No, Haitian Immigrants Are Not Eating Pet Cats

It may be more complicated than that, I agree. But Trump needs to move away from fear mongering and outline a plan. Whether he agrees with it or not, they do have a legal status. He should clearly outline a plan. His plan has increasingly has grown more extensive with less facts and more fear over time.

Protections were given temporarily because of the conditions in Haiti, something that has been extended to other groups at various times in the last 30 or so years. I think we remember the missionary couple that were dragged into the streets in Haiti and brutally murdered a little while ago as the president of Haiti fled and the country descended into chaos run by armed gangs.

Whether that should have been extended or not, is up for debate. But that is what the debate should be about, not lets identify a group of people by race and culture, lets hails slurs at them.

By the way, Erika Lee and Kimberly Newton came out on Friday, September 13th that their claims were hearsay. So no, it wasn't quite recent. It was 6 days ago (3 days after the debate lie).

As I observe the pushback against dgszweda, Ken S and myself, I am dumbfounded how much stock those on SI gave to hearsay rather than proven methods of research. I can't prove it, but I feel that the government's mishandling of COVID-19 really sowed irreparable damage and permanent distrust of government institutions among many conservatives where we are skeptical of government officials hiding the truth from us but where we automatically see virtue among the average conservative "Joe" on the street. It doesn't matter if the hearsay was in March or August, if a person can't substantiate with evidence, it shouldn't be shared or believed or else its gossip and slander, even if it is about people we don't know. Trump, Vance, the GOP who spread these lies and rumors sinned. Period. Their lies are not somehow more virtuous than the progressive lies from the other side. I only wish that both political parties would "police" and keep their own politicians accountable when they do something morally wrong. Instead, they focus much more on what the other side is doing wrong and minimize the sins of their own group.

Even if it turned out to be true, that doesn't mean what Trump is doing is ok. He is using the story to stoke hatred and spread xenophobia. This is antithetical to the Bible, and Christians should be distancing themselves from this, not supporting Trump. I can't believe this even needs to be said.

What I can't believe needs to be said is that the fundamental truth about what is going on is necessarily prior to any conclusions about the politics. All the pontificating of the talking heads and the "self-regulating" media establishment (which has zero credibility at this point with genuinely fair-minded people) ignores this more fundamental question.

My objection from the beginning is that too often we say things like, "Even if it proves to be true [insert despised politician here], we all know he's a liar and a horrible person." Uh, no. Let's prioritize truth.

PVawter, I'm trying to understand...are you saying that if the story is true then Trump is not using it to stoke xenophobia?

What I see is that if the story is true then Trump is:

• stoking xenophobia
• not offering practical solutions to help legal Haitian immigrant assimilate into our culture

If the story is false, Trump is:

• stoking xenophobia
• spreading false narratives about legal Haitian immigrants

In either case Trump is fomenting hatred and stoking xenophobia. This is his MO, and he does at every rally, town hall, interview, podcast appearance, and so on. He's been doing it for years and it's the key point on how he hopes to win the election, by getting enough voters outraged about "these people poisoning our country". So far in Springfield this has resulted in 33 bomb threats, state troopers being sent in to guard kids heading to school, event cancellations, and radical far right groups with assault rifles visiting the city to demonstrate. Legal immigrants in Springfield are being called "dirty Haitians" and other verbal abuses. I'm not sure how Christians thing this is Biblically defensible, and not sure why they want to defend it.

As far as the story, I'm concerned about truth as well. But so far it's been said to be false by numerous reliable authorities including even the Springfield PD, so who exactly are the ones concerned about truth here?

I think the disparaging statements against the Haitians are just going to get more severe. Just this morning, my wife reposted a meme on her facebook page that said this:

Jack Brewer, who has worked in Haiti for 15 years confirms eating wild animals and cannibalism

"Not just are they eating animals, but they're eating humans. There's cannibalism in Haiti going on all the time. I have literally videos on my phone of people eating and sacrificing other people."

"The culture in Haiti, that people eat animals and sacrifice animals. You have a big voodoo culture in Haiti that's just rampant."

I just hope this doesn't get spread enough for Trump or Vance to see it. Who knows what Trump would say at the next rally.

Pvawter,

"My objection from the beginning is that too often we say things like, "Even if it proves to be true [insert despised politician here], we all know he's a liar and a horrible person." Uh, no. Let's prioritize truth."

No, that is not what we are saying. What we are saying, that even if a haitian is found to have eaten a cat, than all we have is a haitian eating a cat. We don't have "the hatians in Springfield are stealing peoples pets and eating them, so we need to deport them"

I care about the truth. But at this point, the only confirmation we have is that there have been no confirmed reports at the city, state or federal level. And all the accusations have been hearsay so far. So do, I sit here and say, "Well, we have all of this evidence that nothing happened, bbbbuuuutttt, it could happen, so therefore I can't say for sure that it never happened." And since I can't say for sure it never happened, than what Trump said is true.

As a side note, we aren't saying he is a liar and horrible person, because we don't like him. We are saying he is a liar and horrible person, because he abuses women, laughs at God, is a convicted criminal and impeached twice. Does that make everything he does wrong? No. Does that mean you shouldn't vote for him (that is for each person to decide). What it does mean is we should call out the wrong he does do, otherwise we are complicit in it.

I guess if we cannot agree on whether or not 5 or 6 days ago was quite recent, then we will be talking past each other for quite a while. Thank you, however, for clarifying the exact day of the event that I had not even heard about until yesterday- 5 days after it happened. I am guessing a lot of us did not hear about the city council meeting that happened in March until yesterday either. The point is that more information keeps coming out and that is good. As has been pointed out by numerous of us, the information does not justify whether Trump should have said what he said though. Let me go on record yet again that he should not have said it. I think we should be able to separate that part of the discussion and learn that we can agree on some things and disagree on others without attaching each other's character.

As far as if it was a lie or not. If 2 or 3 people who are first hand witnesses say something happened, then Biblically we should not call it a lie. Those people do not have to be elected officials. On this particular subject, after it has been discussed for over a week, I still have not found those 2 or 3 first hand witnesses. A week ago however, I was under the impression that those witnesses did exist. That is why it is wise to wait for the facts to be forthcoming before jumping to conclusions one way or the other.

Ken,

Since I don't pay much attention to all the things President Trump says, I don't know if he's spreading xenophobia. Based on your comments here at SI, though, I would not expect your reading to be particularly charitable when it concerns the former President.

Dgsweda,

I will try to reiterate my point once more. With regard to a developing story like the one coming out of Springfield last week, it is wise to wait to pass judgment until the facts are known. Recently, the media has demonstrated a tendency to swiftly "debunk" stories (especially those of a political nature), only to have the story confirmed weeks or months later after the news cycle has moved on. The certainty with which several commentors here have declared that Trump and the GOP are peddling racist tropes for nefarious purposes seems to me to be foolishly premature.

I might be wrong. Maybe y'all are right about Trump/Vance and the GOP. But being right about them isn't the real point, if you understand what I am saying.

It appears the only evidence that JD Vance could find, he sent to the WSJ. It further appears that the cat was not eaten by the Haitians, but was just in the basement of the homeowner's home.

https://www.businessinsider.com/jd-vance-springfield-cat-alive-police-report-2024-9

I think the point you are missing pvawter, is that you are viewing this as we shouldn't pass judgment until the facts are known. I am viewing this as Trump and JD Vance should keep their mouth shut until they have some facts to provide. To me, when the Chief of Police quickly comes on and states that there is no reports or confirmed cases of this, than it really isn't about the media. You say the media moves to swift to debunk stories, and I say the politicians are too quick to spew trash without a stitch of evidence. Not only that, Trump didn't say someone stole a cat, he said, "they are stealing pets". If he was going to make a statement as silly as this, than his campaign should have released a detailed fact sheet. Instead it was all hearsay and innuendo's. If Trump "knew" that pets were being stolen, wouldn't it be incunbant on him to produce the facts behind his wild statement. Why is he able to say want he wants regardless of facts, but we are criticized for pushing back with facts, because we aren't waiting long enough. How long do we wait, in your mind, until the truth is known? 2 weeks? 1 month? 6 months? If he said that Christian's eat babies, should we just be quiet and not say anything, because it would be prematurely foolish, until all the facts are laid out and we can conclusively state that not a single Christian has ever eaten a baby?

It may strike a more challenging tone to me, because I was made fun of as a child because of my ethnic background, and it was used through ethnic slurs, much in the same vein as Trump often uses to immigrants and those around him. These slurs that politicians use have real meaning.

I spent a whole day at Ellis Island a few months ago, and it was amazing to me, to see the written comments about immigrants in the 1700's, 1800's and 1900's and how the same language is being used today about immigrants. I was shocked reading the comments at the museum, and shocked hearing some of it come out of politicians mouths today. Trump doesn't need to spread these lies to have a good discussion around immigration, something that most people would not argue is a problem today.

Ken,

Since I don't pay much attention to all the things President Trump says, I don't know if he's spreading xenophobia. Based on your comments here at SI, though, I would not expect your reading to be particularly charitable when it concerns the former President.

It's not uncharitable to call out the massive character flaws in Trump any more than it is uncharitable for others here to call out the character flaws in various Democrats. I don't base the claim of Trump spreading xenophobia on this one incident. It's what he does all the time, and he used this story as another avenue to continue more of the same. Since you don't pay much attention to the things Trump says you may be unaware of just how much this is a part of his current campaign and his previous presidency. And this is just one aspect of his character. There are numerous other areas where he is a man of poor character as well.

I heard a while back that Trump had referred to "black jobs." That whole incident made it clear to me how insensitive I am about those sorts of things. I watched the Matt Walsh movie last night and I realize I have a lot to learn. We all do. Even Joe Biden ended up using the phrase "black jobs," this last week. I actually cut a bit more slack to Trump when he did it because we had not yet been educated on how offensive the term was when he used it. But when Biden used the term last week, there had been plenty of time for the message to get out that such a term was offensive, yet Biden used it anyway. Amazingly the same people who were critical of Trump for using the term "black jobs," did not seem as concerned when Biden used that term even after all the education we have received over the past few months. Now, I am even more confused and obviously I have a lot to learn. Maybe I just need to take the advice of the non-expert on last night's movie who suggested that we all just love each other. The movie left the impression that this man, not the "experts" had really found the answer. I wasn't surprised by that though since the scriptures teach that as well.

Some have theorized that Biden used the term "black jobs" simply because he has dementia and did not know better. I think those people forgot that the idea that he has dementia is just a right wing conspiracy and that the people in authority who really matter told us that he is mentally fine.

(italics to indicate satirical intent)

Regarding the alleged threats against immigrants in Springfield, Governor DeWine claims that all of those have been investigated, and are not only from out of state, but from outside the country. So I think everybody here, yes myself included, needs to take a deep breath and hold off on some of the craziest stuff. Unfortunately, the news cycle seems to encourage it.

I think the point you are missing pvawter, is that you are viewing this as we shouldn't pass judgment until the facts are known. I am viewing this as Trump and JD Vance should keep their mouth shut until they have some facts to provide. To me, when the Chief of Police quickly comes on and states that there is no reports or confirmed cases of this, than it really isn't about the media. You say the media moves to swift to debunk stories, and I say the politicians are too quick to spew trash without a stitch of evidence. Not only that, Trump didn't say someone stole a cat, he said, "they are stealing pets". If he was going to make a statement as silly as this, than his campaign should have released a detailed fact sheet. Instead it was all hearsay and innuendo's. If Trump "knew" that pets were being stolen, wouldn't it be incunbant on him to produce the facts behind his wild statement. Why is he able to say want he wants regardless of facts, but we are criticized for pushing back with facts, because we aren't waiting long enough. How long do we wait, in your mind, until the truth is known? 2 weeks? 1 month? 6 months? If he said that Christian's eat babies, should we just be quiet and not say anything, because it would be prematurely foolish, until all the facts are laid out and we can conclusively state that not a single Christian has ever eaten a baby?

This is actually what "fair-minded" thinking looks like. As I mentioned earlier, the burden of proof is on those who make the allegations in the first place, which were the ones who blew the story up without any proof, including social media celebrities, Trump, Vance, and some of the GOP politicians. I kinda feel sorry for Erika Lee, Kimberly Newton, and others who spread the rumors because they had no idea their gossip based on hearsay would be used for dishonest gain by social media celebrities, Trump, Vance, and some of the GOP politicians. But that's one of the harmful consequences from the sins of the tongue. (James 3:5-12)

But here is the problem. Trump knows he won't held accountable for it because his conservative base won't hold him accountable for the lies he tells to stoke fear about immigration and rally his base or other lies he's told or continues to tell. Have the media been wrong on a number of times? Absolutely. Going all the way back to FBI probe of Trump colluding with Russia in the 2016 election, the media's confirmation bias against him has been evident. At the same time, Trump realized he could use the media witch hunts from the early years of his term to discredit any media source that attempts to hold him accountable for lies that he tells. All he had to do was play the victim-card and his base would assume he was the truth-teller and the media were the liars with continual witch-hunts against him.

There are numerous incidents over the last decade of Trump making Xenophobic and Racialized statements. They're pretty easy to find by googling them. Yet some of them I don't count as legit because they are also hearsay statements. But what I've experienced among many conservatives is they tune out these troubling statements because of the genetic fallacy (as if truth and fact-reporting can only come from right-wing news sources) or because they believe only KKK-type actions or speech qualifies for Xenophobia and racism. They've narrowed it to such a degree that hardly anyone is guilty of it. Now I realize that its probably a pendelum response to the progressive left who have labeled almost every action or speech a form of Xenophobia or racism, which is wrong as well.

And as I mentioned earlier, this was by far one of the easiest incidents to fact check, based on Police, City Manager, Ohio Governer, and Ohio Department of Natural Resources statements, the fact that Haitian Culture doesn't eat cats or sacrifice them within voodoo religion and even how the information was gathered.

Here is a clip from Trump's rally in my home state of PA yesterday (and no, I don't follow this person on Twitter, just grabbed the clip). Is this something we're OK with as Christians?

Trump: Do you think Springfield will ever be the same? You have to get them the h*** out. You have to get them out. I'm sorry, but get 'em out. Can't have it. Can't have it.

Crowd: *chants send them back*

What does that have to do with the question of whether the stories about eating pets and animals from local parks are true? I've not heard anyone at SI defend the President's rhetoric at his pep rallies.