Changes at BBS Reflect Growing Ministry Trends

Off-topic, but I have taken modular classes at BBS. I have NEVER gotten a single project in on time, I never needed more than 2-3 more weeks, but I have always needed more time. I also took some classes at Calvary. Since they only had modular classes two times a year, they provided more time, while at the same time trying to avoid having students still working on projects from their last modular when they need to be getting ready for the next one. Since BBS has modular classes three times a year, they seem to provide less time. I wanted to take a particular class last fall, but the professor only allowed six weeks to finish everything, and the syllabus stated that there would be one letter grade deducted for every day the final project was late. No one registered for the class, so it was not held. I know there is some tension between getting students to get things done and accommodating them when they need it, but as far as programs that will be taken by those already in ministry (i.e., the D.Min.) seminaries have to allow busy pastors the time to get things done.

BBC is taking bold steps to meet the changing educational marketplace

Visionary leadership understands that as the environment changes, an organization must also change

[Jim] BBC is taking bold steps to meet the changing educational marketplace

Visionary leadership understands that as the environment changes, an organization must also change

I’m not certain these steps are either bold or visionary. How do they enhance the quality of education received by either on-line or residential seminary students? When you sell the seminary building and transition half of your seminary faculty to adjuncts, this is a retrenchment.

That being said, if the current seminary enrollment can no longer meet the financial obligations of the seminary, I agree you must take action. But, let’s not couch that action as “bold and visionary” unless it’s positioning the seminary to enhance the quality of education it provides in new and better ways.

Nothing in the announcement tells me that the education will be better or that better options will be available.

The old “online vs. in person” debate will continue until us old stodgy people have died off. But I continue to think the in-person experience is vital for decent education particularly at the lower levels. The devaluing of relationships with others on the same journey and with those who have been on that journey already is epidemic. When your regular peer group is made up only of people who are not on your journey, your education will be substandard. When you can’t kick ideas around in the library with others who are thinking and writing on the same subject, your ideas will be substandard. When you can’t sit down in a professor’s office and “chew the fat” for a bit, you are not getting all you need. Yes, it saved you the money of moving and the difficult of finding a job, but that’s a high cost. And in the end, you will pay the price anyway.

Of course, if we get education in its proper place, at the beginning of your adult life rather than midway through it, you are not really leaving anything except a one-bedroom apartment and a run-of-the-mill job. Pack up your wife and your belongings in your fifteen-year old jalopy and make the trek for a few years. It won’t kill you; it will help you. Perhaps a large part of the problem is the pervasive mindset that wants now what previous generations had to wait for and earn. We want all the benefits of education (or at least the benefits of a degree conferred) without actually having to do what it takes to get the education. I have had both in-person and online/distance interaction. Without fail, the distance interaction was significantly poorer and less developed. If you doubt that, consider transcribing the last significant conversation you had with a professor and putting that into an email. Think of how much is lost when you do that. There is also the loss of focus and concentration due to the fact that you are simply adding something significant on top of everything else you are already doing.

JBL talks of taking out the social and networking aspects and the reason for residential education decreases. Well, duh? But why take those out? That is an important part of education. If you take all the books out and the papers, the need for residence also decreases. Having been in school for almost half my life, the relationships and face to face time is almost as important as the class content (and in some classes, it was better than the content). And there are many other benefits to in person/residential education that simply cannot be met offsite or distance. Consider something as simple as browsing the library. You see a book on the shelf and you can browse it for a page or two, maybe glean a quotation or an idea. You will never do that at home and the chance of you being near a good enough theological library to browse is slim to none.

Jonathan Charles talks about having time to get the work done. If you are going to be in a postgraduate education (or any other kind) then you make time to get it done. That was one of the questions on the entrance interviews: “How will you get the work done?” Students know at the beginning of the class when the work is due and it is typically 12-13 weeks away. If you can’t get it done in that amount of time, then it is likely that your priorities are messed up or your personal habits need work. Someone in this situation may need to reconsider whether or not they should be in enrolled. Getting things done is not that difficult in most cases. A personal emergency or ministry situation that prevents you from getting it done is likely so substantial an emergency that it requires you dropping out of the program, at least for a period of time. I remember Someone talking once about seeing if you can finish the wall before you start it. It’s a good idea. And if you are going to start plowing, then don’t turn back.

Signed,

Scrooge

[Jonathan Charles] Off-topic, but I have taken modular classes at BBS. I have NEVER gotten a single project in on time, I never needed more than 2-3 more weeks, but I have always needed more time.

One thing I quickly learned taking 6-9 credit hours / semester at BBS, working full-time, serving in my church, and leading my family of 6 is that time management is critical for success.

I learned that completing my required reading before the semester started helped tremendously. So, during the Christmas and summer breaks, I completed my required reading for the next semester. This freed up my time during the semester to write and to respond in the student discussion forums, to memorize my Greek or Hebrew vocab and paradigms, and to maintain a healthy lifestyle.

I learned that I needed to start writing my papers early in the semester instead of waiting the week before they were due, especially when I was taking two or more classes at a time that each required multiple papers to be written. That being said, when needed I was able to take off a couple days from work to complete my papers.

I learned that spending my extra time pursuing an M.Div. hurt my family relationships. My wife told me that during the six years it took me to earn my M.Div. she felt like a single mom. I was in the house, but I wasn’t available to help with our children. If my wife were emotionally needy or needed regular physical affection, I never would have made it through seminary. Weekend camp outs with my children ceased. I could be irritable with my children when they were noisily playing around the house and I needed to concentrate. Consequently, my relationship with my older son (now 16) also deteriorated. Since graduation, I’ve made it my focus to reconnect with my wife and children, and spend my extra time with them. I told my wife that I will not pursue another degree until after our four children have graduated from high school.

So, seminary cost me more than just time and money. You have to ask yourself if the cost is worth it.

T Howard, your experience bears out my point about getting things out of order in life.

Proverbs 24:27 says, “Prepare your work outside And make it ready for yourself in the field; Afterwards, then, build your house.”

Too many people build the house first before they are able to sustain it. It creates problems later on. Obviously, once it’s been done, it’s been done. But this is perhaps similar to the other discussion on growing up. Young people need to get their priorities straight and do things in the right order.

I enrolled in a PhD and a DMin program when my first son was 1 year old. I eventually dropped the PhD because I didn’t want to spend his formative years doing academic PhD work. I ended up finishing the DMin instead. By the time it was done, I had two more kids.

[Larry]

T Howard, your experience bears out my point about getting things out of order in life.

Proverbs 24:27 says, “Prepare your work outside And make it ready for yourself in the field; Afterwards, then, build your house.”

Too many people build the house first before they are able to sustain it. It creates problems later on. Obviously, once it’s been done, it’s been done. But this is perhaps similar to the other discussion on growing up. Young people need to get their priorities straight and do things in the right order.

Larry, the issue is God didn’t call me to pastoral ministry until my mid-to-late 30s. I would have gladly gone to seminary in “the right order” had I believed God was calling me to pastoral ministry when I was in my early-to-mid 20s.

T Howard, My point wasn’t directed at your personally but rather at the bigger picture. Your story is an example that others should carefully heed.

You are correct to point out that there is a cost and one must decide if they are willing to pay it. I wasn’t willing to pay the time and relationship cost of the PhD program I was in. I know some who don’t want to devote extra time to school because they just want to get out in ministry and start serving the Lord. I think that is a very short-sighted and narrow-minded approach. Hopefully there are less of those now than there used to be.

“Prepare your work and then build your house.”

Larry wrote:

JBL talks of taking out the social and networking aspects and the reason for residential education decreases. Well, duh? But why take those out? That is an important part of education.

The primary reason to eschew the residential experience is that it adds some $7K/year to the cost of attendance, or $28K over four years. If my child decided to do an online bible college program, I would probably charge him $100/month just to keep him accountable. Much cheaper.

The other reason I would tend to eschew paying the residential cost is because of the way the marketplace for graduates of fundamentalist colleges works. My experience has been that churches in the market to hire these graduates don’t really care about the skill set that the college imparts. They do, however, care about the doctrinal and standards stance that the college reinforces in the graduate. This is the primary purpose of fundamentalist education. The institution you decide to attend determines the set of churches that will hire you. Do you need the in person experience to attain this benefit? Not so much.

In other words, the primary benefit of attending one of these institutions is to certify you to hold a staff position at the set of churches that approve of the school’s doctrinal and cultural standards. If that is what the young person wants, I won’t begrudge him. My recommendation however, is that he should obtain this certification at the lowest cost possible.

The good discussion here illustrates a rather great divide. Those who disagree with me will believe I’m being unfair, but here it is:

• The locus for discussion, interaction and exchange of ideas should be the local church, not the Seminary. This means I don’t care about discussions after class at a brick and mortar campus. I do care about discussions with other Christians, including Pastors and deacons, after Sunday School.

To be sure, there are several dozen caveats I could toss in, but won’t bother to do so right now. I think this is a fundamental divide, and it reflects an adherence to a traditional form of education which is not necessarily better or more biblical. I profited greatly from virtual and online education, coupled with practical ministry lived out among the folks in my local church, both while I was a church member and a Pastor. I think online and virtual education is a God-send, because young men can stay in their local church, with the folks who know them, under the Pastor who can mentor him, while still getting quality theological education. What a concept. :)

In general, the “interaction” arguments for brick and mortar Seminary sound a lot like the public school folks who cry out that homeschooled children “don’t get social interaction.” Not a good argument. If that’s all you’ve got, then you ain’t got much!

It seems to me that many in fundamentalism do not want the local church to be the locus of discussion, interaction and exchange of ideas.

The local church is the safe-haven from the world, and competing Christian doctrines are considered “worldly.”

I believe this is why certain churches funnel their young adults into certain schools, and why they only hire from certain schools.

I also believe that this is the reason FBFI issues resolutions every year. The social and doctrinal positions that the resolutions take are positioned as being unilaterally biblical, and differing views are no longer discussed.

I believe that the recent ejection of John MacArthur out of IFCA was done on similar lines.

Per what Tyler is saying, we can start by noting that apart from Paul’s studying under Gamaliel (Acts 5:34, Acts 22:3), there really isn’t a clear reference to anything resembling a seminary—and of course that was a Pharisaical seminary, not a Christian one, that Paul attended. Even in that “shul”, as it were, we might infer that Paul had a lot of close interpersonal interaction with someone who was first an older rabbi.

So at the very least, we need to conclude that seminary is adiaphora, not specifically commanded or rejected in Scripture.

And that said, it is worth noting that what we see described in Scripture is Paul telling Timothy to pass things on, Christ telling His disciples to pass things on, and the like. Contrast that with the link Jim provided yesterday (?) about most young fundamentalists NOT reporting having been actively discipled.

Houston, we have a problem, don’t we?

And then we must confront the idea that Scripture speaks of “elders”, men who are seasoned in judgment. Now that can—e.g. Timothy—be a younger man, but at the same time, I think the word suggests it will generally be someone older—someone who has learned wisdom over the years and has what it takes to go “toe to toe” with people in the church who have their own ends in mind and not God’s.

In other words, it might be better a second or third career where the qualifications would be increasing Godliness over a period of decades, combined with the understanding of human “politics” needed to effectively deal with factions in the church. We can all think of churches where they desperately needed someone willing and able to confront that faction, no? And we might even wonder whether putting young men in the pastorate too quickly sets them up for a career of accepting the status quo as well.

Which is a long way of saying that I think that, if I understand it correctly, this is the right move. Today’s pastors all too often cannot teach the things they learned in seminary in the same way that first generation homeschoolers had to learn how to teach. Online seminary may be a great way of transitioning churches back into serious disciple-making,as opposed to Hyles-esque number counters.

[TylerR]

The good discussion here illustrates a rather great divide. Those who disagree with me will believe I’m being unfair, but here it is:

• The locus for discussion, interaction and exchange of ideas should be the local church, not the Seminary. This means I don’t care about discussions after class at a brick and mortar campus. I do care about discussions with other Christians, including Pastors and deacons, after Sunday School.

To be sure, there are several dozen caveats I could toss in, but won’t bother to do so right now. I think this is a fundamental divide, and it reflects an adherence to a traditional form of education which is not necessarily better or more biblical. I profited greatly from virtual and online education, coupled with practical ministry lived out among the folks in my local church, both while I was a church member and a Pastor. I think online and virtual education is a God-send, because young men can stay in their local church, with the folks who know them, under the Pastor who can mentor him, while still getting quality theological education. What a concept.

In general, the “interaction” arguments for brick and mortar Seminary sound a lot like the public school folks who cry out that homeschooled children “don’t get social interaction.” Not a good argument. If that’s all you’ve got, then you ain’t got much!

Sure. I just don’t think the in-person interaction is worth the financial and logistical cost of moving. As the years go by, many, many, many, many, many other people will come to the same conclusions. BBS is making a wise move. Go Maranatha.

Larry’s remarks, above, are probably the best and most representative arguments that advocates for “traditional;” Seminary can muster. Let me summarize his arguments, and briefly respond:

• Relationships with other students. Don’t know what to say. I’ve never had sustained contact with any other Seminary student. Don’t really care, and don’t feel the lack. I do have a secular degree from a brick and mortar college, and never really talked with other students then, either. Maybe I’m just an incurable loser? This could be a big one for some people. For me, I just don’t care.
• Relationships with professors. Maybe. I’ve had some very good discussions with professors by email. I’d be nice to chat at length about some topics. But, honestly, I can read any journal article I want, courtesy of the awesome Maranatha library (more on that in a minute). I have books, and I interact by reading them and analyzing arguments. I know, the purists will cry foul. Maybe I’m just really strange, but I do just fine reading arguments in articles and books, and emailing a professor if I really want input on deep things.
• Library. I’ve never been fascinated by theological libraries. They’ve never drawn me, like a moth to flame. If I’m researching something, I compile a list of books I want, skim them at Amazon, and request them via ILL. More likely than not, I can find the same thing in condensed form in a journal article. Maranatha’s library has excellent virtual capabilities, and I can pretty much find anything I need.

Alll told, these aren’t persuasive arguments. I didn’t come to Seminary as a 22-yr old, bright-eyed and bushy-tailed youngin.’ I was older, had been married a while, and had three children and a mortgage. We weren’t gonna move. Nothing to do with laziness or a sense of entitlement, just practical life. These arguments weren’t persuasive enough to entice me to move, and many other people are coming to the same conclusions. Good for them. For the rest of ya’ll, some of those brick and mortar-only Seminaries will still be there … for a little while. Meanwhile, you’ll be in greater debt and our degrees are still regionally accredited, just like yours … Tell me again, how enticing is that professor’s office?