Police Remove 10 Christian Homeschool Kids From Parents' Custody Due to Off-The-Grid, Self-Sufficient Lifestyle
“Because the Nauglers wouldn’t let the police officers or a representative from CHFS speak with their children without a warrant, the parents were deemed to be not cooperative, according to the report. The report added that the parents’ lack of cooperation helped lead to the assumption that the homestead’s living conditions are not safe for the children.” CPost
…..the school district is angling to make a large payment to the Nauglers for violation of 4th Amendment rights, if this article is indicative. It would be ironic if they ended up buying them a nice new home because they couldn’t be bothered with the niceties of the law. Specifics of note:
1. An anonymous allegation is generally speaking not enough for a warrant.
2. It’s not clear that the warrant was presented to the family per the 4th Amendment.
3. Police stop without probable cause.
Lawyers out there, wipe your chin, you’re salivating at this case.
(if, of course, the case is as stated…..all too often, however, the HSLDA has won cases like this, so it’s not improbable that this article is pretty close to the actual facts)
Aspiring to be a stick in the mud.
This is not really a “homeschool” story. More to it:
- The unusual living conditions (pictures in the article)
- The “menacing” with the gun allegation
- Making this a “homeschooling” story would like like making the MOVE story a homeschool issue (it wasn’t and neither is this!)
A GoFundMe online fundraising page has been established to help support the family. In just over four days, the page has raised nearly $40,000.
Jim, homeschooling alone rarely is the context in which the HSLDA gets involved—usually a (well-meaning?) neighbor or relative who disagrees with the family’s choices makes an allegation that something is wrong with the home, discipline, etc.. So the things you mention don’t surprise me.
The key issue here is whether the police had a valid warrant, and that requires a non-anonymous affidavit to be filed. If the allegation is anonymous, then social services may start an investigation and ask permission to come on the property, and that is all.
(I personally agree that the house is substandard, but then….hey, most of our ancestors lived in such homes, no, when you go back a few generations, and you’ll find a lot of “off grid” people sending letters to “Backwoods Home” magazine for the same thing…..really the whole deal looks a bit like “Gilligan’s Island” or Boy Scout camp)
Aspiring to be a stick in the mud.
http://www.wave3.com/story/29036091/off-the-grid-couple-fights-for-cust…
(older son alleges abuse)
Website with their side: http://www.saveourfamily.info/
Local reporting: http://www.wbko.com/home/headlines/Off-grid-Couple-Faces-Hearing-to-Reg…
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3077706/Alex-Brow-Joe-Naugler-s…
(photos of the kids playing in mud)
Waiting for all the facts to perk down.
Kentucky doesn’t appear to be anti-homeschooling. Link My own view … doubtful that much schooling takes place in that environment but it’s their business.
On over-reach by the cops. In the Twin Cities there was a case in the news just this last month. Kids living in filth … and the state did not do enough to protect them. (This is not the one I was thinking of but it was about like this)
Same thing was going on in the recent Michigan case—an aunt of the alleged perpetrator was a former detective and didn’t figure anything out—as well as the infamous Bonita Jacks case in Washington DC. And for that matter, that appears to have been part of the problem with the case that Chuck Phelps was involved with—when police were pressed as to whether they had any indication of an investigation being done, they had to admit they had no records.
So no argument about whether there are some homeschoolers that I wouldn’t trust with my dog out there. There are, and I could name names if I wanted to. But the operative question here is whether anyone filed allegations with their name signed to them, and what did the early CPS reports actually say? A lot of people want to allege that “homeschooling” led to the issues and “allowed parents to hide” when in fact, authorities did know and did nothing.
And for those who are ready to make an allegation; be concise, be honest, and sign it with your legal name. Otherwise authorities can’t take much action even if they want to.
Aspiring to be a stick in the mud.
The uneasy relationship between the individual and the state:
- Zoning issues
- Building codes. In a previous home, I put a bunch of electrical outlets in my garage and ran the Romex on top of the drywall. Guess what .. at time to sell, a home inspector notified me that it was against code. Had to be remediated.
- Can I / should I get a building permit? (My parents lived in an unincorporated part of the Fort Worth metroplex. Dad had a back room added (nicely done). Never got a building permit. When Mom sold the house 2 years ago there was no record that the addition was added … caused an issue with valuation of the home for mortgage requirements for the buyer)
- In my city, you cannot discharge a gun … not even a BB gun. The BB gun thing seems extreme to me. (the law)
- You cannot have a well in Plymouth MN
- Minnesota has all kinds of laws regarding pit toilets and how close housing can be to a lake. (Example)
Long time ago for some of you young ’uns :)
Technically, Joe and Nicole Naugler are not homeschooling.
Kentucky does not require homeschooling parents to submit academic assessments of their children’s progress or keep portfolios of children’s educational materials, but the state does require homeschooling parents to file paperwork with the local school board, and the Nauglers have not done so. Technically, the Naugler children are not being homeschooled—they’re truant. Please don’t think I’m here to nitpick or to suggest that education cannot take place at home if the proper paperwork is not filed. I’m not. Because the Naugler’s self-identify as homeschoolers, I’m inclined to think of them as homescholers even though they’re not considered homeschoolers before the law. This blog post is absolutely not to say that we should reject the family’s identification as homeschoolers (though we absolutely should support them filing the paperwork to homeschool legally).
We adopted two children out of the foster care system, we are homeschooling this year, and I am pretty much a libertarian. I believe that the government’s duty is to prevent aggression, protect the sanctity of contract, protect against fraud, and ensure that the helpless among us (mainly children) are not abused.
That is why I think state governments are completely reasonable in requiring seatbelts on children, requiring parents to provide an education, and requiring minimum living standards. In this case, it sounds like protocol was not followed. But it also sounds like a case where I would want the government to step in and rescue those kids from a life of ignorance and exclusion from society. I know that the balance (between liberty and security) is hard to acheive, but I think it is pretty clear in this case.
Mr. Fericks: The problem is - who defines terms such as “a life of ignorance” and “exclusion from society”? Does that mean that families aren’t allowed to live so far out in the country where going into town three times a week is not feasible? Is it now illegal to be stupid? ‘Cause I know some folks who need to be arrested right now.
There are celebrities with TV shows far removed from reality and dumber than dog hair, not to mention dysfunctional, immoral, neglectful, excessive - anyone going to arrest them and remove their kids? No - America is amused by this kind of child abuse, and Hollywood makes money from it. So it’s perfectly legal for parents and children to be ignorant and obscene.
I have issues with people who have issues about families living off grid - my dad bought an old farmhouse when I was 8 yo, and we gutted it and rebuilt it while living in it. The Mother Earth News Almanac came second only to The Bible. We didn’t have walls or finished floors for years, the windows were heavy duty plastic stapled to the window frames, we had a wood stove to heat the whole house, the opening to the cistern was in my parent’s bedroom, and we didn’t have any indoor plumbing until I was 14. I didn’t do without any necessity of life, I worked my butt off from sun up to sundown, and there was no abuse or neglect as far I’m concerned. I doubt today we’d be allowed to do that. Apparently carpet and cable television are now necessities, and it’s a crime to make a kid bale hay and get blisters on their dainty little hands from weeding the garden.
People need to get a grip.
There are many families who live off the grid by choice, whether they homeschool or not, and I certainly don’t think it should be within the power of gov’t to decide how much a family interacts with the general public. Again - would those same rules apply to children of gov’t officials and celebrities? Of course not. They are special little snowflakes.
The main problem with this IMO is that it sounds like the officers who went to the house first did not have probable cause, and the mom was justified according to the law in not allowing them to speak to her kids without a warrant. Would you hand your kids over to a couple of rogue cops? In TODAY’S world?
CPS have handbooks you can read online (Here’s Kentucky’s http://manuals.sp.chfs.ky.gov/chapter2/Pages/home.aspx), and there is nothing that would encourage or legitimize this reaction by CPS or law enforcement to an anonymous tip.
I also agree that this is not primarily a homeschooling issue, regardless of whether or not the family filed their paperwork. They have a website http://blessedlittlehomestead.org/ and a Facebook page https://www.facebook.com/MyBlessedLittleHomestead/timeline, for cryin’ out loud, where they documented their lifestyle for the whole planet. Talk about hiding in plain sight.
[Jim]Jim, To be clear, the older son isn’t really a part of this family as he was removed from his father’s custody 15 years ago. Though he says his father was abusive to him, there is no evidence or allegation of abuse in this current situation.http://www.wave3.com/story/29036091/off-the-grid-couple-fights-for-custo…
(older son alleges abuse)
Susan,
I definitely have no problem with homeschooling, having your children learn to work, or even living off grid. I am acknowledging the tension between liberty and security here. I also acknowledged the breech in protocol, which is serious. Even in prosecuting a murderer, rights of the accused must be honored.
I do believe that government has a duty to protect children from negligent parents. And in the case of Kentucky, there are some minimum standards to meet. These standards were put in place by a republican form of government, where the people had a say, and the laws are mostly good. One of those standards, as far as I can tell, is education. “Unschooling” is not education. Living in a stick fence with a tarp over it is not living in a home. Stealing water from neighbors is not liberty. Telling little Jimmy to “go get my gun” is definitely threatening.
We don’t have all the facts here, but it is pretty clear that the parents are not heroes, the children are not being equipped for life, and that they may even be living in danger. Kentucky should not abuse their rights, but they should use legal means to investigate, and if warranted by law, place the children in a loving home.
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