Where the Bill Nye v. Ken Ham Debate Went off Track

Well Larry, I used the word intentionally because I wanted to respect the fact that these things are designed rather than evolved. If some animals did not die quickly in our current ecosystem, the whole system would collapse. I think it would be naive to think that changing a mayfly’s lifespan from 5 days to 5 hours does not have big consequences somewhere. If God incorporated death after the fall, that is no small thing. There are big design issues involved.

So yes, I think it safe to say that God designed animals to live the life spans they do rather than that being a consequence of the fall.

Never really thought about it before, but, if (and that’s a big if) there were significant design changes as a result of the fall, I wonder how this might have immediately affected the extinction of certain species.

It seems to be that the simplest answer would be that the first man’s sin brought death to mankind alone. It would require those who have espoused “no death before fall” to admit that their statement may be a little broader than it should be.

I tend to agree Ron. I personally would lean toward a no-death-for-humans-only before the fall position which means I do not have to deal with a lot of the problems someone like Ham does.

My reluctance to accept the simple answer, Ron, is the content of Romans 8:19-22. These verses connect the pain, frustration, and corruption experienced by the “whole creation” to the fallen human condition.

Romans 8:19-22 says nothing about death though. Not to be facetious, but it could apply to weeds, thorns on roses, and animals that bite.

If some animals did not die quickly in our current ecosystem, the whole system would collapse.

Sure, as it exists now. But what about then? Again, we simply cannot know.

Several issues:

1) Was the mayfly as we know it even a creation? Or was it the result of the genetic dilution and mutation of the fly “kind” after the fall? We can’t answer that. Remember, God didn’t create each animal we see now. God created kinds and those kinds have reproduced according to their kind. They did not cross kinds; they have apparently mutated within a kind, as humans have (e.g., original of skin color, eye color, physical stature, etc.).

2) Does the mayfly have a nephesh, a living soul? If not, then it probably wasn’t part of the death from the curse.

3) What was the original ecosystem like (for the day or so that it existed before the fall)?

So yes, I think it safe to say that God designed animals to live the life spans they do rather than that being a consequence of the fall.

I think it not safe to say that, at least with any dogmatism.

Ron, I’ll grant that death is not specifically mentioned in Romans 8, but unless we have every instance of animal death prior to Adam occurring without any pain, frustration, or decay (or to use your suggestion, without one animal ever biting another), we’ve still got a problem. In reality, death represents the very apex of creaturely pain and frustration—that’s why the solution offered in Romans 8 is fundamentally contained in resurrection.

I might add, too, that the suggestion that all animal death before Adam was peaceful and painless won’t win any nods in the world of secular academia either—their models all insist on violent death perpetrated by the “fit” against the “unfit.”

It seems to me that the “simple answer” for Romans 8 is that all death in the created universe, at least as defined in Scripture, commences at the fall, and ceases at the final resurrection.

Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned—

This is the verse I have heard cited on death by sin. Granted, the last part of the verse refers to men, but the first part refers to the world and death in general. I suppose we have to define what we mean by death. Eating fruit certainly isn’t death, the tree that produced presumably still lives to produce fruit again.

There seems to be an assumption here that there was some time lapse between the creation of Adam & Eve and their sin in eating the fruit. What if that time was less than a day? The Bible doesn’t specify the amount of time between the 2 events.

There had to be a time lapse. There is the naming of the animals (whatever that was), the creation of Eve, the message of God to Adam concerning the creation of the woman, the stating of the rules of the garden. All of that takes some time.

We have no idea how much time, but there is some time. However, I don’t think the length of time really matters. The question is, does the Bible teach that the fall had an affect on the rest of creation, not just on man. I think it is quite clear that it does.

[JohnBrian] What if that time was less than a day?

[Don Johnson]

There had to be a time lapse. There is the naming of the animals (whatever that was), the creation of Eve, the message of God to Adam concerning the creation of the woman, the stating of the rules of the garden. All of that takes some time.

We have no idea how much time, but there is some time. However, I don’t think the length of time really matters. The question is, does the Bible teach that the fall had an affect on the rest of creation, not just on man. I think it is quite clear that it does.

I’m not sure there had to be a time lapse. No idea how many animals there were (were there just two canines or were all the species available), or how many were named (as Mark mentioned earlier the creation account may have been much more restrictive in its use of “animals” than modern science), or, really, how they were named - i.e. canines; or dogs, wolves, coyotes, etc; or Cocker Spaniel, Lab, Great Dane, etc; or shep, spot, etc. Were insects named, or only mammals. Land creatures? Air creatures? Sea creatures? Eve doesn’t present a problem regardless being created on the 6th day with Adam - unless you are extending creation beyond the normal 7 days for some reason. It seems feasible as a possibility that the fall occurred immediately after creation.

Creation of man, day six

God rested, day seven (all that he created was very good)

Fall… any day after day eight

But, again, I am not sure what significance the length of time makes. I don’t think God created the earth to “survive” until the death cycle could commence after the fall. Whatever creation was like in the time of innocency, it was very good, it was functioning, nothing needed to be added, and something changed with the fall, see previous references in Rm 5 and 8

It seems to me that a key question is simply whether death is conceivable in a perfect world. I understand death to be the great cosmic contradiction. To admit the introduction of death into the pre-Fall environment would seem to require either a change in our understanding of what “death” or “perfection” refers to; or adoption of the notion that pre-Fall creation was not perfect. Any of these three possible moves carries with it enormous theological implications.