Can Volunteering Replace Tithing? Pastors & Church Members Disagree

The sarcastic tones are unnecessary and betray a shocking unawareness of fundamental secular problems among many Christians today. When people won’t come to a church’s prayer meeting but will instead go regularly to sports events on the same night, that is selfish secularism. When Christians will take their children to AWANA or other youth activities but not take their children & teens to a prayer meeting to learn how to pray from other Christians, that betrays misunderstanding of essential spiritual growth issues. I find it shocking that I am having to defend prayer meeting to those who claim to be Bible-believing Christians. I have never said that a prayer service must be built around a sermon. If some in this discussion have been burnt out by what they call “rectangle church”, I am sorry for that, but that doesn’t mean everyone else has that problem. I have never used “guilt” to increase attendance at any event or service. Guilt motivates only as long as people feel guilty - It’s a short-term and bad tool. If some have used guilt to get people to come to church, don’t assume everyone else does too. What I do is what any person in pastoral ministry should do: teach, pray, talk, try to convince, pray some more, make what we do at church the best it can be, & pray some more..

One of the most common reasons I hear from people is “I’m so busy”. If that is the real reason, then cancelling certain ministries and substituting others won’t attract them. If they would rather go to a basketball game than prayer meeting, cancelling prayer meeting won’t attract them. If they would rather work in their garden or cut grass on Sunday evening than come to church, cancelling Sunday night church and having a small group study won’t attract them.

Bible studies in dorms are a great tool, but they don’t have to replace a particular ministry of a church. If taught properly, small group studies are helpful, assuming the study is actually the Bible and not some book about the Bible. Many, maybe most, small group studies are more about someone’s book than the Bible.

Several times people have told me that they almost didn’t come to a Sunday night service because they were tired but they came anyway and were glad they did because the singing & the message/study from the Bible turned out to be exactly what they needed - They left not as tired because of Isaiah 40:31. Christians in some other countries would love to have the freedom that we throw away.

As far as “church-centric model of ministry”: The building is only a convenient tool for the assembly of believers to meet together at the same time and place. I am “church-centric” in the sense that “church” = “believers”, and ministry is always built around discipleship of believers for growth and evangelism. The building is a tool we have the freedom to use openly, so we use it. The building is the convenient place for the entire assembly to worship together. It has nothing to do with Baptists, Constantine, or anyone else. If people wish to return to 1st century practices, then go ahead. Begin first by selling your properties and pooling your money.

The tone of some comments in this discussion bother me greatly.

I wasn’t referring to your comments at all. I was just adding a humorous response to Bert, with some help from Dr. Emmett L. Brown. Honest.

Prayer Meetings are when God’s people gather together to pray. I would dare to say that my experience with small groups has exposed me to more prayer than any mid-week service. It has also increased the number of members involved in praying as well as building relationships as we meet around the throne of grace. While I know of one church that meets Wednesday evening, has a brief message, and then prays till the last person leaves—sometimes 2 1/2 hours—a lot of churches I’ve been in have more preaching/teaching and prayer requests than praying. If I were a pastor today I would rather know that the majority of my membership is meeting for prayer at various times during the week than gathering on one night.

As to the “busyness” of the people, few I know are spending their evenings in recreation or watching TV. Most work long days, perhaps 10-12 hours with commuting time thrown in. I think the assumption that churches without a mid-week prayer meeting are caving to the member’s love for recreation and relaxation is faulty.

Ron: I’m sorry your experience with church-wide prayer meetings has been so terrible. I’m not against people meeting in homes/small groups for study and prayer. I think that’s great. But why does that have to exclude and eliminate weekly meetings where the entire church meets for praying? Many today are so concerned about the church being fragmented into different groups and interests, so why not have a regular/weekly time when the entire church meets to pray as a gathered church? I don’t see why so many object to that and resist that. In fact, I find it strange. If you have been part of churches where the prayer meeting regularly lasts 2 1/2 hours, then someone needs to change that structure and respect people’s time. I make sure that our Bible study is brief (15 minutes maximum) and prayer time over at a reasonable time so people can get home & put the children to sleep for school, etc. As far as building relationships, I’ve seen it develop at church prayer meeting as men and women meet in groups of 2 or 3 to pray. To say it can only happen in small groups outside of church is erroneous.

My statement about people being busy is not an assumption - People have told me that is their reason. Additionally, I never made the connection between no prayer meeting and caving in to recreation and relaxation. What I said was people say they can’t come to prayer meeting at church but somehow find the time to go to sports events or other events, even shopping. Not an assumption. I’ve seen it with my own eyes. Or course if someone is working long hours, etc that will create problems with attendance. No problem with that. But I’m not talking about that. I’m talking about people who take their family to other events during prayer meeting time, but can’t find the time to ever come to prayer meeting. Something is wrong with that.

Again, I am bothered that I am having to defend church-wide prayer meeting. I find it astounding.

[WallyMorris]

Again, I am bothered that I am having to defend church-wide prayer meeting. I find it astounding.

Why? I am astounded that you are astounded. If a church can make more and better disciples without having a Wednesday PM service, then you should rejoice for that church and not feel like that is an attack on your preference for a Wednesday PM service. The problem is, you feel having a Wednesday PM service is not a preference but a necessity. In so many words you’ve stated that churches that don’t have one are accommodating to and encouraging people’s carnality.

I thought you didn’t use guilt and shame, Wally?

Again, I am bothered that I am having to defend church-wide prayer meeting.

Aren’t you actually defending a mid-week prayer service rather than a church-wide prayer meeting? If the church meets in small groups that pray, then that is a church-wide prayer meeting is it not, even though they aren’t all in one place?

Is there a biblical reason that necessitates gathering everyone in one place to pray? Or is it biblically acceptable for people to pray in small groups? I would presume in your mid-week prayer service, you divide up into smaller groups to pray together at times, don’t you? Is that more biblical because they are spread out over one room instead over a city?

I have no dog in the fight, so to speak. I don’t care whether churches meet all together in one place to pray or whether they meet in people’s home in smaller groups to pray. When a church is praying that seems to be a good thing.

Perhaps my enthusiasm for small groups has made some uncomfortable, but that’s OK. If churches pastors prefer to have a mid week service for prayer, that’s fine. I’m just saying that I think the small group model is more efficient.

There are two great advantages of the small group. It promotes the “one another” activity that is exhorted in the New Testament and it is a tool for developing future leaders in the church.

Wally, the lightheartedness is all in fun, and is not trying to make fun of you at all—though I can understand a bit of irritation if you’re a member of FBFI or something. (and FBFI can end all of this fun in an instant by defining “convergent” clearly and speaking clearly of why certain things qualify, but I digress)

And it’s better to speak of “church building centric” than “church centric” in what I’m getting at—point about church being the people is well taken. But in your case, what we’ve got is people coming together four times a week at the church house to hear Wally speak, more or less. Now do the “secularists” see Christ, or Wally, in this?

I’m not saying that you’re trying to do this, but if they see you too consistently, they are going to see….you. Another reason why it’s important to hand the keys to one of those other men from time to time.

[WallyMorris]

When people won’t come to a church’s prayer meeting but will instead go regularly to sports events on the same night, that is selfish secularism. When Christians will take their children to AWANA or other youth activities but not take their children & teens to a prayer meeting to learn how to pray from other Christians, that betrays misunderstanding of essential spiritual growth issues. I find it shocking that I am having to defend prayer meeting to those who claim to be Bible-believing Christians.

Corporative prayer is mandatory for the local church: Romans 15:30

• Written to a local church
• w Apostolic authority
• “I urge you” is “entreat” / “beseech” / “exhort” [the main verb: while not an Greek imperative has the force of (present active)]
• “brethren” is plural!
• “to strive together with me” : hapax legomenon / συναγωνίζομαι

Notes:

• Paul is not saying : “pray with me where I am” / b/c he wasn’t with them … he is writing to them
• He is saying: “pray with me” - as a church body
• Conclusion:
  • Corporative prayer is mandatory for the local church
  • Any local church could obey this by sending out a weekly (or daily if they wanted) prayer list to the body
  • Wally’s error is that he thinks of the church as a building [goto be in it on Wednesday night] instead of a body of people

I apologize for starting this rabbit-trail on “four services per week.” I was only making a point that the pastor’s salary is a large part of the budget, but it doesn’t have to be, because the “solo pastor/four services per week” model isn’t necessarily the best or only way to do things, and I think economics in the West will put an end to that model in the coming decades.

On Wednesdays - this isn’t the best or only way to accomplish corporate prayer. Why not expand the Sunday AM service by 30 minutes and have corporate prayer after the sermon? We need to be willing to step outside ourselves and think about this. My church has a Wed prayer service that doesn’t go well. We’d be better served by expanding Sunday AM for corporate prayer. But, the constitution says we must have a Wed service. How silly!

Can Volunteering Replace Tithing? Pastors and Church Members Disagree:

• As someone noted above - you can’t pay the utility bill with an apple pie!
• The Christian should give TIME, TALENT, and TENDER to his church
• Time + Talent = volunteer service

One problem is that larger churches often hire out the labor and thus minimize the opportunities for volunteerism. In these cases cash contributions are preferred to the literal contribution to a cause.

When I was a baby Christian, my pastor (Howard Sugden at South Baptist of Lansing MI) noted that when he and his wife were just starting out, he was routinely blessed by congregants bringing a pickup load of firewood or bags of one kind of food or another. I believe this is also a great part of how Methodist circuit riders kept their ribs from sticking out back when Methodists were orthodox. So getting back to the original question, I’d argue this is how the church has historically operated. Paul asks for his cloak and parchments, not money, no? And I’d guess those around him would be bringing in food—historically prisons have not actually fed inmates, but rather the families of the inmates.

So with due respect to the situation with the offerings provided for Jerusalem described in 2 Cor. 9, I’d have to wonder if the huge preference for monetary donations really stems more (again) from Constantine and state support for the church—where the people who actually had coins to speak of would have been the princes.

Advice to brand new Christians:

• Find a place to serve in your local church
• Give something regularly
• Increase your giving as you are able
• Know your church’s needs
• Live simply
• Invest in eternity

I’m afraid to say anything about Ron. He and I seem to have lived parallel lives. If I call him a “convergent,” it may disrupt the space/time continuum, and create a time paradox, the results of which could cause a chain reaction that would unravel the very fabric of the space time continuum, and destroy the entire universe!

Hold up, there, Tyler. Our numbers are very few and we’ll take whatever convergents we can get. After all, we are out to destroy all of Fundamentalism (or something like that anyway)…

Besides, I’m the ‘chief convergent’, so I get to make these decisions anyway. My decision is that Ron can stay and you are being very close to being thrown out.

As an aside, I’m working on black hooded robes and secret decoder rings for us to use. Just FYI.

/humor

Seriously, I think we need to jettison this mindset of church must be (3 services a week, AWANA / Kids For Truth / Royal Rangers, ________) and start moving - quickly - back to a highly decentralized model of one training another who trains a third and not have the pastor be ‘the man’. I don’t see that in the NT, and that model can’t possibly hold up should we ever experience any kind of serious, organized and sustained persecution from either culture or government. It didn’t work in the apostles’ day, and I doubt highly that it works in places like China, North Korea, or Iran.

I’m glad I made the grade…..I think. Like Tyler, I consider myself an historic fundamentalist but many of my brethren consider me a convergent and now you’ve confirmed it until the day they finally define the term anyway.

BTW, did I ever tell you about the church that refused to have be back to preach after I quoted (not sang) a stanza from In Christ Alone?