Then we hear from a guy who saw Ramsey on network TV and he only talked about finances and didn’t share the gospel.But what if someone’s house isn’t on fire? You seem to believe everyone’s house is on fire. What if someone does have time to explore and investigate the criticisms and presto, they find some very concerning issues. We simply dismiss it all in the name of expediency? I don’t think so.
The criticisms seem endless. You could make the case that there seems to be a preponderance of evidence against Dave Ramsey. That would be one reaction.
Or you could say, “Wait a minute. This is all a bunch of fog. Let’s see through the fog for a minute and consider the real issue. YOUR HOUSE IS BURING DOWN! FIRE, FIRE, FIRE, THE HOUSE IS ON FIRE!!!!!!!!!!!!”
The church house is on fire financially. Right now Dave Ramsey is the best supplier of firefighting equipment. If you have a different way to put out the fire, let’s work together, not fight each other.
I understand you have the right to claim Dave Ramsey is what you believe to be the optimum choice for believers but the fact is, simply because he is to you does not exempt even the most needy believer for financial advice from the obligation to properly explore and investigate Ramsey before choosing him as a source. And you seem to simply dismiss all criticism and portray them as a fog, rather convenient.
I will simply acknowledge we disagree and obviously we are not going to post back and forth a win one another to their view and I do not believe this is the intent of either one of us. But for those others reading it gives them both sides and I am certain we’ve said enough to give them cause for either direction. Thanks for the interaction.
[Paul J. Scharf] Another person thinks it is a dumb idea to pay off your mortgage.Paul, who might you be referring to in this statement. Please reference a statement on SI that says it is a dumb idea to pay off your mortgage. I have an idea that you are talking about me and I would love for you to back up your assertion.
You are perplexing to say the least. You say that the church house is on fire and Ramsey is the best to put it out. Why can’t you see that there are more important things than debt? What good is it if Ramsey helps someone’s debt while at the same time indoctrinating them with a philosophy that is unbiblical? That is jumping out of the skillet into the fire.
Alex,
I was about to say roughly the same thing that you ended your post with. Yes, let’s end the conversation — no hard feelings. 0:) I think we are talking past each other to a large degree. You are dissecting my words in a way that was not intended when I wrote them. :8) Also, the guy who is deciding between buying stocks and bonds either doesn’t need to worry about Dave Ramsey or else REALLY needs him and just does not know it. And, NO, I reiterate, Dave Ramsey is not a Bible teacher. I think to some extent you are missing the whole point on a couple fronts, but I am not trying to re-open the whole can of worms.
Greg,
Sigh…sigh…sigh… :( No I was not thinking of you when I wrote my post. I have read many things on SI, including defenses of Obamacare and socialism, as well as what a tax break you get by paying a mortgage. You can read Ramsey or not — it is up to you. :)
I was about to say roughly the same thing that you ended your post with. Yes, let’s end the conversation — no hard feelings. 0:) I think we are talking past each other to a large degree. You are dissecting my words in a way that was not intended when I wrote them. :8) Also, the guy who is deciding between buying stocks and bonds either doesn’t need to worry about Dave Ramsey or else REALLY needs him and just does not know it. And, NO, I reiterate, Dave Ramsey is not a Bible teacher. I think to some extent you are missing the whole point on a couple fronts, but I am not trying to re-open the whole can of worms.
Greg,
Sigh…sigh…sigh… :( No I was not thinking of you when I wrote my post. I have read many things on SI, including defenses of Obamacare and socialism, as well as what a tax break you get by paying a mortgage. You can read Ramsey or not — it is up to you. :)
Church Ministries Representative, serving in the Midwest, for The Friends of Israel Gospel Ministry
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