Obama: I won’t make churches conduct gay marriages

Christian,

I hope you realize that modern science is now the 67th book of the Bible, and that the Bible must be re-interpeted to harmonize with its seemingly infallible conclusions.

I wonder… which genes cause a man to practice bestiality? And are people born with a tendency commit incest?

Yes, Mike. I just learned that in Sunday School when we were reading Chapter 32 verse 12 of the Letter of Darwin to the Macedonians.

[Mike Harding]

Christian,

I hope you realize that modern science is now the 67th book of the Bible, and that the Bible must be re-interpeted to harmonize with its seemingly infallible conclusions.

Look, just using common sense tells us things:
1. While there is no unique temptation that some individual has that no one else doesn’t, we are all tempted to different things. I am tempted to oversleep when I have the opportunity. Conversely, there are people that prefer to sleep as little as possible to function properly. Who is to say that there isn’t some form of genetic trait that leads to those differences.
2. There is no doubt that there are behavior issues that are related to genetic abnormalities.
3. God uses means in His interactions with mankind, what makes people think that the genetics of someone couldn’t be the means for this?

In the end I’ll stick with scripture and point out from Romans 1 that those that are not thankful for the good things that God gives them are the ones that end up having God give them over to such wicked desires.

And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting; being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers, backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving, unmerciful; who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things rare deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them.

Romans 1:28-32

Seems to me that sinfulness is a condition of the mind.

Wicked desires? That’s my entire point. There is no indication in Scripture that homosexuality is a biological orientation as opposed to a sinful choice, cultivated and nurtured by the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the boastful pride of life. The argument of the left is that man has no more control of his homosexual orientation than he does the color of his skin–thus, it is a civil rights issue comparable to the race issue. Christ, however, did not die to save us from a biological orientation; he died to save from our sin. There is a difference between Total Depravity and Total Corruption. All are born Totally Depraved; all, however, do not become Totally Corrupt. Homosexuality is a sign of significant corruption, along with many other unlawful and unnatural behaviors listed above. Any human being has the potential of committing the most vile of sins. Thus, the cure for sin is not a scientist, surgeon, or psychologist. The cure is a Savior who regenerates a man and imparts to him a new nature. Modern science has nothing to offer us here.

Nice false dilemma…

Of course, you know that there are conditions of the mind that are without question related to a genetic problem of a person, like autism.

No one is saying that they are not responsible for their sins.
If I sleep too long and fail to be diligent in the roles in my life, I am sinning. The fact that I might have a higher proclivity toward such laziness because of some theoretical weakness that comes from my genes doesn’t absolve me of the choice to give in to that temptation or not.
If my wife blows up at me and doesn’t rule her anger, it’s not because her Hispanic heritage makes her do it, but because she gives in to that temptation rather than resisting it.

God doesn’t have to infuse or place evil into any man. Our temptations are already there. All He has to do is give men over to it (as Romans 1 says), and they will pursue that evil. Why can’t that be just as true of sodomy as anything else?

Again, since people haven’t apparently read what I have said, I am not agreeing with the stance that sodomy is genetically related.
I have serious questions regarding the idea that genetics determines such a thing.
However, I don’t see a biblical reason to categorically deny it either, so I’m not going to idely watch people here mock others supporting it.

I play fair in debate. I may sometimes defend a side I disagree with for the sake of stopping invalid reasoning being used against them.

[christian cerna]

Todd, if you are saying that men are homosexuals due to a genetic trait, not only are you giving them an excuse for their behavior, but you are also saying that it is impossible for a homosexual man to change his ways, unless of course God performs a miracle on him and changes his genetic structure.

If you read, my post, you will see that I specifically stated that man is responsible for his own sins regardless of the inclinations of his flesh and depraved mind. I’m not sure where you derived your conclusion from. Christian, I’m saying that homosexuality is a direct result of the Fall. God’s intended design for Creation involved men and women as perfect complements to each other. His creative intent was that they would live in close communion and fellowship with Him as they lived out their likeness to Him. At the Fall, man was cursed with both physical and spiritual death…depravity, decay, and death are now universally present.

Someone can have a temptation/inclination/lust/predisposition for any type of sin…that does not preclude personal responsibility. Someone might wrestle with extreme anger due to chemical imbalances in his brain. That does not mean that he is not responsible, nor does it mean that he cannot work to overcome this susceptibility. But the very nature of total and unlimited depravity is that man cannot change himself. Only God, through the supernatural regenerative work of the Spirit can change man. So I would actually view your second statement as accurate.

First of all, I am Hispanic. And I find it offensive that you keep mentioning Hispanic people, as if they are the only people that can be controlled by passions. Our family is pretty laid back, as are all of our relatives. Perhaps if you actually took the time to get to know other cultures or families, you would realize that there are all kinds of people out there.

Secondly, the fact that you keep bringing up sleep disorders or autism, and comparing it to temptation or tendency to sin, mean that you are just being silly or seeking to be argumentative.

[christian cerna]

First of all, I am Hispanic. And I find it offensive that you keep mentioning Hispanic people, as if they are the only people that can be controlled by passions. Our family is pretty laid back, as are all of our relatives. Perhaps if you actually took the time to get to know other cultures or families, you would realize that there are all kinds of people out there.

Secondly, the fact that you keep bringing up sleep disorders or autism, and comparing it to temptation or tendency to sin, mean that you are just being silly or seeking to be argumentative.

I’m sorry if my choice of example offends you. I used it because of my wife and her family, who would agree with me on my assessment.
I’ll use Germans or English next time to avoid that, if it helps.

I said nothing about “sleep disorders” but about a temptation to sleep more than I should. As for my example of autism, that’s a direct reply to your comment on how you said the sin of sodomy is a mental thing as opposed to a physical thing. That’s a logical false dichotomy to make it seem that there are two distinct options only, and not more than that.

[Mike Harding]

Wicked desires? That’s my entire point. There is no indication in Scripture that homosexuality is a biological orientation as opposed to a sinful choice, cultivated and nurtured by the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the boastful pride of life. The argument of the left is that man has no more control of his homosexual orientation than he does the color of his skin–thus, it is a civil rights issue comparable to the race issue. Christ, however, did not die to save us from a biological orientation; he died to save from our sin. There is a difference between Total Depravity and Total Corruption. All are born Totally Depraved; all, however, do not become Totally Corrupt. Homosexuality is a sign of significant corruption, along with many other unlawful and unnatural behaviors listed above. Any human being has the potential of committing the most vile of sins. Thus, the cure for sin is not a scientist, surgeon, or psychologist. The cure is a Savior who regenerates a man and imparts to him a new nature. Modern science has nothing to offer us here.

Thank you for this helpful clarification and may I give it an amen.

Matthew, before we continue with this discussion, show me one scientific study that shows that homosexuality is caused by genetics. You are basing your whole argument on something which has not been found or proven.

I agree with you, Todd. The sin nature is passed through our parents, and is very possible that there are certain inclinations towards certain sins inherent in what is passed along to us. That in no way excuses any kind of sin in any way.

It has always been interesting to me how Christians could say, “There is no possible genetic basis for homosexuality whatsoever!” and then say, “Sure, I lose my temper a lot, but hey…I’m Irish!” or “Sure, I lose my temper a lot, but hey…I get that from my dad.”

For those interested in the whole science/genes discussion relative to homosexuality, the book My Genes Made me do it might be of interest to you. It can be found for free at this site.

A summary of the book states:

The book shows that homosexual orientation is not biologically driven or fixed but that change toward heterosexuality frequently occurs naturally without any therapeutic interventions.

Thank you, Brenda. I will take a look at it.