Family Research Council Sides With Conservatives Against Trump in Healthcare Battle

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"The leading social conservative advocacy group Family Research Council has joined conservative lawmakers in voicing opposition to certain elements of the Obamacare replacement bill being advanced by House leadership, which some are calling 'Obamacare Lite.'" CPost

Respect

I'd have a lot more respect for FRC if Tony Perkins had more aggressively fought the nomination of Trump back in 2015 and 2016, rather than joining the "we need somebody to overturn the political class (even if that someone is an immoral egotistical idiot biblically-defined fool)" crowd.

Glad to see they are at least willing to push back a little though.

Maybe some ideas would help

One that comes to mind for me is that self-paid healthcare is taxed differently than employer-paid.  Maybe time to fix that, simplify the tax code, and remove a big advantage for corporations over small business?

Speaking of respect

I made a sincere effort to refer to President Obama as President Obama. I don't appreciate people, especially Christians, calling President Trump an "idiot".

 

As for FRC and the Tony Perkins, he was a solid supporter of Ted Cruz. It wasn't until Cruz stepped aside that Perkins turned to Trump. It was Trump or Hillary...

If Republicans Blow This They Are Done

If the Republicans blow this it's going to really hurt them.  Remember the MI Tea Party Governor and his appointees running the Flint MI water supply.

 Yeah they did it on the cheap and lead  poisoned thousands of minority children.  Lead poisoning can't  be corrected.  Plus they lied about it.  Yeah I really respect those people. 

Just like the two MI Tea Party State Reps who were both Believers.   They had an adulteress relationship and used their offices to cover it up.  When found out they refused to resign because get this THEY WANTED TO BE AROUND TO VOTE FOR FAMILY FREINDLY LEGISLATION. Real Christian of them.  Most likely they were connected to the FRC too.      Also anyone  who would associate with the Duggers and Gothard which the FRC did I find very questionable.  

If they do this on the cheap as the Gothardite Freedoms Cacus wants to it will back fire.  Paul Rayan's plan at least is humane.  You also  have that Tea Party idiot Congressmen from Kansas going on the record saying the poor don't need health insurance because they eat crap don't take care of themselves and would not go to to the Dr. anyway ie it's a waste of money.  Should we support this because the Gothardite Freedom Cacus does.  Certainly borders on class discrimination and racism to me. 

Note:  I'm not against all Republicans just the ones who are involved with the Tea Party and the Christian Right. Republican's like Paul Ryan and Pence I can live with.  To many of these Christian Right Tea Party types have proven themselves over and over again to be idiots and lack compassion.  That's why I think Ryan's plan is the best I have seen even if the idiots call it Obamacare Lite. At least he is showing compassion in his presentation and fellows you can guarantee I'll be thrown in with this with my healthcare. 

Joeb wrote:

Joeb wrote:

If the Republicans blow this it's going to really hurt them.  Remember the MI Tea Party Governor and his appointees running the Flint MI water supply.

 Yeah they did it on the cheap and lead  poisoned thousands of minority children.  Lead poisoning can't  be corrected.  Plus they lied about it.  Yeah I really respect those people. 

Just like the two MI Tea Party State Reps who were both Believers.   They had an adulteress relationship and used their offices to cover it up.  When found out they refused to resign because get this THEY WANTED TO BE AROUND TO VOTE FOR FAMILY FREINDLY LEGISLATION. Real Christian of them.  Most likely they were connected to the FRC too.      Also anyone  who would associate with the Duggers and Gothard which the FRC did I find very questionable.  

If they do this on the cheap as the Gothardite Freedoms Cacus wants to it will back fire.  Paul Rayan's plan at least is humane.  You also  have that Tea Party idiot Congressmen from Kansas going on the record saying the poor don't need health insurance because they eat crap don't take care of themselves and would not go to to the Dr. anyway ie it's a waste of money.  Should we support this because the Gothardite Freedom Cacus does.  Certainly borders on class discrimination and racism to me. 

Note:  I'm not against all Republicans just the ones who are involved with the Tea Party and the Christian Right. Republican's like Paul Ryan and Pence I can live with.  To many of these Christian Right Tea Party types have proven themselves over and over again to be idiots and lack compassion.  That's why I think Ryan's plan is the best I have seen even if the idiots call it Obamacare Lite. At least he is showing compassion in his presentation and fellows you can guarantee I'll be thrown in with this with my healthcare. 

My only disagreement with this is that MI Governor Snyder being linked as a Tea Party conservative.  The tea party conservatives in Michigan couldn't stand Snyder because he is more open to immigration and immigration reform.   

Joel I Stand To Be Corrected

My apologizes.  The principal still stands.  Done on the cheap as the Republicans like to do can lead to disaster as seen in Flint MI. Thousands of minority children permenantly physically harmed.  Wait until the State of Michigan has to pay on that class action lawsuit.  

The Tea Party Christian Right Gothardite Freedom Cacus agenda has no compassion especially when one of  their members said giving the poor healthcare is a waste of money.

 You see I don't drink their vile punch and I have been called an outright sinner when I pointed out to one of them that it is not the government's responsibility to carry the gospel of Jesus Christ.  The person also disagreed that such a position was in direct violation of the 1st amendment.  

Now I wonder where he/she got that from.  If I recall correctly there is a video on You Tube where the head of the FRC says the 1st amendment only applies to Christians.  I may be wrong and maybe it's an older video and a different Top guy but it certainly shows that this idea was being past around in Christian Right circles. 

So any of you Christian Right guys if you buy into this shame on you.  Give up your American citizenship and go to an island and form your Christian Saudi Arabia.

 Remember the same guy who wrote the 1st amendment also did a peace treaty ratified by Congress with the Islamic Barabary States.  In this treaty Jefferson wrote that the US was not a Christian Country in that it would go to war with Islam for that reason.  So for punch drinkers the 1st amendment does not apply to just Christians.  By the way Jefferson was a Theist.    

Note:  Taking in the fact this Country is broke.  People like Ryan realize this and want to pursue a strategy of running the government with compassion.  Ryan also wants to pursue a tight fiscal policy, which I believe he has shown.  Versus some Christian Right Tea Partiers who want a Christian Saudi Arabia and everyone who disagrees with them thrown overboard. Also some only want a white Saudi Arabia Christian Nation and the men and women bearing the mark of Kane to be put in their place. 

Not the Government's Job

JoeB, you are right that it's not the government's job to promote the Gospel of Christ.  I assume you also agree that it's not the government's job to extend benevolence.  That's the job of families, communities, and churches, not government.

G. N. Barkman

FYI, FWIW, the Flint Water

FYI, FWIW, the Flint Water Scandal was a good deal more complex than the MI Republicans doing it on the cheap. Probably not fair to include it in this.

What Larry says on Flint

Ugly reality here is that while the EPA and the state of Michigan dropped the ball, no one was holding a gun to the heads of the Flint Water Department telling them not to do a basic pH test or lead test in water out of the faucet.   No one knew better than the city that they had a lot of lead pipe out there, and no one knew better than the city why they went to river water instead of City of Detroit--more or less to get a few bucks to help bail out their pension system.  No one knew better than the City of Flint that General Motors had stopped using their water because it was corroding their machined parts--that should have been a heads-up right there.  Blame goes at least 80% to the City of Flint Water Department.  They had all the data and did nothing--or rather did worse than nothing.

Regarding Mark's comment, I am personally torn on the question of whether we ought to refer to politicians with words that correspond to their actions.  Yes, Romans 13, but at some point, doesn't "Nero's" behavior become bad enough that we are free to refer to him as a guy who sets our brothers and sisters on fire at garden parties for his amusement?  (real example according to tradition at least)  Perhaps we ought to be more specific than merely saying "idiot", but at the same time, I don't know that one's position as a ruler set in place by God insulates a man from criticism.

Correct Me If I'm Wrong

The City of Flint was under State Control due a  fiscal situation as is Atlantic City NJ is now.  The main guy or guys running the water department were appointed by the Governor hence the Republican's fault. The City officials had some say but the State appointed officials were in charge.  

These fine foolish men decided to save money by taking water from the local well known polluted river.  On top of all this these unfit technicians unlike Bert botched the treatment of the water by ignoring EPA regulations   and destroyed the pipes. You know that big bad EPA we don't need. This caused the leaching of the lead which I believe they are having trouble rectifying    

 So yes it goes back to the Republican Govenor and doing things on the cheap.  Wait until the State of MI gets the bill for the class action lawsuit  and for replacing the Flint water system.  YIKES !!!!!!    Penny wise pound foolish. 

Larry Good Point But.

Larry the Gothardite Freedom Caucas definitely  wants to do it on the cheap.  Now if Ted Cruz was our President he would want to do everything on the cheap to but he is smart enough to connect it to the fact that we are BROKE.  Cruz would include everyone except the defense department where as the Freedom Cacus' motives is to kill the Federal Government at all costs for their vision of a Christian Saudi Arabia.  Big difference.  Question is if the Freedom Cacus got their way would we have morality Police  

Flint does apply because it's just one more thing the Republican's do to save a few bucks at the expense of a particular group of people.  Same as the health insurance.  

Additionally If my wife's friend who is a big time Christian Right Supporter and has a young disabled adult complains about  her expenses going up.  Guess what  I will rebuke her by saying you got what you voted for be quiet. She has already expressed some concern about what was going to happen to the health insurance.  I almost said to her shhhh you voted for these guys. .

I am not  trying to be mean but this person was very aggressive in supporting the Christian Right on social media. She and her buddy (Not Being Mt Wife) posted an article that outright said so called Christians with Tattoos at Churches playing CCM and Christian Rock were apostates and non believers with the question you would not want to go to a sinful church like that.  From my experience this is part of the nature of some people from the Christian Right.  Esspecially Gothardites.  

Now I maybe repeating myself for the thousandth time but I would have whole heartedly voted for Ted Cruz or Chris Christie or Rand Paul.  These were the only Politicians not kicking the can down the Road.  Unfortunately these are going to be the guys saying I told you so when the car hits the wall.  It is  just that with these guys in charge we would hit it the wall at 25 mph.  Now with everyone else it's going to be 100 +   It's just with every one else it's how much 100 are we going to hit it. 

Nope, that's Detroit

Flint controlled its own water --the EPA and state environmental board did get sign off, and thus do get some blame, but their role was to check the plan coming from the city.  No debate that they missed some obvious points in the check-off, and no argument that we fundagelicals, myself included, screw things up royally at times, but simultaneously no need to overstate it.  :^)

Joe, I don't know if that was

Joe, I don't know if that was all addressed to me or the other Larry here. But I don't know what any of that means. I have no idea what the Gothardite Freedom Caucus is or what they stand for. I would have greatly preferred Cruz. Probably not a good idea to rebuke your wife's friend that way, but we should all be able to agree that the ACA is broken and was broken from the start.

But back to Flint, which was my only point, again it is much more complex. The EPA, the MDEQ, and the Flint Water had responsibilities and all failed as did the city government who, for decades, had failed to live within their means. The FM law in Michigan was tailored to cities who could not manage themselves even with state help. It was a last resort. Flint had long been at fault for dysfunction which brought on the state management. The DWSD played a role in it. Perhaps the smallest role, at least as far as an active role, was the governor himself. I don't believe the people running the Flint Water Department were governor appointed. In any case, it is much more complex than you seem to recognize.

Freedom Caucus

The reason I referred to the Freedom Caucus in this way is their voted leader Daniel Webster is a 30 + year Gothardite Veteran who never denounced and still supports Gothard and the organization. His whole staff are Gothardites.  It has been this way since he was a State Representstive.  

Webster's son is married into the Bates family and Mr Bates runs the Gothard organization and allegedly covered for Gothard while he raped and pillaged his way through his  harem of underage girls. Gothard's staff own words to describe the gals.  

The Freedom Caucus overwhelmingly supported this  despicable  man to be Speaker of the House.  If it was not for Ryan out smarting the Freedom Caucus it may have happened.  

If the rest of the Freedom Caucus is supporting Webster they have to have similar beliefs ie involved with the Satanic Cult of Gothard.

Not one Freedom Caucus member has denounced Gothard or denounced Webster for being involved with him hence GOTHARDITE FREEDOM Caucus

Plus their smaller  presence in the Senate outweighs all the other participants.  They are very vocal loud obnoxious and uncompromising.  The other Republicans have allowed the tail  to wag dog way to much.  This health bill will show once again their rudeness in shoving their twisted views down everyone's throats.  The same thing they accused Obama of doing.  

In some circumstances the politicians involved with the Gothard political movement have compromised themselves so much I don't know how they look themselves in the mirror to shave.  

Case in point.   The  great Mr Huckabee when he was Governor of Arkansas gave Gothard's ministers free access to the women's prisons.  Huckabee was an ardent supporter of Gothard and the Duggers. What happened?  Gothard's ministers sexually molested their way through the women prisoners under the guise of wanting to lead them to Christ. They are all awaiting trial now. If I ever did what Huckabee did in this matter I'd have a hard time not putting a bullet through my head but Mr Huckabee seems to have no problem with it and still strongly supports Gothard and the dear  Duggers. 

PS. I won't tell my wife's friend the aforementioned statement. She  is a dear soul. I know she loves her Lord very much.  It's just sad she is brainwashed by these other Christian Right Believers who say things that violate are constitution in such obvious ways.  I still can't figure what boat they got off and who has been teaching them this insane stuff.  Highly suspect it is the Gothard organization who impacted the Christian Right in such a warped way.

 

 

I don't know about any of

I don't know about any of that and I am not sure why you directed that at me. And it's not logically sound. But whatever ... 

Just Explaining The Freedom Cacus And Gothard Connection.

[quote=Larry]

I don't know about any of that and I am not sure why you directed that at me. And it's not logically sound. But whatever ... 

Only explaining Freedom Cacus and Gothard connection.  A lot of these Republican Groups are  intertwined.  Freedom Cacus FRC Tea Party and Christian Right.  All above were involved with the  Gothard's organization and the Duggers the Bates politically and promoted the unbiblical warped Gothard life style. Yet none are willing to admitt their sin or denounce the evil.  The whole thing taints them due Gothard's almost Satanic teachings.  

They all trumpet the success of Hobby Lobby in their win at the Supreme Court level, but not one peep from Mr Hobby Lobby himself who bankrolled Gothard BIG BiG BIG time. Where is the commitment to Christ for them to very very very publically   admit they sinned by backing this nut and then offer to bankroll the victims in their pursuit to squeeze every nickel and dime out of the Gothard organization to totally publically crush it. 

When Zaquis came down from the tree he admitted his sin and accepted the Lord as his savior and offered to pay back all he robbed ten times over. Zaquis was collecting more and above the tax he was  suppose to collect, which he probably got a percentage of.  Criminal activity. How much more criminal activity is raping young girls. 

You say how is this germane I say absolutely, because it's the same Congressman and Senators  and their political organization who supported this boob.  They are living in sin demonizing the left but not dealing with their own sin.  So how can people who are allegedly Christians like Daniel Webster and his cronies even honestly deal with Obamacare when they are so openly living in sin that the non believers see it.  Someone explain this to me and I know people fall in sin and I get that but these people are the ones tainting the fundementalist name and are considered part of the tribe.  i don't get it is the game the ends justify the means and is that what believers are suppose to do and support this philosophy.  

This alleged Christian Political machine and its elected political officials has run off the tracks.  Respect the FRC. Your  kidding me they supported the Gothard DUGGER lifestyle big time as the model for the American Family.  Is it biblical to take endorsements from the Gothard organization and Mr Hobby Lobby as Cruz did. Now I wasn't happy about this but at least CRUZ was willing to focus on the real issue that were broke and that directly ties into the healthcare and what to do about it.  

I guess I'm out of the loop!

Thanks joeb for clearing all of that up!

I have attended many Republican meetings, and even more than one Tea Party event. NOT ONCE did I ever hear about Gothard, the Duggars, or the "mark of Kane" as you wrote it. 

Thanks for making it clear what the real motivation for limited government in America is.

Hail Gothard!

On Gothard

Appreciated Mark's lighthearted comment greatly; I too have been "out of the loop", but it is worth noting that Gothardism creeps into place you'd never expect it.  IBLP had a huge unknowing following among homeschoolers via the Duggars and Vision Forum, for example, and the close interfamilial relationships among homeschoolers in particular and fundagelicals in general spread Gothard's ideas far beyond what IBLP could have done.  

That said, "politics makes strange bedfellows," and you can look and find some pretty damning connections just about anywhere.  For example, Obama's connections.  We need to be careful to distinguish between who is really calling the shots (it's not always obvious to be sure), and mere guilt by association fallacies.  

Gothard

I'd never heard of Gothard until somebody mentioned him on SI a few years ago. So . . . there.

TylerR is a former Pastor. He lives with his family in Olympia, WA. He blogs here.

This thread has wandered but a brief comment

TylerR wrote:

I'd never heard of Gothard until somebody mentioned him on SI a few years ago. So . . . there.

Here's an assessment of Gothard's teachings from 1984

Still holds true today - misuse of the OT / teaching personal views (some were good & moral) as authoritative 

How it "worked":

  • A lot of very good stuff about the home & family
  • "Helped" many teens submit to parents

The material is very slick and professionally done

I would liken it to a pervasive / invasive weed used as groundcover - think of Kudzu, the weed that ate the South

When I went to my 1st pastorate in New Jersey, GARBC churches routinely promoted Gothard's Institute in Basic Youth Conflict:

Interesting quote from above: "His conservative teachings encourage Bible memorization, large families, homeschooling, aversion to debt, respect for authority, conservative dress"

I suggest that all in the above sentence are positive and "good".

Gothard also had 1 day pastor's conferences that were either free of very low cost. These were very popular. 

One (there were many) weird views: " He has warned that some toys such as Cabbage Patch dolls may cause destructive behavior in children."

 

 

 

A reference

....to the Arkansas scandal is that one Kenneth Dewitt was accused of 50 counts of sexual assault committed against at least three inmates.  Joe, be careful that you don't overstate the case--thankfully it appears to have been only one perpetrator, and while he was IBLP, it's hard to draw statistical conclusions on n=1.  

Per Jim's comment, the biggest problem with Gothard isn't weird lifestyle prescriptions.  It's that whether he gets the conclusion right or wrong, he takes the student through a chain of illogic so that the student is actually trained not to think straight by the end of his IBLP courses.  It really cuts at the heart of the 1st fundamental, IMO.

Good Point Bert

Bert your right. Sorry.  My point is how can a group of men or women Congress Reps known as the Freedom Cacus pick Daniel Webster as their leader knowing he is a hardcore and an ardent supporter of Bill Gothard for years and allegedly staffs his whole staff with Gothardites. I guess that really gets me especially due to Gothard's alleged criminal past and in some cases gross biblical teachings like only call the cops after the fourth time confronting daddy about raping his daughter, but if he repents don't call the cops.  

On top of all this they push Daniel Webster to be speaker of the House.  It says to me that a lot more of the Freedom Cacus share Webster's twisted beliefs. Yet Christians still think this Freedom Cacus is the best thing since sliced bread ie the ends justify the means.  So I see this group's input on the new healthbill as bad.  

Now guys I'm not  totally against all Repubilcans. I said right from the beginning that I would have voted and supported Ted Cruz for President even though I don't agree with him in a lot of areas but Cruz gets it we're broke.  I have seen Cruz in action and there is a big difference in saying honestly that were broke to Americans and being kind in your words and doing it in Love and saying will do the best we can and all suffer together than heartlessly just make cuts and demonizing the democrats.  

I believe people like Pence Ryan and Cruz have kind hearts and will do what's best but do it kindly.  Not like saying poor people dont use health insurance so don't waste the money. That's what I'm getting at. We as believers are taught to do it in love even to our enemies.  Enough said I shall be quiet. 

Jim special thanks to you for confirming one of my original statements at least in South Jersey that Gothard did have his hooks into GARB.  The former missionary on thois site denied that and said I was wrong.  The guy Donald Fullerton who I said to google his name was one of the men who 41 years ago threw GOthard out of my church because he knew Gothard was a phoney. My church was in Princeton NJ.  Some downsides Bert Donald would not agree with you and Me in the use of Alcohol area and dressing for church.  He believed men should where suits to church Bert and all his Boys from Princeton Evangelical Fellowship were dressed to the T in suits.  I never saw Donald Fullerton in anything but a suit.  Even on the street. My father got his suits from the same Taylor.  Bert Donald Fullerton in my mind was a true Fundementalist in every use of the word.  He was also very kind to my family and my mother  He liked to here my mother sing the hyms.  Even though I lost my mother at 18 she was one tough cookie and grew up with many serious health issues but I never saw my mother flinch once or blame the Lord. She caught Polio during the Polio epidemics while working in the Polio wards. 

 

Ps Jim have you ever heard of the Kingery Family singing group IM me. 


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