PCUSA uncomfortable with phrase "Till on that cross as Jesus died / the wrath of God was satisfied."

Don, I think that is exactly what it means that Christ is the substitute for us. Col 3 says that we are hidden in Christ. He took it all upon himself so that we do not bear it at all. That is how I would explain it.

Don, can you show me the verse that says “we enter into the holy life of Christ”. I am not finding it.

Don, Jesus is not the object of God’s wrath presently. Jesus suffered punishment/wrath on our behalf. Once, for a limited time. It is finished.

Romans 6, in addition to what James K posted above, tells us about how we did indeed die “with Him” and so now can live with Him. The “problem” of us being “in Christ” isn’t a real problem at all.

[DavidO]

Don, Jesus is not the object of God’s wrath presently. Jesus suffered punishment/wrath on our behalf. Once, for a limited time. It is finished.

Romans 6, in addition to what James K posted above, tells us about how we did indeed die “with Him” and so now can live with Him. The “problem” of us being “in Christ” isn’t a real problem at all.

The silence in Scripture is deafening with regard to this claim - that Jesus suffered God’s wrath!

I will never understand how man-made theories can grab such a hold on us especially when we claim “Scripture only.”

[christian cerna]

Don, can you show me the verse that says “we enter into the holy life of Christ”. I am not finding it.

Romans 5:10 states, “How much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved “in” his life! The Greek word for “in” is “en.”

We are saved from wrath in his life.

But not only are we in his life, he is in us (Romans 8:10). The fusion that exists when we enter into Christ and his life is amazing. We are in Christ and he is in us. Jesus said the same thing in John 15:4-5. This is why the sharing in his sufferings is no little thing. And it is also why Christ could not have suffered God’s wrath. Because if he did, so would we. But Christ is our safe haven. He is our wrath-free zone because he was sinless, perfect and righteous. He always pleased his Father and he was never the recipient of God’s wrath. Therefore, when we enter into his life we are saved from wrath.

[James K]

Don, I think that is exactly what it means that Christ is the substitute for us. Col 3 says that we are hidden in Christ. He took it all upon himself so that we do not bear it at all. That is how I would explain it.

But that’s not right. Colossians 3:3 actually states that our life is hidden with Christ in God. That is not substitution; that’s participation. There is a participatory aspect of the atonement evidenced by our being baptized into his death, burial and resurrection that we fail to appreciate.

Only Jesus could be an atoning sacrifice for sins. His sacrifice covers our sin. The barrier to reconciliation with God has been removed. God in Christ has reconciled the world to himself. Now be reconciled. Enter into Christ. Be baptized with the baptism that he was baptized with. Die with him, be buried, and rise again to new life in Christ. And your life will be hidden with Christ in God. It is God who reconciles. He is involved in in this great mystery of enfolding us into himself. By Christ’s death we are reconciled to God. By his life we are saved from wrath.

Re: God’s wrath and Jesus. Let’s understand that we are not saying the Father was angry with Jesus per se, but that, as Jesus bore our guilt, He suffered the punishment God’s holy justice and righteous anger toward sin demanded of sinners. This does not omit the elements of demonstrating love toward us and being well-pleased with His Son.

Don, my contention about Col 3:3 is that we are hidden in Christ from something. What would we need to be hidden from? How are we safe in Christ? Safe from what? I would answer God’s wrath.

Rom 10 says that whoever calls on the name of the Lord will be saved. That is a quote from Joel about the coming Day of the Lord, which is God’s eschatological wrath. When Jesus stood in my way, he took it upon himself. I do believe that is Paul’s point in Rom 3 when God is declared to be just (in punishment of sin) and the justified (still holy to declare others just).

[James K]

Don, my contention about Col 3:3 is that we are hidden in Christ from something. What would we need to be hidden from? How are we safe in Christ? Safe from what? I would answer God’s wrath.

Rom 10 says that whoever calls on the name of the Lord will be saved. That is a quote from Joel about the coming Day of the Lord, which is God’s eschatological wrath. When Jesus stood in my way, he took it upon himself. I do believe that is Paul’s point in Rom 3 when God is declared to be just (in punishment of sin) and the justified (still holy to declare others just).

But the Bible doesn’t say this. It doesn’t say anywhere that Jesus stood in my way and took God’s wrath upon himself. We are hidden with Christ in God. It is the life of Christ that saves us from wrath - his perfect, sinless, holy, God-honoring, God-pleasing life (Romans 5:9-10). That’s why we are no longer under wrath when we enter into his life. When we are united with Christ we enter into a wrath-free zone precisely because Jesus is not under the wrath of God. And then with Christ we are hidden in God.

[DavidO]

Re: God’s wrath and Jesus. Let’s understand that we are not saying the Father was angry with Jesus per se, but that, as Jesus bore our guilt, He suffered the punishment God’s holy justice and righteous anger toward sin demanded of sinners. This does not omit the elements of demonstrating love toward us and being well-pleased with His Son.

I understand what you are stating David. But you are still using language (punishment) that the Bible does not use to describe Christ’s atoning sacrifice. The language of the Bible is that Christ died for us to take our sins away reconciling the world to himself.

If the Gospel is the most important message we can hear and receive, don’t you think we would all do well to explain it in scriptural terms? Are the scriptural terms somehow deficient that we need to import words like “punishment” to describe it?

Don, why do you think the Bible has to state that God was both just and the justifier? What consequence of the Law did Jesus address that would call into doubt that God was just if it wasn’t to take punishment?

[James K]

Don, why do you think the Bible has to state that God was both just and the justifier? What consequence of the Law did Jesus address that would call into doubt that God was just if it wasn’t to take punishment?

It isn’t right or just for God to forgive sin on the basis of animal sacrifices that cannot take away sin (Hebrews 10:4).

So God presents Jesus Christ as a sacrifice of atonement. His sacrifice takes away sins (Hebrews 10:11-12).

Now God is just or right to forgive sin and declare us righteous (justifies) because he declares us righteous on the basis of his Son’s sacrifice and not animal sacrifices.

The atoning sacrifice is why God is just. And the atoning sacrifice is how he justifies.

Although that is true Don, the context of Rom 3:20-24 doesn’t say anything about animal sacrifices. It does sum up that God is wrathful against all unrighteousness.

It would be unrighteous of God if he just let sin go unpunished.

The context of the passage states that God’s righteousness was revealed in such a way that God would still be just and the one who justifies.

At the cross, God had to punish sin. That is the summary conclusion of Paul’s argument from Rom 1-3.

[James K]

Although that is true Don, the context of Rom 3:20-24 doesn’t say anything about animal sacrifices. It does sum up that God is wrathful against all unrighteousness.

It would be unrighteous of God if he just let sin go unpunished.

The context of the passage states that God’s righteousness was revealed in such a way that God would still be just and the one who justifies.

At the cross, God had to punish sin. That is the summary conclusion of Paul’s argument from Rom 1-3.

Romans 3:25 states that God in his forbearance passed over the sins previously committed. Why did God do this?

Paul explains why God presented Jesus as a sacrifice of atonement. He presented him as a sacrifice of atonement because in his forbearance God passed over sins previously committed. How were sins dealt with prior to Christ’s sacrifice? by animal sacrifices.

I agree that it would be unrighteous of God if he forgave sin on the basis of animal sacrifices - sacrifices that cannot expiate sin.

That’s why the atoning sacrifice of Christ demonstrates God’s integrity or righteousness. He refused to forgive sin on the basis of an inadequate sacrifice. He justly forgives sin on the basis of Christ’s sacrifice. So God’s integrity (righteousness) reveals God’s great love for us in this, while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

Amazing love.

The summary conclusion of Paul’s argument in Romans 1-3 is that “now a righteousness from God, apart from the law, has been made known. The “righteousness” from God apart from the law is Christ himself - the Holy One of God (John 1:17-18). The conclusion of the section is that those who believe in Christ through faith are justified and receive the righteousness from God that is apart from the law.

Again, I do disagree with your conclusions but glad you are able to actually consider the text. I wish you well.