Should a Pastor Look at Giving Records?

http://sharperiron.org/forum/poll-should-pastor-look-at-giving-records

Transparency on policy is appropriate:

• Obviously someone sees them and knows. Normally this would be, what Baptists call, the Financial Secretary. My sister-in-law is the Financial Secretary at their Baptist Church. In my church the F/C is a paid, part-time position.
• I suggest that church bylaws have a privacy section that addresses who has access to these records.
• If the pastor has access, and I’m OK with that, that should be specified.

I often heard from pulpits (in the context of messages about giving), ” … I don’t know how much you give …”.

If my pastor wants to know how much or how (my philosophy of …) I give, I would be fine with his asking me.

For any pastor to publicly declare ” … I don’t know how much you give …” and to have access to that data would be unethical.

For any pastor to publicly declare ” … I don’t know how much you give …” and to have access to that data would be unethical.

Why is that unethical?

When I was a pastor I never had access to giving records or to any financial information. And I didn’t want access. I think a major key is that churches have a financial policy in place and that the finances be handled accountably and in accordance with that financial policy. A pastor must preach what Scripture teaches about biblical giving.

Some people would like the Pastor to know how much they give in order to impress him. The only way you could impress the Pastor with your giving is if you also reveal how much you have to work with. Like the widow who gave her two mites to Jesus made an impression because He knew what she had. Ananias and Sapphira are an example of folks who lie about their giving before men but can not lie before God.

I’m in complete agreement with Fred Moritz on this. A pastor does right to preach what the Scriptures teach. There are ways to deal with this touchy topic and even deal with those not giving without the pastor knowing the exact details. For those of you who want some ideas on how to deal with this and at the same time honor this approach of the pastor not knowing who gives what…..zip me a private note and I’ll share some ideas on how to deal with this. Straight Ahead! jt

Pastor’s who don’t think you should have access to financial information….

1. Is there something in your character that makes you think that you’ll treat people better or worse based on how they give? (If you can’t be trusted with financial information, how can you be trusted with secrets shared in counseling, how to deal with other ethical conflicts, etc…?)

2. Would you want someone who does not give to serve as an elder, deacon, Bible study leader or staff member?

3. Are there other areas of the Christian walk about which you WOULD be interested in knowing? Church attendance, number of times they’ve been married/divorced, drinking, paying their bills, etc…? Why is the one involving obeying the directive to tithe/give “off limits”?

4. By separating knowledge of giving as some sort of state secret, are we sending a message that pastors can’t be trusted or that money is such a special and powerful tool that we should treat it differently than any other area of the Christian walk?

5. Could one be placing money on a pedestal (like an idol) by making ignorance of whether or not people are giving to the work of the Lord a requirement?

6. Do you trust others with that information (deacons, offering counters, bookkeepers, etc…) but you can’t be trusted?

7. If someone or group of people are not giving anything to the Lord’s work through the local church, should they not receive discipleship and instruction on why they should?

Just some questions to stir some conversation….
(Reposted from the survey where I accidentally posted this the first time.)

OK you know the Jones family gives $ 5,000 per year to the church you are pastoring. Now what do you do?

Suppose the amount is $ 2,000 …. $ 10,000?

Nothing. I just tuck the information away in the back of my head. When someone nominates Mr. Jones to serve as a Small Group Leader next fall and the question about “Is he financially supporting the church?” (In addition to all the other questions regarding criteria) comes up, the answer is “yes” and we move on.

[Jim]

OK you know the Jones family gives $ 5,000 per year to the church you are pastoring. Now what do you do?

Suppose the amount is $ 2,000 …. $ 10,000?

I think the more important question is what do you do with a chronic complainer who mentions he/she has given lots of money to the church and doesn’t like how you do x. You know they give a very small amount if anything to the church.

[DLCreed]

Nothing. I just tuck the information away in the back of my head. When someone nominates Mr. Jones to serve as a Small Group Leader next fall and the question about “Is he financially supporting the church?” (In addition to all the other questions regarding criteria) comes up, the answer is “yes” and we move on.

Well if amount X is sinful and you know about it … don’t you have a Biblical responsibility to address it? And how might that unfold?

I’m not sure what you are asking. I can be pretty dense sometimes though. My point is that if someone is not giving and aspires to leadership, a discipleship opportunity has arisen. Perhaps they need some one-on-one discipleship, perhaps they should take a class like FPU or Crown, maybe they need a loving conversation to see if they are in bondage to debt or have never been instructed on grace-filled giving. But do you want someone who never gives to be in a position of training others or holding others accountable? It seems rather unwise.
How would you address someone who is addicted to tobacco, known to have a temper, isn’t wise in his business relationships, etc… I’d address someone who isn’t giving in a similar fashion.

• You know Mr Jones is an engineer at IBM
• You know something about his lifestyle because you know where he lives (and anymore with zillow it’s EZ to know the value of another’s home). You reasonably surmise that he and Mrs Jones are living in a $ 400,000 home.
• He and Mrs Jones have several late model cars.
• Their son and daughter go to Duke (average tuition = $ 60,000 per year)
• The family manage a trip to the Caribbean every year
• You’ve been in their home and you observe they have the best furniture, and the latest in home entertainment systems
• Their kitchen has recently been remodeled
• You come to find out that he only gives $ 100 per week. You can probably guess he is making six figures at IBM
• So what do you do with this knowledge that he is only giving $5k a year?

Would it go like this? (You’ve set up a coffee appointment with Mr Bill Jones):

• You: I’ve been reviewing our church’s individual giving records and …
• Bill: WOW REALLY (thinking)
• You: and see that last year you gave $ 5,000
• You: and you’ve got to be making at least $ 100,000 per year ..

Now what?

This question will be answered when a pastor has determined what he believes the Bible teaches about giving. For example:

IF, I believe that the Bible teaches store house tithing, I would be inclined to want to know what each member is giving.

IF, I believe that the Bible teaches grace giving, I would not be inclined to know what each member is giving.

I hold to grace giving. I teach that each member of VBC should give as the Lord directs them to give. I do not know how much any one gives. I ask the church treasurer if someone nominated to be a deacon gives; but I do not know what they give.

I believe that God takes care of His ministry. If I have to beg, brow beat, guilt trip people into giving, I would have a very low view of God. If you know the ministry that I pastor, you know the testimony of a generous church family.

Personal story: I have a family member who worked for a major airline. He and his wife used to be active in a Baptist church. They gave regularly to their church; but did not tithe. The pastor and deacon came to their home and admonished them that they were not giving in proportion to their income. (everyone knows what that airline paid). What pastor and deacon did not know was that family member, married to a wonderful Filipino woman, were paying for her nieces and nephews college education. Family members were graduating as educators, nurses, and doctors in the Philippines because of my family member’s generosity and love. Family member and wife no longer go to any church.

Yes, family member is sinning by not worshipping with a local assembly; but I do understand.