Does the M.Div. Have a Future?

For all of you talking about the benefits of language training (of which I agree), here is a copy of a certain MDiv program.

Year One
BI 571 2 Hermeneutics**
ME 501 2 Personal Evangelism
NT 511 2 New Testament Introduction**
NT 521/522 6 Greek Grammar
OT 511 2 Old Testament Introduction**
PT 501 2 Foundations of Biblical Counseling
PT 703 2 Pastoral Theology
ST 511 2 Research and Writing**
ST 551/552 4 Systematic Theology I & II

Year Two
HT 501/502 4 Church History I & II
ME 601 2 Foundations of Missions
NT 531/532 4 Greek Syntax & Reading
OT 501/502 6 Hebrew Grammar
PT 704 2 Church Administration
ST 651/652 4 Systematic Theology III & IV
____ 4 Electives

Year Three
NT 571 2 New Testament Biblical Theology I
NT 601/602 4 Greek Exegesis
OT 601/602 6 Hebrew Syntax, Reading, & Exegesis
OT 672 2 Old Testament Biblical Theology I
PT 602 2 Homiletics
PT 701 2 Expository Preaching I
PT 726 0 Pastoral Internship Program
ST 751/752 4 Systematic Theology V & VI
____ 2 Electives

Year Four
HT 601 2 Baptist History
HT 602 2 Fundamentalism and Evangelicalism
PT 702 2 Expository Preaching II
PT 727 2 Pastoral Internship Program
PT 750 0 Senior Seminar
ST 701 2 Dispensations
____ 12 Electives
____ 0 Senior Doctrinal Defense

Total 96 Hours

It is possible my math is off, but out of 96 hours, I only counted 26. It is late and my eyes are tired. So…

[James K]

For all of you talking about the benefits of language training (of which I agree), here is a copy of a certain MDiv program.

Year One
BI 571 2 Hermeneutics**
ME 501 2 Personal Evangelism
NT 511 2 New Testament Introduction**
NT 521/522 6 Greek Grammar
OT 511 2 Old Testament Introduction**
PT 501 2 Foundations of Biblical Counseling
PT 703 2 Pastoral Theology
ST 511 2 Research and Writing**
ST 551/552 4 Systematic Theology I & II

Year Two
HT 501/502 4 Church History I & II
ME 601 2 Foundations of Missions
NT 531/532 4 Greek Syntax & Reading
OT 501/502 6 Hebrew Grammar
PT 704 2 Church Administration
ST 651/652 4 Systematic Theology III & IV
____ 4 Electives

Year Three
NT 571 2 New Testament Biblical Theology I
NT 601/602 4 Greek Exegesis
OT 601/602 6 Hebrew Syntax, Reading, & Exegesis
OT 672 2 Old Testament Biblical Theology I
PT 602 2 Homiletics
PT 701 2 Expository Preaching I
PT 726 0 Pastoral Internship Program
ST 751/752 4 Systematic Theology V & VI
____ 2 Electives

Year Four
HT 601 2 Baptist History
HT 602 2 Fundamentalism and Evangelicalism
PT 702 2 Expository Preaching II
PT 727 2 Pastoral Internship Program
PT 750 0 Senior Seminar
ST 701 2 Dispensations
____ 12 Electives
____ 0 Senior Doctrinal Defense

Total 96 Hours

It is possible my math is off, but out of 96 hours, I only counted 26. It is late and my eyes are tired. So…

I don’t have an M Div (wish I did), so I can’t speak to the whole program. But I have taken a number of M Div classes to augment my BA from Bible college which required everyone to maintain a Bible major along with whatever else they were studying. I can certainly say the homiletics and hermeneutics classes I took again went much further than the undergraduate classes had gone. They were far more than simply repeats of the previous classes. On the other hand, I think I got a lot more out of the graduate classes because I already had the foundation laid in the undergraduate classes. I would not have wanted to lose the value of either set of courses.

James, I’m not really sure what your complaint is. An M.Div. is supposed to prepare a man for pastoral ministry, so it would necessarily include studies in Bible, theology, and pastoral ministry (homiletics, counseling, leadership and administration, etc.). 1/4 of the credit hours in languages seems about right to me.

In past discussion on this site and even in this thread, the importance of languages is constantly referred to as the justification for the MDiv. Aside from the obvious issue of churches failing to train their own men and outsources their God ordained responsibilities, we are told that pastors can’t train in the languages. I can accept that part.

Given the amount of training the men are given, you would think the grads could somewhat train their young men when they are in turn pastors of churches. However, they also ship off their younger men to get less than 30% of their degree in languages.

So as it turns out, the MDiv is barely about languages.

The MDiv I posted was from Central. Detroit offered 34 hours I believe.

[Greg Long]

James, I’m not really sure what your complaint is. An M.Div. is supposed to prepare a man for pastoral ministry, so it would necessarily include studies in Bible, theology, and pastoral ministry (homiletics, counseling, leadership and administration, etc.). 1/4 of the credit hours in languages seems about right to me.

Greg, to your specific issue, a church is supposed to prepare a man for pastoral ministry, so it would necessarily include studies in Bible, theology, and pastoral ministry (homiletics, counseling, leadership and administration, etc.).

So that would be my complaint.

Before anyone comes back that certain profs are incredibly brilliant to sit under, consider also which institution the Lord of the church actually set up to accomplish this training.

I’m trying to get a feel for what your objection is.

Are you in favor of purely virtual or distance learning seminary models? A man could learn practical implementation in his local church while still attending school remotely.

Do you object to the construct of an MDiv itself (e.g. allegedly unnecessary classes, etc.), or the model of “shipping” young men off for their education?

Tyler, should churches be the ones training up their young men or not? If you answer that with a yes, then the only thing in an MDiv course that pastor’s couldn’t teach are the languages. As I pointed out though, the actual language studies are 1/4-1/3 of the degree.

We have many students with a desire to serve in full time Christian work who either take loans out to fund ministry training (always a good idea), or they have their wife work (other problems there), or they work and go to school as they can (dragging out the education), etc, all to get the coveted MDiv to prove they can work in the pastorate. The MDiv also gives you the right to speak according to Kevin Bauder, so there is that also.

I see you are a new pastor yourself. What are you going to do with the next generation of young men in your church? Will you ship them off to learn the Bible and ministry from someone else or will you have a plan in place to start training them now?

[James K]

Tyler, should churches be the ones training up their young men or not? If you answer that with a yes, then the only thing in an MDiv course that pastor’s couldn’t teach are the languages. As I pointed out though, the actual language studies are 1/4-1/3 of the degree.

We have many students with a desire to serve in full time Christian work who either take loans out to fund ministry training (always a good idea), or they have their wife work (other problems there), or they work and go to school as they can (dragging out the education), etc, all to get the coveted MDiv to prove they can work in the pastorate. The MDiv also gives you the right to speak according to Kevin Bauder, so there is that also.

I see you are a new pastor yourself. What are you going to do with the next generation of young men in your church? Will you ship them off to learn the Bible and ministry from someone else or will you have a plan in place to start training them now?

Speaking for myself, I believe training young men in the church is valuable and essential. At the same time, I could not possibly train the young men in my church as thoroughly as deeply studied men in the languages, systematic theology, and church history. I could get them started, and sharpen them a bit, but not at the level of top notch seminary professors. A pastor would have to be quite a fellow who could match that level of expertise in so many areas! And, of course, a pastor doing all of that is inherently narrowing them. All opinions will ultimately be his…not much exposure and wrestling with other ideas. I’m glad my young men have a quality seminary near enough to grow beyond me and prepare them for future ministry.

Everything here has seemed to focus on the merits of the MDiv (or not). Not really much consideration of if there would be room for other focuses.

Most seminaries in the circles in which we operate at least offer some kind of MA. This at least shows to me that there is recognition that there is value in the training one receives even without languages. There has also been adaptation in most seminaries I know of to accommodate students’ schedules with modules and similar kinds of adjustments.

Is there room in our seminaries for a wider offering, and more specialized training? What would it take to conclude that there are needs for further accommodation, whether types of degrees, methods of delivery, and so on? At what point does what is offered become sufficiently watered down where the education is deemed to have lost its value?

Solved with a 5 year degree

5 years instead of 8

I gotta be honest, Jim. That 5-year degree seems a bit weak to me. I mean, the only Biblical language requirement is one year of introductory Greek? Not saying that someone can’t pastor with that degree (I don’t have an MDiv, after all) but I am not sure this degree really compares that well with a traditional MDiv program.

I’m not sure that the military would recognize that as a valid MDiv equivalency for chaplaincy, either. There is a required credit amount for the chaplaincy (last I checked it was 72 graduate level credits).

Came across this discussion on the importance of the Biblical languages. Thought I’d pass it along. It particularly resonates with me, because I’m taking over a small church, still working on my MDiv and haven’t taken language classes yet.

http://youtu.be/-5jTtbXKvxA

1. On the B. Div. - it was originally a postgraduate degree. You had to have a university degree to get in. The confusion comes because terminology has switched around. For example, in the medieval university, a Bachelor’s was the first degree in a particular field. That is, even if you already had a Bachelor and Masters of Arts, if you started studying theology, you would start with a Bachelor’s of Theology.

2. On local churches training pastors - I understand the argument for this, but I am not aware of any period of time in Christian history where pastors were trained in local church settings. Almost all influential Christian denominations gained there influence through numerical or qualitative superiority of education. For example, medieval Dominicans and Franciscans dominated their religious culture by having rigorous cloister schools and later the University of Paris. The Reformation was dominated almost entirely by university-trained theologians, who then established schools for training clergy. Much of the modern missions movement is traceable to universities. Like it or not, the history of Christianity is the history of schools. Now, there was a mentor-apprentice model in some Eastern hermetic communities, but that’s pretty fringe. Also, some groups, such as some 18th century American Baptists and Methodists, eschewed formal education, but as far as I know they didn’t have any serious personal mentor model in place either. I get the impression they were just winging it.

3. On languages - even our best seminaries are not producing linguists equivalent to those of previous generations. This is mostly because of the elimination of Greek and Latin in middle and high schools. Here is a short essay I wrote on the subject: http://sacredpage.wordpress.com/2011/02/23/the-role-of-greek-in-theological-education/

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Mod edit … made above link “hot”

Charlie, I will take a stab at your historical argument.

I am sure you are aware of a time when the church was still led by the apostles. Paul took Luke, Barnabas, Timothy, Titus, etc, along with him to learn how to not only teach correct doctrine, but how to apply it to the people. Paul’s counsel to Timothy was to:

2 Timothy 2:1-2

1 You, therefore, my child, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus. 2 And what you have heard from me in the presence of many witnesses, commit to faithful men who will be able to teach others also.

Was Timothy to oversee the affairs of the church or some other institution?

This of course gets into the issue of churches with the single pastor only model. There just isn’t enough time is the argument. So first there is the rejection of the NT model, and then an excuse heaped on top of that to ignore and shuck the NT commands, and voila, a reliance on the schools to train men who in turn are UNABLE to train their own men.