PCUSA uncomfortable with phrase "Till on that cross as Jesus died / the wrath of God was satisfied."

To those of you who claim that Jesus is the recipient of God’s wrath, that he was punished for our sins, and that he paid the penalty for sin, isn’t it up to you to prove this contention from the Bible?

Since the Bible does not use the words “paid,”, “penalty,” “punishment,” or “wrath” in relation to Jesus’ death, suffering, offering, or sacrifice, on what basis do you claim that Jesus was punished by God for our sins, experiencing God’s wrath for us?

This question is not like the trinity or the rapture. Both of these topics have numerous scriptural references that directly present the concept.

Build your case by using the terms found in the Bible, not the ones you import into Scripture.

I am doing this for my own benefit. I have little doubt Don won’t see the significance of it.

In Galatians Paul says Christ became a curse for us (Gal 3:13). What is “a curse”? Don offered earlier that it meant “Jesus is a “curse” for us, meaning he died for us so that we might be justified.” Is Don’s definition valid?

Look earlier in Gal 3:10, “For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.”” So a curse comes on a person who doesn’t fulfill the Law as outlined in the Pentateuch. What is that curse? It is the various results of not following the Law as the Pentateuch outlines in various places. It can be death, financial loss, famine, lots of things.

Here is the important part. Jesus became the CURSE for us. He bore the brunt of our not following the Law on Himself. He faced the WRATH of God that resulted from our not following the Law. He fulfilled the Law in Himself by not sinning, but He also bore the result of us not fulfilling the Law.

[Don Sailer]

[Jay]

[Don Sailer]

I do find the analogy of the OT sacrificial system of the sin offering. I also find an analogy of ransom.

Hi Don-

I’ve seen this thrown out a few times but haven’t seen an explanation of ‘ransom’. In your analogy of ransom - who is the one that demands the ransom? God?

I’m not sure that I agree with you on ‘ransom’, but it’s hard to tell with all the posts and crossposts. If you can enlighten me, I’d appreciate it.

I also have to admit that I’m surprised that there is a thread on SI that has more than 100+ replies that DOESN’T mention Northland or music. Well, aside from my mentions in this post.

:D

Ugh! You just ruined it! :)

Matthew 20:28 states that the life of Jesus is a ransom (lutron). 1 Timothy 2:6 also states that Jesus himself is the ransom (antilutron). In fact it states that Jesus gave himself to be a ransom. The concept is certainly in alignment with Jesus giving himself as a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God (Ephesians 5:1-2). Hebrews 9:15 also states that Jesus had died as a ransom or redemption of sins (apolutrosis), which literally means “release.”

This concept is then used in Colossians 1:14 and Ephesians 1:7 where we see that we have redemption or release through his blood, the forgiveness of sins.

So the forgiveness of sins is through his blood. We are released or bought back or redeemed from our sins through his blood. Jesus’ death redeems us from our sins. His life was a ransom for our sins, buying us back or releasing us from sin.

Since the wages of sin is death, the ransom appears to have been paid to “death” in order to release us from death. Hebrews 2:9 states that Jesus “suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone” (NIV). This is my tentative conclusion. See also 1 Corinthians 15:55-56. It appears that the ransom may have been paid to death. Jesus then rises from the dead destroying the devil and releasing us from death’s grasp or power over us. Again, these are tentative conclusions.

Some have claimed that Jesus was a ransom to the devil, who holds the power of death. I can’t find enough scriptural support for this concept. However, Hebrews 2:14-15 does explain that the death of Jesus “might destroy him who holds the power of death - that is, the devil - and free those who all their lives were held in slavery by their fear of death.”

So again, Jesus in his death as ransom destroys the devil, takes away or releases us from our sins, and defeats death.

So what does the atoning sacrifice (or ransom, that is, Jesus’ life) accomplish? It accomplishes three things: Christ’s sinless death destroys the devil, takes away our sins (the forgiveness of sins), and defeats the power of death.

Blessings.

Don,

I really don’t get your point that Christ’s ransom is paid to “death” itself. You seem to be stretching the interpretation of the Hebrews 2 and 1 Corinthians 15 passages in order to make “death” the recipient of the payment or ransom.

In addition, who subjected the created order to death? Romans 8:20 answers that question. Logically, then, the one who enacted the curse must be the one to whom the ransom is paid. Death is not an “actor” in the story of redemption, and therefore cannot logically be the recipient of the ransom payment. Rather, death is a consequence and result of sin … enacted by God upon the created order following the fall in the garden (Romans 5:12-14).

Don, are you denying the humanity of Christ? By saying that the only reason Jesus spoke the words of Psalm 22 was to draw attention to that particular scripture, you are in essence saying that he uttered those words without really feeling them. But all of the words that Jesus spoke on the cross were things that he was thinking and feeling in those moments. Like when he promised the thief that he would be with him in paradise. Or when he said that he was thirsty. Or when he asked John to watch over his mother. He was speaking those things in his humanity, a more perfect humanity than any of us have ever experienced.

When I read the Psalms aloud, I feel those things that the Psalmist wrote, because I am human, just like the person writing them. The psalms are the perfect expression of the human soul, in its most joyous moments, as well as in its anguish.

We need to be careful not to paint a simplistic view of scripture, as if it were nothing more than formulas for our theology. The words of scripture are history. They are words spoken by men. Men who loved, who experienced joy and pain and suffering.

Just because a man experiences sorrow, or grief, or mourning, or fear, or loneliness, does not make him any less spiritual. Often times, those who are most spiritual, are the ones who experiences these things most greatly. There are times when the Bible calls people to mourn and to weep. David was a man after God’s heart, yet his Psalms are often complaints about how the wicked man prospered, while the godly was pursued. I am sure that when David wrote the 22nd Psalm, he really did feel that God had forsaken him. If not, then his words lose all their meaning.

Jesus is our advocate, because he knows what it is like to be human. He has experienced human weakness. He was tempted in the desert. He was hungry and thirsty. He mourned the death of loved ones. If you turn all of Jesus words into merely bible references, then you are taking away from his humanity.

[Don Sailer]

Greg,

Answer one question.

What implications do you draw from the fact that the scripture writers refuse to apply the words “paid,” “penalty,” “punishment,” and “wrath” to the death of Christ?

Jesus Himself said He was the ransom for sin (Mark 10:45). The very word ransom means a redemption price; a price that is paid to redeem someone. The word “paid” isn’t used because the meaning is bound up in the word “ransom.” I could quote the EDNT or TDNT on this but I won’t for fear of my motives being questioned. :)

I and others have already done a sufficient job explaining the biblical texts that help us understand the aspects of penalty, punishment, and wrath, which are bound up in the word “propitiation,” so I won’t rehash that here.

Don,

Earlier you wrote that David wrote Psalm 22 even though he knows that he is not forsaken by God. You must be careful with your view. It is a slippery slope. For if you really believe this, then you must say this of all the Psalms. How do we know if David really felt the way he says he did in any of his Psalms? Was he merely making everything up, for dramatic effect? Were they really words from the heart?

[christian cerna]

How do we know if David really felt the way he says he did in any of his Psalms? Was he merely making everything up, for dramatic effect? Were they really words from the heart?

[Mark_Smith]

I am doing this for my own benefit. I have little doubt Don won’t see the significance of it.

In Galatians Paul says Christ became a curse for us (Gal 3:13). What is “a curse”? Don offered earlier that it meant “Jesus is a “curse” for us, meaning he died for us so that we might be justified.” Is Don’s definition valid?

Look earlier in Gal 3:10, “For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.”” So a curse comes on a person who doesn’t fulfill the Law as outlined in the Pentateuch. What is that curse? It is the various results of not following the Law as the Pentateuch outlines in various places. It can be death, financial loss, famine, lots of things.

Here is the important part. Jesus became the CURSE for us. He bore the brunt of our not following the Law on Himself. He faced the WRATH of God that resulted from our not following the Law. He fulfilled the Law in Himself by not sinning, but He also bore the result of us not fulfilling the Law.

Mark,

Can you see the leap of logic in your statement. You rightfully deduce that the curse can be “death, financial loss, famine, lots of things.” Well, you were right. The curse in Galatians 3:10 means death.

Jesus became the curse for us means that he died for us. Everything is good so far. Then you make this big leap. You go from Jesus dying for us to “He faced the WRATH of God.” Where did the verse state this? The curse of the law is death. Jesus died for us. That’s it. That’s all the verse is saying.

Well, actually, Paul felt compelled to add something more. Paul felt compelled to tell us that no one can be justified before God by the law. The implication is that those who live by faith are released from the curse of the law (death) and are justified.

Now if Paul wanted to say that Jesus became a curse for all and faced the wrath of God so that we could be justified, he could have stated this. For some reason, he didn’t.

[christian cerna]

Don,

Earlier you wrote that David wrote Psalm 22 even though he knows that he is not forsaken by God. You must be careful with your view. It is a slippery slope. For if you really believe this, then you must say this of all the Psalms. How do we know if David really felt the way he says he did in any of his Psalms? Was he merely making everything up, for dramatic effect? Were they really words from the heart?

That’s not quite what I stated. I stated that even David knew he wasn’t forsaken by God by the time he finished writing this psalm. He starts out with his cry, but then finishes with the affirmation that he is not forsaken by God.

[Greg Long]

[Don Sailer]

Greg,

Answer one question.

What implications do you draw from the fact that the scripture writers refuse to apply the words “paid,” “penalty,” “punishment,” and “wrath” to the death of Christ?

According to Is. 53, he was stricken, smitten, afflicted, wounded, bruised, and chastised for our iniquities (v. 4-5). By whom? By men, and by God (v. 10). Why? To “make His soul an offering for sin” (v. 10). With what result? God was satisfied and many were justified (v. 11).

Jesus Himself said He was the ransom for sin (Mark 10:45). The very word ransom means a redemption price; a price that is paid to redeem someone. The word “paid” isn’t used because the meaning is bound up in the word “ransom.” I could quote the EDNT or TDNT on this but I won’t for fear of my motives being questioned. :)

I and others have already done a sufficient job explaining the biblical texts that help us understand the aspects of penalty, punishment, and wrath, which are bound up in the word “propitiation,” so I won’t rehash that here.

Gingrich Lexicon:

hilasmo and hilasterion

3202 i`lasmo,j
i`lasmo,j, ou/, o` expiation, sin offering {\field{\*\fldinst{HYPERLINK “BwRef(‘BGT_1Jo 2:2’)”}}{\fldrslt{\cf0\ul 1 J 2:2}}}\cf1\ulnone ; {\field{\*\fldinst{HYPERLINK “BwRef(‘BGT_1Jo 4:10’)”}}{\fldrslt{\cf0\ul 4:10}}}\cf1\ulnone .* [pg 93]

3203 i`lasth,rion
i`lasth,rion, ou, to, means of expiation, place of expiation {\field{\*\fldinst{HYPERLINK “BwRef(‘BGT_Rom 3:25’)”}}{\fldrslt{\cf0\ul Ro 3:25}}}\cf1\ulnone ; {\field{\*\fldinst{HYPERLINK “BwRef(‘BGT_Heb 9:5’)”}}{\fldrslt{\cf0\ul Hb 9:5}}}\cf1\ulnone .* [pg 93]

You said that the last line of psalm 22 is “it is finished”. But I am not seeing that? Can you help me out?

[Greg Long]

[Don Sailer]

Greg,

Answer one question.

Jesus Himself said He was the ransom for sin (Mark 10:45). The very word ransom means a redemption price; a price that is paid to redeem someone. The word “paid” isn’t used because the meaning is bound up in the word “ransom.” I could quote the EDNT or TDNT on this but I won’t for fear of my motives being questioned. :)

Good.

God gave a ransom (Jesus) to whom? death? sin? the devil?

And when God gave the ransom (Jesus) for all (1 Timothy 2:6), what happened?

[christian cerna]

You said that the last line of psalm 22 is “it is finished”. But I am not seeing that? Can you help me out?

The last word of Psalm 22 is the Hebrew word “asa’.” It means “done” or finished.

Asa’ is translated in Psalm 22:31 as “he has done it.” It could just as correctly be translated “it is finished.”

[KenFields]

[Don Sailer]

[Jay]

[Don Sailer]

I do find the analogy of the OT sacrificial system of the sin offering. I also find an analogy of ransom.

Hi Don-

I’ve seen this thrown out a few times but haven’t seen an explanation of ‘ransom’. In your analogy of ransom - who is the one that demands the ransom? God?

I’m not sure that I agree with you on ‘ransom’, but it’s hard to tell with all the posts and crossposts. If you can enlighten me, I’d appreciate it.

I also have to admit that I’m surprised that there is a thread on SI that has more than 100+ replies that DOESN’T mention Northland or music. Well, aside from my mentions in this post.

:D

Ugh! You just ruined it! :)

Matthew 20:28 states that the life of Jesus is a ransom (lutron). 1 Timothy 2:6 also states that Jesus himself is the ransom (antilutron). In fact it states that Jesus gave himself to be a ransom. The concept is certainly in alignment with Jesus giving himself as a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God (Ephesians 5:1-2). Hebrews 9:15 also states that Jesus had died as a ransom or redemption of sins (apolutrosis), which literally means “release.”

This concept is then used in Colossians 1:14 and Ephesians 1:7 where we see that we have redemption or release through his blood, the forgiveness of sins.

So the forgiveness of sins is through his blood. We are released or bought back or redeemed from our sins through his blood. Jesus’ death redeems us from our sins. His life was a ransom for our sins, buying us back or releasing us from sin.

Since the wages of sin is death, the ransom appears to have been paid to “death” in order to release us from death. Hebrews 2:9 states that Jesus “suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone” (NIV). This is my tentative conclusion. See also 1 Corinthians 15:55-56. It appears that the ransom may have been paid to death. Jesus then rises from the dead destroying the devil and releasing us from death’s grasp or power over us. Again, these are tentative conclusions.

Some have claimed that Jesus was a ransom to the devil, who holds the power of death. I can’t find enough scriptural support for this concept. However, Hebrews 2:14-15 does explain that the death of Jesus “might destroy him who holds the power of death - that is, the devil - and free those who all their lives were held in slavery by their fear of death.”

So again, Jesus in his death as ransom destroys the devil, takes away or releases us from our sins, and defeats death.

So what does the atoning sacrifice (or ransom, that is, Jesus’ life) accomplish? It accomplishes three things: Christ’s sinless death destroys the devil, takes away our sins (the forgiveness of sins), and defeats the power of death.

Blessings.

Don,

I really don’t get your point that Christ’s ransom is paid to “death” itself. You seem to be stretching the interpretation of the Hebrews 2 and 1 Corinthians 15 passages in order to make “death” the recipient of the payment or ransom.

In addition, who subjected the created order to death? Romans 8:20 answers that question. Logically, then, the one who enacted the curse must be the one to whom the ransom is paid. Death is not an “actor” in the story of redemption, and therefore cannot logically be the recipient of the ransom payment. Rather, death is a consequence and result of sin … enacted by God upon the created order following the fall in the garden (Romans 5:12-14).

Ken,

I stated a tentative conclusion. I don’t know for sure who God paid the ransom to. Was it to death personified? Was it to sin? Was it to the devil? I don’t know for sure. Do you?

And because I’m not sure I don’t make sweeping statements about who God paid the ransom to. If I did I would be reading into the text something I’m not sure of!

So why are many so quick to read into the text the idea that when Jesus died for our sins he bore God’s wrath? The text of Scripture doesn’t say this anywhere. So if I make this claim, I am reading into the text something that isn’t there.

You can easily question my comments about God paying a ransom to “death.” Now you should just as easily question other people’s comments about God pouring out his wrath on Jesus.

Don, you didn’t respond to my post earlier where I mentioned that the word wrath can mean “punishment for an offense”. In that sense of the word, Jesus did bear the wrath of God for our sins.