Are Rules Dangerous? Part 2

Read Part 1

“Rules were meant to be broken,” an old adage goes. Christians tend to have a different attitude, but we recognize a kernel of truth in the folk wisdom. Rules are just so often wrong-headed, excessive, or motivated by foolish fears or lust for power. Sometimes they get in the way of the very things they are intended to accomplish.

Christian ministries can have too many rules and develop a cold, offense-focused culture. They can also err by according some rules a spiritual significance and power they don’t possess. These problems require that we give serious thought to what rules we have and what they are really accomplishing. But we should not overreact to the excesses and errors, criticize rules systems too broadly and blame them for problems that have other causes.

In Part 1 of this series, I presented two arguments for valuing rules more than most young Fundamentalists are inclined to. Here, I offer a third argument, then respond to some objections.

Argument from the nature of rules

A common complaint against rules systems is that they are prone to become what the Pharisees loved and Jesus condemned in Matthew 23 and Mark 7. The Pharisees had a habit of binding “heavy burdens, hard to bear, and lay[ing] them on men’s shoulders” (Matt. 23:4). In addition, they were guilty of “teaching as doctrines the commandments of men” (Mark 7:7).

These “commandments of men” were often fences: man-made rules added to torah in order to avoid violations of torah. Though the fence rules were not from God, the Pharisees routinely vested them with all the authority and seriousness of those God had revealed. They even went so far as to use their man-made rules as reasons to disobey God’s rules (Mark 7:8-13).

A side-by-side comparison seems to suggest that rules-heavy Fundamentalist ministries often do the same thing: erect fences and either officially, or by neglecting important teaching, encourage people to believe these commandments of men are equal to doctrine from God. I do not dispute that this happens. But this offense of the Pharisees is not as easy to commit as it may seem. This is true for several reasons.

Differences

First, the Pharisees were far from God and not truly interested in living holy lives (more on this later). Though often unsuccessful, Fundamentalist rule makers almost always hope to produce behavior that honors God.

Second, in my experience, constituents of rules-heavy institutions are not all that likely to see the rules as “doctrines of God” unless someone presents them as such (and even then it’s a hard sell). Believers are usually well aware that many of the rules reflect the consciences of those who are in charge in matters where Scripture is not entirely clear. In our highly individualistic age, most Christians are more than willing to question whether these rules are truly biblical.

And even with these rules in place believers are free to think matters through and arrive at their own beliefs. Today’s rule makers are Pharisee-like when they equate their rules with God’s revelation, but they are not committing this offense by simply saying “these are the rules” and leaving it at that.

Third, it’s significant that Jesus never actually faulted the Pharisees for making rules. Rather, when speaking of their rules, He faulted them for the hypocrisy of laying them on others when they had no intention of obeying them themselves (Matt. 23:4) and for the outrage of using their rules to subvert the commandments of God (Mark 7:8-13).

Fourth, we are all called to apply Scripture in ways that extend beyond what is directly revealed. Hebrews 5:13-14 calls us to develop discernment regarding the use of Scripture. Why would we need these skills unless God expects us to go beyond what He has directly commanded or prohibited and apply principles to other choices we face?

As we do that, we declare things to be right or wrong. We form rules. Since Romans 13:14 commands us not to set ourselves up for failure, a certain amount of fence making is also commanded. So “man-made rules” are essential—not only those we impose on ourselves by application, but also those imposed by leaders who watch for our souls (Heb. 13:17).

To summarize, the argument from the nature of rules is that the motivations and results of rule-making match the error of the Pharisees—and fall under Jesus’ condemnation—only when certain other errors are made. Rules themselves are not the problem and are, in fact, integral to biblical living.

Objections

Part 1 argued that the nature of sin and holiness are such that rules are often a real help in Christian living. Sin is so damaging, and obedience so helpful (to believers), that avoiding the former and choosing the latter always contributes to a believer’s growth. Though a discipler’s aim should always be obedience with faith and love, avoiding sin and doing right are always better than the alternative, even when faith and love are incomplete.

But this idea does raise questions. For one, if rules can help believers avoid sin and choose obedience, why not make as many of them as possible? Part of the answer is that a rule can fail in many ways and a limited number of them can actually accomplish their intended purpose. If a rule is the result of misunderstood or incorrectly applied Scripture, it fails. If a rule is an overreaching of authority, it may succeed in preventing the targeted sin yet do more harm than good in other ways.

Rule-making does carry risks, but not making rules poses many dangers as well. The attitude that “rules are dangerous and individual freedom is healthy” is naive.

Love

Another objection asserts that doing right is useless if not motivated by love, and rules often replace love with self-interest (avoiding punishment). “Though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor…and have not love, it profits me nothing” (1 Cor. 13:3). The point of this passage is clearly that love is of supreme importance in Christian living. But taking the passage to mean “if I lack love what I do has zero value” requires a selectively literal reading. That is, if we take “profits me nothing” literally, we must also take “have not love” literally. The result is “zero love, zero value.” And when does a believer act with no love for the Lord at all? More likely, the poetic cadences of the passage indicate that we should not read it so literally. The apostle is not teaching that if love is lacking we might as well go ahead and do wrong.

“Touch not, taste not, handle not”

Some who object to a more positive view of rules point to Colossians 2:20-23. But the context is critical to understanding Paul’s point. Colossians was written to combat a growing proto-gnosticism that spread erroneous ideas about the nature of Christ as well as the nature of body and spirit. Asceticism played a key role in this philosophy and appears in v.23 (“neglect of the body”). Paul’s point was that those who have been buried and raised in Christ do not attempt to achieve their own righteousness by punishing their bodies. To the degree modern leaders adopt this way of thinking, they too become the targets of Paul’s rebuke. But rule making does not encourage gnostic thinking any more than rule un-making encourages antinomian thinking.

The error of the Pharisees

The most popular objection to a more positive view of rules centers on the Pharisees. The idea is that the frequency and intensity of criticism of the Pharisees in the Gospels indicates that believers are extremely vulnerable to the problem of “legalism” and that rule making tends to feed this error. But a close look at Jesus’ rebukes of the Pharisees suggests the Pharisees had deeper and more serious problem.

Jesus unmasks the Pharisees most thoroughly in Matthew 23. He reveals that the they imposed rules on others they themselves had no intention of obeying (Matt. 23:4) and that they were in love with the praise of men (Matt. 23:6-7). They tried to look good in public while committing “extortion and self-indulgence” (Matt. 23:25) and “devour[ing] widows houses” (Matt. 23:14) behind the scenes. But their greatest error was aggressive unbelief. They refused to enter the kingdom of heaven and sought to prevent others from entering as well (Matt. 23:14). Both John the Baptist and Jesus called them a “brood of vipers” (Matt. 3:7, 23:33), indicating that they were the spiritual kin of Satan himself.

A closely related error was the Pharisees’ belief in their own righteousness. They set up their own selective standards of righteousness (Matt. 23:23-24) and believed they could achieve righteousness before God by their own efforts (along with the vast majority of their countrymen, Romans 10:3). The Pharisees were self-righteous legalists not because they had strict and numerous rules, but because they were proud and unbelieving. This deep darkness of the soul drove all they did and said.

There was only one cure for the Pharisees, and there remains only one cure for Phariseeism today: the gospel. The gospel confronts us with our utter inability to achieve our own righteousness and commands that we accept instead the righteousness of God which is credited to sinners who do not deserve it in the least. The gospel is deeply and profoundly humbling, and believers who keep its truths front-of-mind do not stumble into self-righteousness or legalism under rules, no matter how numerous or strict.

Conclusion

Are rules dangerous? Given human nature, rule-making certainly poses hazards. But the same human nature indicates that not making rules is also hazardous. Leaders of Christian schools and other institutions must communicate the why’s and wherefore’s of their rules. But ultimately, what makes the difference is whether students and other constituents are reborn, adopted, Spirit-indwelt believers continually gripped by the gospel of Christ.


Aaron Blumer, SI’s site publisher, is a native of lower Michigan and a graduate of Bob Jones University (Greenville, SC) and Central Baptist Theological Seminary (Plymouth, MN). He, his wife, and their two children live in a small town in western Wisconsin, where he has pastored Grace Baptist Church (Boyceville, WI) since 2000. Prior to serving as a pastor, Aaron taught school in Stone Mountain, Georgia, and served in customer service and technical support for Unisys Corporation (Eagan, MN). He enjoys science fiction, music, and dabbling in software development.

Discussion

I wonder why they ban abercrombe and fitch but not disney?

Anne, I’m tempted to defend several of these rules, but there’s really no point. Examples of rules we think are outdated, extreme, inept etc.—even if we’re right in our evaluation of them—doesn’t prove that rule making is inherently dangerous or legalistic or that wise rules cannot be developed that actually help believers (indirectly) grow in grace.

(Edit: you’ll notice though that this rule list is not very preachy… it just says “this is required, this isn’t allowed” etc. … I don’t see very much “This is sin. This is worldly. This is wrong.” in there. )

Some of you might find the discussion going on here interesting:

http://www.joshgelatt.com/2009/10/sharper-iron-younger-faces-same-old.h…

Views expressed are always my own and not my employer's, my church's, my family's, my neighbors', or my pets'. The house plants have authorized me to speak for them, however, and they always agree with me.

Aaron,

You wrote: “[rules] actually help believers (indirectly) grow in grace”.

This is where the biggest divide between you and I would exist. Other than your personal opinion/observations, on what do you base this statement? Since all of here claim to be sola scriptura, could you please defend this idea from scripture. Show me where Scripture would share (or even hint to) this point of view.

If you cannot, then I’ll repeat the observation I made over on my blog: how does this differ, methodologically, from Roman Catholicism? Don’t they make religious truth claims and then appeal to an authority outside of scripture? While theirs is the appeal to the authority of tradition & hierarchy (“the pope said so”), yours seems to be the appeal to personal pragmatism (“well, gee, I think it works pretty good”).

Let’s pretend we are Bereans and search the scriptures to see if this is so.

[Aaron Blumer] Anne, I’m tempted to defend several of these rules, but there’s really no point. Examples of rules we think are outdated, extreme, inept etc.—even if we’re right in our evaluation of them—doesn’t prove that rule making is inherently dangerous or legalistic or that wise rules cannot be developed that actually help believers (indirectly) grow in grace.
oh, i don’t know. seems like we’re all talking vaguely to each other about certain things and it would help to put in concrete things to discuss.

you say rules help us spiritually. which ones on this list are helpful in that way, for example?

[Josh Gelatt] Aaron,

You wrote: “[rules] actually help believers (indirectly) grow in grace”.

This is where the biggest divide between you and I would exist. Other than your personal opinion/observations, on what do you base this statement? Since all of here claim to be sola scriptura, could you please defend this idea from scripture. Show me where Scripture would share (or even hint to) this point of view.

Let’s pretend we are Bereans and search the scriptures to see if this is so.
Josh, I made that case in the articles. But I don’t mind summarizing again. I’ve summarized about half a dozen times in the discussion, but it’s been a couple days, so I think I won’t go bonkers doing it again. And each time, I can frame it a little differently and that might be helpful.

In [URL=http://sharperiron.org/article/are-rules-dangerous-part-1] Part 1[/URL] , I offered two arguments, one from what the Bible teaches about sin and one from what the Bible teaches about obedience/holiness.

In the case of sin, I argued that sin is always spiritually damaging, and provided a quick summary of ways. I didn’t use Scripture references there because I don’t think that particular point is in dispute. To focus on a couple of items in that list of damaging effects, let’s take “interrupts fellowship with God” (1 John 1:9) and “dulls spiritual senses” (Heb.3:13). Is anyone going to deny that fellowship with God is vital to growing in Grace? Are we going to deny that spiritual sensitivity is vital to it? My conclusion was that whenever a rule results in a believer not sinning it has been instrumental in his growth. I illustrated w/the rule banning attendance to drinking parties. At your blog, I posted a better example: a rule against husbands beating their wives.

In case of obedience, I argued that a Christian (all of whom are regenerated, Spirit indwelt, “in Christ,” and much more) always benefits spiritually from doing something right, because doing right sharpens our spiritual senses (Heb. 5:14) and enhances our fellowship with God (1 John 1:5-6) among other blessings (like the habit forming aspect of it, which is implied everywhere we are enjoined to “walk” a certain way). So whenever a rule results in a believer doing right rather than wrong (or perhaps better rather than worse), some progress occurs in his life.

All the while, I’ve repeatedly acknowledged that the ultimate goal must always be obedience with faith and love, not mere conformity. But, in the life of a believer, conformity is better than sin and is movement in the right direction.

Some verses on the general idea that obedience results in growth… Col.1:10 (here knowledge increases with obedience), 2Cor.7:1 (here “cleansing” must refer to refraining from sinning, since he is speaking to already-cleansed believers), Heb.13.17 (where obeying those who have the rule is profitable for us), 1 Tim.4:7-8 (where exercise must include obedience… with the result of profit in this life and the next).

In [URL=http://sharperiron.org/article/are-rules-dangerous-part-2] Part 2[/URL] , I argued that many rules are applications of Scripture and that Jesus’ condemnation of the Pharisee’s “commandments of men” does not refer to these, especially when we do not equate our applications with the Word itself. It’s pretty concise there so I think I’ll just quote it…

[Quote=Aaron Blumer] we are all called to apply Scripture in ways that extend beyond what is directly revealed. Hebrews 5:13-14 calls us to develop discernment regarding the use of Scripture. Why would we need these skills unless God expects us to go beyond what He has directly commanded or prohibited and apply principles to other choices we face?

As we do that, we declare things to be right or wrong. We form rules. Since Romans 13:14 commands us not to set ourselves up for failure, a certain amount of fence making is also commanded. So “man-made rules” are essential—not only those we impose on ourselves by application, but also those imposed by leaders who watch for our souls (Heb. 13:17).As an example of this sort of application, again, I’d point you to the “Husbands shall not beat their wives” example I posted at your blog. Though there is no written rule at our church on this, it is certainly a rule and one we enforce. And it’s also an application of Scripture because the Bible doesn’t say anywhere “Husbands, don’t beat your wives.”

So, is there a verse somewhere that says “Obeying a rule can help you be more sanctified”? No. There is also no verse that says “God exists in three distinct co-equal Persons who comprise the one God.” Which leads me to an interesting coincidence…

Orthodoxy and orthopraxy

Some of the most vocal antagonists against rules are also very supportive of creeds and confessions. But creeds and confessions are, by their very nature, “beyond what is written” and derived from it (the Westminster Divines did not choose to merely string together long sequences of Scripture excerpts!). Yet we recognize these have great value in preserving orthodoxy.

But somehow, when it comes to preserving orthopraxy, we may not go beyond what is written without creating great harm. Hmmm.

Views expressed are always my own and not my employer's, my church's, my family's, my neighbors', or my pets'. The house plants have authorized me to speak for them, however, and they always agree with me.

Aaron, I appreciate your articles. I agree with much of your argument. I would have liked to have seen one additional danger listed to making and enforcing rules. I find it in Paul’s confession in Romans 7. There is in our fallen human nature a certain perversity that is actually enflamed by rules. Paul confesses that he saw this perversity in his own heart with regard to the 10th Commandment. Certainly, it is also enflamed in many of our hearts by man-made rules as well. Who hasn’t seen a sign that says, “Wet Paint. Do Not Touch,” and we just couldn’t help ourselves but touch it anyhow! Any time we make rules in any human institution, we need to weigh this factor IMO.

Students are not permitted to visit Dunkin’ Donuts at _____________ Street and ______________ Street before or after school.

––— Once a part of the student handbook at a Christian day school –––—

A friend at work attended and graduated from this school. He related this to me.

[Anne Sokol]
[Aaron Blumer] Anne, I’m tempted to defend several of these rules, but there’s really no point. Examples of rules we think are outdated, extreme, inept etc.—even if we’re right in our evaluation of them—doesn’t prove that rule making is inherently dangerous or legalistic or that wise rules cannot be developed that actually help believers (indirectly) grow in grace.
oh, i don’t know. seems like we’re all talking vaguely to each other about certain things and it would help to put in concrete things to discuss.

you say rules help us spiritually. which ones on this list are helpful in that way, for example?
Well, not a bad question, but not having much data on the practical results of the list you posted, I’ll stick to the examples I’ve already provided in the articles and also scattered through the discussion. So far, I like my “No wife beating” rule best. But someone’s likely to find holes in it soon and I’ll have to come up with a better one. :)

Views expressed are always my own and not my employer's, my church's, my family's, my neighbors', or my pets'. The house plants have authorized me to speak for them, however, and they always agree with me.

[pgerard] Aaron, I appreciate your articles. I agree with much of your argument. I would have liked to have seen one additional danger listed to making and enforcing rules. I find it in Paul’s confession in Romans 7. There is in our fallen human nature a certain perversity that is actually enflamed by rules. Paul confesses that he saw this perversity in his own heart with regard to the 10th Commandment. Certainly, it is also enflamed in many of our hearts by man-made rules as well. Who hasn’t seen a sign that says, “Wet Paint. Do Not Touch,” and we just couldn’t help ourselves but touch it anyhow! Any time we make rules in any human institution, we need to weigh this factor IMO.
Yes, you have an important issue there. Not easily answered though. Romans 7 is just plain tough sledding. Since I’ve been preaching through Romans this year, and did ch.7 a month or so ago, it’s somewhat fresh in my mind. I guarantee I cannot provide an interpretation of the text that will not be soundly rejected by several poeple (because all interps of the ch. have been thus soundly rejected by one expositor or another).

So… I hesitate to even go there, but I’ll summarize. When Paul describes the sin-inflaming aspect of law in the ch., he usually speaks in the past tense.

In Rom 7:5, for example he says “when we were in the flesh” and refers to how law “aroused” “sinful passions.” But then says in Rom. 7:6 that we have been delivered from law by being married to the Lawgiver.

I take that as key to interpreting the rest of the ch. So, after that, I think P. is (among other things) describing how our relationship to law has changed. In Rom 7:8, where he describes law “producing” in him “all…desire” he also speaks in the past tense.

He affirms that law is good (Rom 7:7, 7:12) and even “spiritiual” (Rom 7:14). To simplify (probably too much), I think 7:15-24 or so are about explaining that the sin principle is still present in us, though, as believers, we actually “delight” (Rom 7:22) in the law of God in the inner man. Hence the conflicts we experience. By the time you get to 8:4, he has explained that the Spirit in us produces lawful conduct where our own efforts failed to produce it without Him (Rom. 8:4).

In summary, I believe law (as in God’s standard of righteousness) provokes sinful rebellion only in two situations: a) an unbeliever is involved—one not yet “married” (another desc. of union with Christ) to the Lawgiver, or b) the sin that is still present in us (Rom 7:21) reacts rebelliously to it. Rom. 7 “law” is not about man-made rules or even about Mosaic law especially, but the way sinful human nature responds to God’s righteous requirements generally.

Hope that helps some.

Views expressed are always my own and not my employer's, my church's, my family's, my neighbors', or my pets'. The house plants have authorized me to speak for them, however, and they always agree with me.

Aaron,

Thanks for providing some scripture, but you still have not addressed the issue. You still have not provided any scriptural support for the concept that man-made rules aid in sanctification. At best, you’ve just used unrelated scriptures while still resting your case on the authority of pragmatism.

You write: “My conclusion was that whenever a rule results in a believer not sinning it has been instrumental in his growth.” Eh? And where from scripture have you drawn this conclusion? Man-made rules are never described as having this power in Scripture. No rule made by man can, in any degree, keep a person from sinning. At the very most it can only constrain an individual from the outward manifestation of sin—and Jesus was never very impressed by such constraint.

The rule about husbands not beating their wives is an excellent example of the POWERLESSNESS and FOOLISHNESS of rules, not of their power. At best, such a rule can only keep a woman from being beaten. I’ll admit, this is in some (moralistic) sense better than her taking a beating from an irate husband. But, over at my blog you were trying in vain to highlight how this rule is a necessary outgrowth and application of the biblical rule to “love your wife”. But while forbidding the beating of wives will produce wives who are not physically assaulted, it will never produce men who love their wives. Thus, your man-made rule is powerless and plays no part in the process of sanctification. It can never, by any means, reach one to the level of biblical obedience—which is why no such rule exists in the New Testament (God, in His sovereignty, did not appeal to a powerless rule—so why should we?) In fact, your rule actually detracts from the biblical command by placing the emphasis elsewhere. It is easy not to beat your wife, it is very hard to love her. Man-made rules always reduce scripture to powerless moralism that can be easily obeyed–without the cross, without Christ, and without the Spirit. Fine–a man obeys your rule and doesn’t beat his wife. Yet you have lead him no closer to obeying Christ by loving his wife. You’ve described a perfect example of moralism, not gospel-saturated sanctification.

My resistance to this is firm and sharp, not because I believe you to be a legalist, but because your method has lead you (perhaps unknowingly) to share authority with something other than scripture. Through hermeneutical gymnastics, you’ve come to believe that application of scripture will—at least at times—involve rule-making. I maintain, as the Reformers did, that human innovation in such areas will ultimately lead to an abandonment of scripture’s authority (at least in part). Far too many movements have shared this method, all to the ultimate detriment of the Gospel.

Josh,

Declaring that I still have no Scriptural support kind of requires that you answer the Scriptural support I provided. Maybe explain how the biblical evidence I’ve provided has been wrongly interpreted or how I have reasoned incorrectly from it. Both are certainly possible, but you haven’t even attempted to show it.

It’s not really persuasive to broadly dismiss Scripture on the grounds that somehow it violates the authority of—well, Scripture (or a miscontrued view of sola scriptura).

Would it surprise you to know that John Calvin named some very specific extra-biblical rules for ministers in the Institutues? I suppose that makes Calvin a legalist who does not really believe in sola scriptura. :D

It’s true. In his great theological work, he asserted that pastors must not attend dances… or even go hunting. Institutes IV xii #22. I assume you have a copy, but many others probably don’t, so…

[Quote=John Calvin] We come now to the second part of discipline, which relates specially to the clergy. It is contained in the canons, which the ancient bishops framed for themselves and their order: for instance, let no clergyman spend his time in hunting, in gaming, or in feasting; let none engage in usury or in trade; let none be present at lascivious dances, and the like. Penalties also were added to give a sanction to the authority of the canons, that none might violate them with impunity. With this view, each bishop was intrusted with the superintendence of his own clergy, that he might govern them according to the canons, and keep them to their duty. For this purpose, certain annual visitations and synods were appointed, that if any one was negligent in his office he might be admonished; if any one sinned, he might be punished according to his fault. I happen to believe he was wrong in some of his particulars there, but I’m just pointing out that what I’m teaching here (that Scripture well applied invariably leads to some rule making) is not radical at all or new, but the understanding of sola scriptura that requires us to truncate the application of Scripture to lifestyle choices is the new and erroneous development.

Views expressed are always my own and not my employer's, my church's, my family's, my neighbors', or my pets'. The house plants have authorized me to speak for them, however, and they always agree with me.

Aaron.

Let me respond to your scriptures, though they do not address your claims.

1 John 1:9 - Sin “interrupts fellowship with God”. I agree.

Heb 3:13 - Sin dulls spiritual senses. I agree.

Heb 5:14 - Solid food & discernment awaken the senses. I agree (though note that the solid food here is Scripture).

1 John 1:5-6 - Walking in His truth produces fellowship with God. I agree (though again note here we are directed to Scripture).

Col 1:10 - “Knowledge of God’s word increases with obedience.” That’s not exactly what it states (it just says knowledge of God’s word and obedience both increase as we walk with God). But overall I still agree.

2 Cor 7:1 “Cleansing refers to refraining from sin”. Partially agree, it also refers to actively putting on holiness.

Heb.13.17 “obey those in authority”. Agree, but the point here isn’t to obey their man-made rules, but their teaching & imitation of God’s word (cf Heb 13:7).

1 Tim 4:7-8 “exercise must include obedience”. True, but the verse also tells us to walk away from silly myths. The focus is on being godly, as revealed in Scripture (which is the point of the entire letter).

So, these scriptures repeatedly affirm what I have been saying–-it is God’s Word alone to which we must heed. Without exception, every Scripture you provided instructs us to obey God’s Word–-without even a hint that we have the right to add rules.

There is no truncating of scripture in my approach. When we find a man who beats his wife we dare not confront him with a silly rule (the irreverent, silly myths” of 1 Tim 4), but rather we confront him with the Biblical command to love his wife—and walk him through the full weight and implications of that teaching, not reduce God’s tremendous command to a silly, powerless, and trite rule that lacks sanctifying power. A rule is easily obeyed, and carnal man can in his own power refrain from beating his wife. But only a man born again and led by God’s spirit can love his wife the way Christ commands.

I understand you cherish scripture. But your great error is that you believe you must enhance it and make it more specific to be meaningful. I believe that you simply must declare it, live it, and explain and because it is a power in and of itself–and it promises that it will not return void.

You also seem to claim that your lack of scripture to defend the notion that man-made rules helps in sanctification is like lack of scripture to prove the Trinity. This is incredibly specious. Scripture clearly says there is one God. It also clearly says that Jesus is God, and that the Holy Spirit is God. The doctrine of the Trinity only explains what Scripture clearly says.

Again, where does Scripture say that we can make rules? Where does it say such rules aid in sanctification? At least with the Trinity we are piecing together scriptural teaching. Your position has no scripture to piece together, and the very scriptures you give undermine your position.

Aaron,

Just to point out where you may have misread Calvin, if you reread that in context please note:

1.) Calvin is not asserting rules against hunting or dancing for ministers.

2.) Calvin is providing information regarding such practices/rules from the tail-end of the Early Church period, which was the rise of the historical Catholic Church. In fact, Calvin goes on in section 22 and following to relate how this practice degenerated into silly, unholy rule keeping. He writes, “How this whole procedure became obsolete it is needless to relate, since, in the present day, nothing can be imagined more lawless and dissolute than this order, whose licentiousness is so extreme that the whole world is crying out.”

Still, I would agree that Calvin saw benefit in such discipline for the clergy (though he himself did not reinstitute those rules). He held the Church Fathers in very high regard, almost to the point of idolizing their monasticism. HOWEVER, in the next paragraph Calvin writes:

“[The clergy] were more strict against themselves than the vulgar; and, indeed, it is becoming that the people should be ruled by a kindlier, and, if I may so speak, laxer discipline; that the clergy should be stricter in their censures, and less indulgent to themselves than to others.”

Calvin DID advocate personal strictness. He affirmed and valued the need for pastors to hold themselves to very strict standards while at the same time affirming the need to be gentle and “kindlier” to non-clergy.

Yet as you pointed out, Calvin was not fully consistent in this practice, nor was Luther (though at least the German was much more outspoken against “devilish innovations” that “war against the grace of Christ”.

Josh,

I’m going to yield at this point. I’m just out of time to give to it. Will leave it to readers to decide whether it is possible to accept the premises you have accepted and yet reject the conclusions that I’ve argued must flow from them. And also whether I’ve handled the Scriptures I’ve referred to accurately. Likewise for Calvin. Folks can read the entire chapter here: http://www.ccel.org/ccel/calvin/institutes.v.vii.html

I’m personally fairly satisfied that I’ve made a good case, though I believe it can be done better. Another day, maybe… or maybe it’s for someone else to do.

One thing is for sure, the whole discussion has sent me off reflecting and pondering and reading and studying quite a bit more than i would have without all the challenges. Suddenly, I’m all excited about reading Baxter and Owen and Calvin again. And for that I thank everyone for “taking shots” at these ideas. :)

Edit: oops, wrong link. The chapter in question in Institutes is here: http://www.ccel.org/ccel/calvin/institutes.vi.xiii.html

Views expressed are always my own and not my employer's, my church's, my family's, my neighbors', or my pets'. The house plants have authorized me to speak for them, however, and they always agree with me.

Trying… not… to … post… >clunk!< (sound of Aaron falling for it one more time)

OK, a couple of thoughts just refuse to stay in my head. My “no wife beating” example. Just want to point out that, in my view, there is a difference between “love your wives” and “don’t beat your wives.” The words are different. The latter is an application of the former, and any time we apply in this way, we are doing something very like making a rule. Often the process is not complete, unless it results in firmly saying no to something and insisting on it. Which, I submit, is a rule.

Secondly, I’ve already shown how the biblical evidence says obedience results in growth. And I’ve also shown that obedience requires application (by the way, Heb. 5.14 says “by reason of use” the senses are sharpened). So really, the only way to deny that rules (the kind that are applications of Scripture) can indirectly contribute to growth is to either deny that we ought to apply Scripture or deny that applications often are rules.

So… to be precise about the difference between Josh’s view and mine, it must boil down to “applications are not rules” (which must also mean “don’t beat your wives” is not a rule in his view).

Which really means we don’t disagree all that much. He calls them applicaitons. I call them rules. Either way, they are things we infer from Scripture that are indeed required though not expressly stated. And in requiring these things, we are helping folks learn to live soberly, righteously and godly in the present age.

Finally, just to blow a bit of smoke from the mirrors, I have already repeatedly expressly denied that keeping the rule externally is enough (yes, to a degree, any unbeliever can do that). I’ve also pointed out that no believer ever does right only externally. Though he may act with only the rule’s penalty in mind, the overall context is still his love for the Lord and a belief that he at least indirectly pleases God by complying with the wishes of legitimate authority. John and others are quite clear that where there is no love for God, there is no child of God.

But—I can’t resist—in addition to all of these arguments (which still stand as far as I can tell) another one comes to mind. Who of us has not obeyed someone in leadership over us without really understanding their reasons, only to discover understanding in the act of obedience? (Actually, come to think of it, I believe I’ve already made this argument before as well.) If you grow up in a believing household, you experience this many times over. “Because I said so (and I love you and I’m looking out for you)” is your friend until you are able to understand. This is what Col.1.10 alludes to, as I think I mentioned before. Sometimes you learn, then do. Other times you do, and then learn.

Views expressed are always my own and not my employer's, my church's, my family's, my neighbors', or my pets'. The house plants have authorized me to speak for them, however, and they always agree with me.