A Year in the Life of a Disordered World

No doubt there are people on both sides of the debate about whether or not the vaccine should have been mandated but it was still an authoritarian move. I will grant that there are times that a president should make authoritarian moves (we obviously disagree about whether or not the vaccine was such a time), but to equate promoting a vaccine to mandating a vaccine is what is truly confusing to me. Basically what I am saying is that I can understand why you would argue in favor of that authoritarian move even if I strongly disagree- I just do not want anyone saying that it was not an authoritarian move.

You need to define "authoritarian". We live in a democratic world that is governed by laws. A duly elected president nominated a Secretary of Defense who was confirmed by Congress. The Secretary of Defense provided guidelines that were consistent with past guidelines on the use of vaccines in the military. Because we live in a democracy, they could be challenged by the 3rd branch of government, the judicial. They were. Various courts and appeal court rulings were inconsistent and thus sent to the Supreme Court. The mandate was rescinded as a result of an initial Supreme Court reading. To me no one stepped way outside of their bounds, and checks that were put in place worked. Each branch pushes itself and is kept in check by other branches. Authoritarian indicates more of a rule by one person. But obviously Biden was able to rule unimpeded. There was no political repression and challenges were able to be put forth. This is direct contrast to how China, and specifically President Xi, mandated things. That was an example of an authoritarian move.

If we keep authoritarian too broadly, than we risk that everything is authoritarian. Taxes, laws, military..... it is all authoritarian at some level.

But obviously Biden was able to rule unimpeded.

I believe you meant to say "Biden was not able to rule unimpeded." Your whole post was a good explanation of why I said "true authoritarian regime" was a hyperbole. Biden made some decisions that were authoritarian and he likely hoped to make more, but our American system is not a true authoritarian regime no matter which party controls the presidency.

Beyond mandating an ineffective vaccine for a segment of the population that didn't need it in the military, Biden mandated it for private businesses under penalty of fines for the business and potential unemployment for the individual.

Given the history of the military and vaccines, I could understand mandating the COVID vaccine for those who serve if they were 55+, overweight, and beset with risk factors like high blood pressure and diabetes. Given, then, that the vast majority of the military doesn't fit that criteria (that must be a revelation to some), mandating it was nothing other than an anti-scientific power play (aka it was authoritarian). Don't even bother bringing up trying to control the spread of the virus with the vaccine. That's simply a tired canard.

And are we now pretending that if SCOTUS was majority Democrat-appointed, they would have put the kibosh to Biden's authoritarian endeavors? You're kidding yourself.

And as JD has aptly pointed out, encouraging the vaccine is on a whole different level than mandating it. I struggle to understand how that is confusing to anyone. It's almost like a purposeful obfuscation of the facts. But it makes Trump look just as bad, so it must be ok, right?

Are we ignoring the firing and prosecution of Biden's enemies as evidence of his authoritarian tendencies? Or can you find more whatsboutisms that show that the Bad Orange Man did the same thing?

Are we ignoring the firing and prosecution of Biden's enemies as evidence of his authoritarian tendencies?

I haven't denied that he has authoritarian tendencies. I am denying that any of your presented examples of authoritarianism would cause me to believe that the US entered into a "real authoritarian regime" when Biden became president. Hyperbole usually does have some truth behind it, but it's an exaggeration, often used to provoke some sort of reaction. In my opinion, someone who uses this type of exaggeration is trying to provoke fear.

Or can you find more whatsboutisms that show that the Bad Orange Man did the same thing?

What's with the "Bad Orange Man" comment? I haven't referred to him that way in this thread. I think that's a disrespectful way to refer to a former president. Sure, some critics may have used that designation, but not every critic of Trump, especially those who've posted in this thread, is going to think of Trump as the "Bad Orange Man."

As far as "whataboutisms" go, I was under the impression you were fine with them after you wrote this paragraph - "Biden's DOJ clearly doesn't consider Douglass Mackey's meme as election interference. If they did, they would have applied the same standard to Kristina Wong. This is partisan application of the law, not justice. The DOJ is clearly OK with certain kinds of "election interference," as long as it's conducted against the right candidate."

We were discussing Douglass Mackey, and you turned it around to "whatabout" Kristina Wong. I think anyone who breaks the law should be prosecuted. We shouldn't give one person a pass just because someone else hasn't been charged yet.

"And as JD has aptly pointed out, encouraging the vaccine is on a whole different level than mandating it. I struggle to understand how that is confusing to anyone"

17 different vaccines are mandated to military regardless of a profile they may fit. Why is this such a big issue? The commander in chief mandated one extra vaccine that is safe to the military.

"The military has mandated vaccines since the very beginning of the country. George Washington required the US military to get smallpox inoculation. Something much more dangerous than the actual vaccine created 19 years later. Today the military is required to get 9 vaccines. Some which have been shown to be more dangerous than the COVID vaccines. Depending on your type of service you could be required to get 8 more vaccines. Soldiers could request exemption from the COVID vaccine, just as they do with the other 17 vaccines that they need to take. Not sure how this is an over reach of the Biden administration."

Quick point of clarity-Soldiers could "request" exemption, but having been in a number of women's facebook groups where this was being discussed during the vaccine push I happen to know that many of the men who submitted exemption forms were essentially told "take it or you will be given a dishonorable discharge.."
Someone I know personally was pregnant and due to give birth imminently. Her husband's exemption was refused, and then he was told that if he did not comply by a set date he was going to be essentially incarcerated and would not be allowed to attend his first child's birth. The "penalty" for refusing to be vaccinated was too great for their family to bear.

Their story was not the only one like that.

Well lets be honest. The military is voluntary. Vaccines have been mandated for a long time. The military tells you where to live, what to eat, and what to do. If you are not in favor of authoritarianism, than you probably don’t want to take on a job in the military.

I would like to see the story of the incarceration for not taking the vaccine. The military order did not include any judicial punishment, so. I am surprised at something like an incarceration that you mention above. Given the fact that the solider in the forum had already received 8 vaccines, some that had greater side effects than COVID ever had, seems a bit surprising that they are against the COVID vaccine. I have heard a lot of people say because it hasn’t been tested, but the vaccine had been tested and no significant side effects had been found. I know that some people have argued that it really only helps someone with certain conditions. But that is true for all of the vaccines that the military administers. No case of Polio has existed in the US since 1979, yet the military requires a Polio vaccine.

I haven't denied that he has authoritarian tendencies. I am denying that any of your presented examples of authoritarianism would cause me to believe that the US entered into a "real authoritarian regime" when Biden became president.

I used a poor choice of words. I should have said that he has exercised authoritarian actions, which have been a defining characteristic of his regime.

We were discussing Douglass Mackey, and you turned it around to "whatabout" Kristina Wong. I think anyone who breaks the law should be prosecuted. We shouldn't give one person a pass just because someone else hasn't been charged yet.

You have an unfortunate misconception of "whataboutisms." A whataboutism typically is used to defect, distract or change the subject. The whole point of my bringing up Douglass Mackey was to get to Kristina Wong. She was not a deflection. She was the absolute focal point of the argument, to drive readers to the conclusion that the government is punishing the "crimes" of its enemies, while overlooking the "crimes" of its allies.

While polio is not a clear and present danger, the well-established, effective polio vaccine is administered to prevent its recurrence. Polio would be a major threat to those who serve in the armed forces.

Is Covid a major potential threat to our armed forces? Uh, no. The risk to young, physically fit soldiers is infinitesimally small. Beyond that, the experimental Covid vaccine's efficacy was spotty at best. The comparison is ridiculous.

The commander in chief mandated one extra vaccine that is safe to completely unnecessary for the military.

Fixed it for you.

I would like to see the story of the incarceration for not taking the vaccine. The military order did not include any judicial punishment, so. I am surprised at something like an incarceration that you mention above.

The individual in question is a personal friend of mine. I have a few others with similar, though not identical stories. They don't know one another.
I will not be further engaging you on this nor putting you in contact with my friend. Your mind is made up.
No use us going back and forth.

The data is pretty clear now. The vaccine saved lives. I really don't understand the hesitancy regarding this vaccine, unless you are anti-vax in general.

https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/united-states-rates-of-covid-19-deaths-by-vaccination-status

And here is a study from the State of Washington that also includes hospital rates:

https://doh.wa.gov/sites/default/files/2022-02/421-010-CasesInNotFullyVaccinated.pdf

I really don't understand the hesitancy regarding this vaccine, unless you are anti-vax in general.

I was not that worried about the vaccine when it came out, but my brother suggested it was smart to "wait and see." As I waited and watched we saw multiple people having strokes and heart attacks right after taking it. Was it a coincidence? I cannot answer that for certain, but it explains why many are hesitant. Add to that reading here on SI that one of the posters who is also a moderator and pro Covid vaccine said that he had chest pains after taking it. This was right around the time my wife's step grandma had a heart attack when she took the vaccine.

I cannot say for certain that the Covid vaccine is more dangerous than getting Covid, but I do know that people who got the vaccine got Covid anyway while those of us who did not get the vaccine did not get Covid again after the first time until the Omocron variant came in. Our family got Covid in March of 2020 and the data was already showing that natural immunity was stronger than the vaccine. Since I had already had Covid by the time the vaccine came out, I saw no reason to further stress my body with a vaccine that had some questions about safety and efficacy.

I get it, some of you have no questions, but other experts do have questions. The fact that someone has confidence about something does not make it true. I'm not offended that any of you feel safe about it, I just want you to show grace toward those who do not have your same level of confidence. It is possible they are right and it is possible they are wrong, but let us set aside pride and replace it with grace.

I am not asking anyone to agree that the Covid vaccine is a bad idea. I am simply asking that people show grace toward those who have been hesitant to take the vaccine.

>>I really don’t understand the hesitancy regarding this vaccine, unless you are anti-vax in general.<<

Simple. I’m for vaccines that stop something with high percentages of really bad consequences, like smallpox, anthrax, rabies, polio, etc.

I have never gotten the chicken pox vaccine (and wouldn’t even if I hadn’t had the disease as a child), and I didn’t sign my kids up for that one.

I have now had Covid twice, and my wife 3 times. My wife got the vaccine only because she had to to visit her mom in Germany. That was before the last two times she got Covid. I was required to for work, also before the last time I got the disease. Both of us got the J&J vaccine, which was based on decades-old technology, rather than the relatively untested mRNA vaccines. I would reserve taking mRNA for something like cancer or other serious condition where I had no other choice. Covid was not in that category.

They even told me when I got the J&J that that vaccine was “no longer recommended,” but I replied that I was doing it because I was required to, rather than because I wanted it, and the tech completely understood. My employer allowed religious exemptions, but I couldn’t honestly claim that that was the reason I didn’t want it.

From my point of view, the numbers are still suspect due to the many people counted who died “with Covid” rather than “from Covid,” so I don’t know the actual death/serious injury rate, but it’s very small compared with really dangerous diseases like those I listed above, particularly if you are not in the high-risk groups. That’s reason enough for me to not to take it. However, if I get bitten by an animal tomorrow, I certainly will be signing up for rabies vaccinations.

It’s really just a simple risk/reward calculation, that’s all.

From my point of view, the numbers are still suspect due to the many people counted who died “with Covid” rather than “from Covid,” so I don’t know the actual death/serious injury rate,

So, the numbers I presented were for the US and all ages but you could look and find similar findings for countries across the globe, and state by state the same thing. For the numbers to be suspect, all the states data and that of other countries would all have to erroneous -- every state department of health, every university medical research center, every national health institution, and the same for every other country. Was everyone counting incorrectly? Is there a data source you would trust?

BTW, I think we all wanted a vaccine that would completely prevent covid, but that appeared to be a tougher problem to solve given the variants of the virus.