Can Volunteering Replace Tithing? Pastors & Church Members Disagree

[Jim] ​

• • Wally’s error is that he thinks of the church as a building [goto be in it on Wednesday night] instead of a body of people

Is that what Wally is saying? I don’t think he is. I don’t think it is right to mischaracterize someone else’s arguments and call them error.

Here is what I see Wally saying:

1. Corporate prayer is a duty of the body
2. Corporate prayer can be achieved a number of ways (my note: some alternatives to a physical meeting have been mentioned here and are ways in which a local church could legitimately fulfil that duty)
3. Many churches (note, including mine) have established a mid-week service for the purpose - it is a legitimate way of fulfilling the duty
4. Many modern Christians are “too tired” or “too busy” to attend the mid-week service the local church has legitmately set up, but they are apparently not “too tired” or “too busy” to go to sports or entertainment on the same evening, sometimes regularly so, sometimes occasionally
5. Those modern Christians making that excuse really are failing to fulfill the duty

If a local church chooses to fulfill the duty ANY other way, great. That’s fine for the local church. Suppose in a local church that uses one of those other means finds that some or many members are “too tired” or “too busy” to attend an extra half hour on Sunday, or a small group, or to pick up and pray for the distributed prayer list, or what have you… what then? What do we say about those “too tired” and “too busy” members, especially if they aren’t too tired or too busy to do something else in the time the local church has alloted for this duty?

I can speak for my wife and me and for those I’ve spoken too. The majority of the people we know aren’t too tired or too busy for Wednesday evening. They have just discovered that small groups are more convenient and profitable. The churches I’ve observed who’ve opted for small groups over Wednesday nights actually have more people in those prayer meetings than Wednesday evenings, are developing stronger relationships with one another, and are cultivating leaders. Instead of one prayer meeting a week they may have three or more. That’s also convenient for members who work jobs that involve shift work. These folks can choose which prayer meeting works for them around their work schedule.

Did I tell you about the youth apologetics mini-conference I set up and put on? I had an apologetics guy from Maranatha (now a NT guy at Detroit) come down, and together we did a one-day conference for dozens of teens. We allowed them to ask questions about anything and had a great time. You know what happened? At the end of it, a foolish adult chaperone from another church privately pulled my pastor aside and asked him to rebuke me, because he “thought” I quoted from the NKJV at one point.

Some people are born stupid. Others become that way. I’m not sure what category that man fits into, but he fits into one of them …

[Don Johnson]

• Many modern Christians are “too tired” or “too busy” to attend the mid-week service the local church has legitmately set up, but they are apparently not “too tired” or “too busy” to go to sports or entertainment on the same evening, sometimes regularly so, sometimes occasionally
• Those modern Christians making that excuse really are failing to fulfill the duty

Agreed on the corporate prayer as I so noted above

The pastor omniscient: He knows who’s there and if not where they are. And he knows their heart too!

Dial it back

[Ron Bean]

I can speak for my wife and me and for those I’ve spoken too. The majority of the people we know aren’t too tired or too busy for Wednesday evening. They have just discovered that small groups are more convenient and profitable. The churches I’ve observed who’ve opted for small groups over Wednesday nights actually have more people in those prayer meetings than Wednesday evenings, are developing stronger relationships with one another, and are cultivating leaders. Instead of one prayer meeting a week they may have three or more. That’s also convenient for members who work jobs that involve shift work. These folks can choose which prayer meeting works for them around their work schedule.

That’s fine, Ron. Each local church decides for itself (one way or another) what works best for them. But two things: your experience (“The majority of the people we know”) is insufficient data to make a blanket statement that your way is the only way to go. I don’t know that you are taking that kind of position, but your experience is just your experience. Good for you if it works for you. Second, I think you all are trying to put words in Wally’s mouth on the one hand and attacking his preference in this area on the other. The Bible doesn’t mandate *any* way of organizing church meetings. This is an area that is entirely under the auspices and circumstances of a local church.

Let’s drop the hatchets, I don’t get why this has to be an adversarial conversation.

I hope I haven’t been misinterpreted. I meant to simply state my preference for the small group model over the once a week prayer meeting. I’m sorry I put people on the defensive if they felt I was attacking the once a week model. I’ve been around long enough that I should have realized that stating strong preferences can be misunderstood by those holding an opposite view.

Average (mean) household income:

“Overall, the mean household income in the United States, according to the US Census Bureau 2014 Annual Social and Economic Supplement, was $72,641.” - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Household_income_in_the_United_States

Value of an hour of volunteer time:

“The estimated value of volunteer time for 2016 is $24.14 per hour, according to Independent Sector, a coalition of charities, foundations, corporations, and individuals that publishes research important to the nonprofit sector.” - http://grantspace.org/tools/knowledge-base/Nonprofit-Management/Employment-Volunteering/monetary-value-of-volunteer-time

(The data above is from different years, but let’s work with it.)

Presuming that 10% is the tithe percentage assumed in the Op article (let’s not get bogged down in what percentage “tithe” refers to), the average household’s annual tithe would work out to be $7,264.10.

Divided by the $24.14 hourly value provided for volunteer time, for a family of average income to substitute volunteer time for this dollar amount (per the OP article) would necessitate approximately 301 annual hours of volunteering in the church, or approximately 5 hours and 48 minutes per week.

Larry, good point, but remember that most families pay the first 30% or so of their income in taxes, so the equivalent would be somewhere around 3.5 hours per week. Between being on mowing crew, snow removal crew, and the kids helping with VBS, AWANA, nursery, and the like, my family is clearly in the clear here!

(don’t worry, pastor, just a rhetorical exercise)

Seriously, this is where 2 Cor. 9:6-7 comes to mind for me; there is real joy in contributing to the cause of Christ, so if I’m making that tight of an analysis of my time and money, I’m clearly missing the point.

I suppose this means that the Christian school tuition I paid for my children can’t count as tithe money? How about the new Bible I purchased? (I’ve seen both.)

[Bert Perry]

Larry, good point, but remember that most families pay the first 30% or so of their income in taxes, so the equivalent would be somewhere around 3.5 hours per week. Between being on mowing crew, snow removal crew, and the kids helping with VBS, AWANA, nursery, and the like, my family is clearly in the clear here!

(don’t worry, pastor, just a rhetorical exercise)

Seriously, this is where 2 Cor. 9:6-7 comes to mind for me; there is real joy in contributing to the cause of Christ, so if I’m making that tight of an analysis of my time and money, I’m clearly missing the point.

….just an exercise in quantifying what this might look like in practice.

This weekend I dropped my bi-weekly (my pay frequency) check into the offering, and I also served in four volunteer positions in church (during Sat. evening & Sunday morning) that added up to six-and-a-half hours. So I guess I’m good either way, right? =)

What about a pastor paying ministry expenses out of pocket and instead of being reinbursed by the church and he just deducts it from his tithe and then deducts it on his taxes as an expense?

When I was farming I tithed corn instead of cash. The accountant told me that as long as the church treasurer decided when it was sold, then I did not have to claim that corn as income. I was better off taking the standard charitable deduction on taxes and then having my total income reduced by giving corn instead of cash. The treasurer just said to sell it as soon as it was delivered to the elevator (the place where grain is sold for you city folks). I always delivered it there when I gifted it. I did not bring it to the church parking lot :).

[JD Miller]

When I was farming I tithed corn instead of cash. The accountant told me that as long as the church treasurer decided when it was sold, then I did not have to claim that corn as income. I was better off taking the standard charitable deduction on taxes and then having my total income reduced by giving corn instead of cash. The treasurer just said to sell it as soon as it was delivered to the elevator (the place where grain is sold for you city folks). I always delivered it there when I gifted it. I did not bring it to the church parking lot :).

Certainly practiced in the Bible: lots of references to giving/tithing from/of crops, livestock, etc. (in your example, converted to cash for later receipt at the church).

Also practiced in earlier times/decades in (especially rural) America. My parents are old enough to remember farmers in their rural churches supplying their pastors with in-kind donations (meat, vegetables….) in lieu of a full pastoral salary, particularly during the Great Depression.

As the Usher Captain of one of our weekend service times, I’m not sure how it would work in practice if today someone decided to bring the first fruits of, say, their cattle to church. (We’re a suburban church, but we do have some farmers in the congregation who drive in from rural areas.) Our drop safe (similar to this one):

http://www.globalindustrial.com/p/storage/safes-security/depository-drop-safes/b-rate-depository-safe-front-loading-digital-lock-20w-x-20d-x-30h?infoParam.campaignId=T9F&gclid=EAIaIQobChMInqvywJLX1QIVirbACh3RHwQzEAkYBCABEgJVaPD_BwE )

just isn’t suitable for a cow, or even a chicken. =)

This will be my last post on this discussion.

Bert referred to people who are tired of sitting still and not allowed to participate. I would think that during small group studies people are sitting down. I have never prohibited people from “participating” in any Bible study I have taught. In fact, I strongly encourage participation, questions, interaction, and discussion. Teen and adult small group Sunday School is a perfect opportunity for participation, yet many Christians won’t come to Sunday School. Yes, encourage people to have Bible studies in their homes, but why do these “studies” have to replace Sunday School? I wonder just how many small group meetings we need during the week. Many churches have cancelled Sunday night and Wednesday night and replaced them with small groups. Yet some of the same people who are so enthusiastic about small groups in homes won’t come to Sunday School in church, which can be an excellent small group discipleship and evangelistic tool. So why the bias against Sunday School? Is it the name “Sunday School” that people are uncomfortable with? Then change the name but keep the format. During all these small group meetings, where are the children and teenagers? When someone has a small group Bible study and prayer time in someone’s home, where are the children and teens? Do they participate, or is this “small group” only for adults? If they participate, then why can’t they participate at church as well? We have fragmented the church into so many age groups and so many individual and home activities that the church hardly meets as one assembly anymore. Many churches separate children and teenagers from adults not only during Sunday School but also during AM worship. Add to this structure all the home Bible studies, and the church rarely meets together as one assembly anymore. I am not advocating dismantling age-specific ministries. I am just questioning, even challenging, the fragmentation of our churches. Our church includes children (above a certain age) and teenagers with the adults in prayer meeting. I’ve seen children grow up listening to the adults pray, eventually praying with us, and grow in their knowledge of praying by watching & listening to the adults. I’ve seen them mature by being with the mature. This is a great way for trans-generational, cross-generational influence and teaching.

The issue I am concerned about is not the method of making disciples. My critique is WHY churches cancel Sunday night and Wednesday night. The closest explanation I’ve found in this discussion is that those meetings aren’t “working”. If by “working” we mean people don’t come, then find out why people don’t come. The reasons I hear from people have nothing to do with small groups or discipleship. They reasons are simple: They just don’t want to come. They would rather stay home or go to secular events. Thankfully, in our church, the people who have these views are a small number. But they do exist. I suspect that in larger churches those numbers may be much higher. I don’t see very many people probing as to WHY people don’t come to Sunday School, Sunday night, prayer meeting. I see assumptions that the problem is “out-dated” structures, but where has that been proven?

Somewhere, sometime churches gradually replaced prayer meeting with activities. In the process, we now have many Christians who are not comfortable praying with other people but are quite comfortable playing fun games at church during “outreach” activities. During these small group meetings, what kind of praying is done? Are the requests/interests mainly on those present, or is there an attempt to include the needs of the entire church? How do these small groups find out about the needs of the entire church? Do churches which do not have a prayer meeting at church have a method for informing these small groups of ALL the prayer needs? One advantage of meeting at the church to pray is that everyone hears the requests of everyone else at the same time, and therefore everyone knows at the same time what the needs are. Also: Missionary needs are shared at the same time with everyone. I make multiple copies of recent missionary updates and give them out. I also put them as inserts in the weekly Sunday “bulletin”. In these small groups, how is the church’s entire missionary ministry shared with all the small groups? How much praying actually occurs or is the time spent in “small talk” with a little praying added as time runs out?

“One another” ministry can certainly occur in small groups, but can’t it also occur in large groups like Sunday School and prayer meeting at church? Why do we assume that small group studies are inherently more “efficient” or conducive to “one another” ministry? Efficient in what way? If people can drive to different homes, then why can’t people drive to one location, the church building? Certainly meeting in homes is more informal and comfortable but also requires a lot of work and planning, which is fine if people want to do that work and planning.

Again: The concern I have is not with small groups nor with small group prayer meetings at individual homes. My great concern is with churches cancelling prayer meeting at church and Sunday Night church because people just won’t come. And most of the reasons people won’t come has nothing to do with preferring small groups. The reasons are entirely secular and selfish: would rather go to a basketball game, shopping, cut grass, work in the garden, play games on the computer, too tired from my over-commited life, etc. This IS what is happening in many churches, and substituting small groups in an attempt to counteract this decline will not solve the fundamental problem of growing secular attitudes among Christians. Do we need to be sensitive to busy schedules? Of course. I purposely keep formal church activities to a minimum and watch the clock while we are at church out of respect for people’s time. But when people say they are too busy to come to church on Sunday night or prayer meetng during the week, but then have the time to go to a sports event or shopping, that’s when I question what is really happening in our churches.

My being a member of the FBFI has nothing to do with this discussion. No relevancy at all.

Contrary to Jim: I do not think of the church body as a physical building. I have said the opposite. Could a church send out a prayer list to fulfill Biblical principles about praying? Of course. We do. But why should that substitute for meeting together in 1 place as a gathered church to pray together? Situations exist in remote areas where this practice would be a good idea, hard to get everyone together other than Sunday because of distance, etc. But most churches in America do not have that problem. The problem is not distance, but simply refusal to come. If we are not seeing that, then we are deceiving ourselves.

Tyler stated that his church’s Wednesday prayer meeting doesn’t “go well”. That relates to my fundamental point: WHY isn’t it “going well”? Is the problem the structure of the meeting, length, not getting benefit & help, etc.? If so, then make some changes to the structure and see what happens. If the problem is that people just don’t want to come because they would rather cut grass, then changing the structure of the meeting will not solve that problem. I keep stressing this because that seems to be the response many churches make to declining attendance at various activities: “The problem must be us, so let’s cancel and have something else that people will come to”, hoping that people will come when the real problem is not what the church is doing but instead Christians who are quite content with Sunday morning church and the other 6 ½ days are theirs to do whatever they like.

Persecution may indeed force changes in how we here in America structure our church services and other activities. But we are not there yet and hope we never will be. But until that time, I will use the freedom we have to continue Sunday School, Sunday night, & prayer meeting. They are good structures for discipleship. If Christians are too busy to come to Sunday School or prayer meeting, or would rather go shopping or cut grass than go to prayer meeting, then I doubt these Christians will endure very well under persecution either.

I am not “omniscient” and have never claimed nor acted as such. What I know is based on what I personally see and what people tell me themselves. I appreciate someone stating their beliefs as “strong preferences”. All of us have “strong preferences”. As Don has stated, each church decides for itself what they want to do and what works best for them. That’s what local church autonomy is. My MAIN CONCERN is the reasons churches give for cancelling Sunday night and prayer meeting where the church meets at the church for an organized prayer meeting. These reasons don’t seem to be hitting the real problem, which is a growing individualistic, secular attitude among many Christians which produces an unwillingness to participate in activities that involve more than just a few close friends and to participate in activities which actually require them to drive to church more than once a week and give up more than 1 hour on Sunday morning. Small group meetings can certainly be beneficial and give people the feeling of participation and closeness. But they also tend to add to the fragmentation of local churches.

Regarding the original topic of this discussion: If a church is going to have a building, teaching materials, evangelistic materials, and other characteristics of most churches in America, then that church is going to need cash and need people to give that cash. If people want to give corn, etc and have that turned into cash, no problem. If a church wants a pastor available when needed, that church will have to pay him something to help him & his family to live. Bi-vocational pastors (working a secular job as well as pastor) certainly has its place, as long as individuals in a church understand that the pastor may not always be available when they expect. Many pastors (not all of course) who are bi-vocational wish they didn’t have to be. It has advantages and disadvantages. Because of our sin nature, it is very easy to rationalize not giving money but volunteering time instead. People play games on this issue and convince themselves they can’t give any money to the church but are willing to volunteer time. But as Larry demonstrated, that could mean several hours every week. I don’t think people will do that once they realize the amount of time it would involve. And will they be honest about that time, truly insuring that their volunteer time fits all the Biblical principles of giving. If some wish to return to the “NT practices”, then return to all the NT practices, not just a select few that are convenient or seem romantically nostalgic for the “better days of the 1st century church”.

I appreciate this discussion from all involved. Perhaps what has been discussed here will be beneficial to some.

….or it can be a problem with what we’ve created. As Deming is said to have said, “Every system is perfectly designed to get the results it gets”, and he’s said to have told Ford executives that 85% of their quality problems were right there in the room with him; in other words, your results start with your management.

Ford got the message, and today, their 8D method for resolving quality issues is standard in many industries for issues not requiring longer term Six Sigma DMAIC analysis. It works, and one of the features is Sakichi Toyoda’s (founder of Toyota) “five whys” analysis. Let’s give it a try.

Problem: people are not coming to prayer meeting.

Why? Well, they’re more interested in the ballgame, or GOT, or something else out there in the world.

Why?

Now I’m not going to answer that second why, but Toyoda noted that it often took five times asking the question to get close to the root cause. I’d add as well that you may have several paths to investigate. That noted, the quickest way to get to “your 8D is rejected” in a place that uses them is to blame the workers.