Obama: I won’t make churches conduct gay marriages

[Andrew K.]

[christian cerna]

Not all sins are equal before God. Telling a lie is not the same as murdering a man. Stealing an apple is not the same as lying in bed with a man.

You need to read your Bible more, Todd.

Thank you for this, Christian. That needs to be said more often, I’m afraid.

In any case, maybe someone mentioned this before, but isn’t Obama’s promise rather empty given that no one forces churches to conduct a marriage for anyone? My father denies couples marriage for a host of reasons (primarily because he doesn’t like doing weddings) and we never had any feds knocking on our door.

Andrew, it’s only a matter of time before it happens. First it will begin at the Christian universities. A law will be passed that says that any college or university that receives national accreditation, or financial assistance from the government, cannot discriminate against homosexual students or homosexual professors when deciding who becomes a part of the school.

Then it will Christian small business who will be targeted. Forcing them either to hire openly homosexuals or face penalties. After that it will be Christian publishers, book sellers, charities, etc.

[christian cerna]

Not all sins are equal before God. Telling a lie is not the same as murdering a man. Stealing an apple is not the same as lying in bed with a man.

You need to read your Bible more, Todd.

Thanks, Christian, I hadn’t thought of reading my Bible. I’ll take that under advisement.

You might have noticed that I specifically compared homosexuality to other sexual sins (adultery, child abuse). Your comment refutes a position that I did not present. But I thank you for clarifying that I should not have said something that I did not say.

I would be interested in seeing your grid for determining levels of sin. I’m sure I could learn much from it. I assume that this is part of it:

“Homosexuality is merely the ultimate result of extreme fornication and adultery. Sexual sin comes in degrees. First lust, then fornication, then adultery, sexual abuse/pedophilia, incest, homosexuality.”

In Leviticus 18:1-30, God forbids sexual immorality in all its forms…and he dedicates one whole verse to homosexuality (v.22). I would imagine that it would warrant a little more coverage than that if it was the greatest of all sexual sins (or the greatest of all sins?). In Leviticus 20:10-21, Homosexuality warranted death under the Mosaic law!…as did sexual relations during the menstrual period (somehow that one is absent from your list).

In Romans 1, Paul lays out the need for the Gospel. God’s wrath is poured out on mankind because man rejects God and His rule over them. They can see his sovereignty and they choose idolatry and self-worship instead (1:18-23). As a result of this misplaced worship, God allows mankind to be filled with every kind of sin and lust…all of this came about because they refused to worship God (1:24-25). In 1:26-27, Paul uses homosexuality as an example of a sin because it is 1) a visual picture of mankind’s rejection of God’s creation ordinance and 2) it was a sexual sin forbidden in Jewish culture but allowed in Roman culture. If you believe (as most conservative commentators do) that Paul is laying out a case of condemnation for the Gentiles (before making similar cases against the Jews, the moralists, and ultimately all mankind), then you will see the logic of Paul’s reference to homosexuality. This argument is further bolstered by a contemporary Jewish writing that connected Gentile idolatry to their sexual sins (cf. Moo, 97, specifically note #18 with regards to the Wisdom of Solomon). Paul then lays out a “vice list” of general social sins to demonstrate the overall wickedness of an unregenerate mind. From the progression of the passage, it seems the penultimate expression of man’s rebellion is actually his unregenerate (and hopelessly evil) mind. If homosexuality is the worst of sins, then it would seem to be the sin that people need to be most saved from…thus it would be likely to reappear when Paul transitions into the results of the Gospel (12:1ff). But Paul seems more intent on talking about the transformed mind that comes with regeneration (12:2 especially). I think Paul’s point is that mankind refuses to worship God and accordingly is blinded by a sinful mind. Because of his sinful heart/mind, man engages in homosexuality and other sinful actions…but mankind also tries to engage in good actions (i.e. the Law; cf 3:20). These good actions are not sufficient to save because of man’s sinful heart/mind. (Taken in context, I have a hard time seeing how homosexuality is worse than other sexual sins.

But like you said…I should read my Bible more.

[christian cerna]

We should care deeply about what the government is doing. You may be thinking to yourself that none of this changes how you view marriage. That may be true. But all of these laws are going to open up Pandora’s box. The homosexual activists have already destroyed the Boy Scouts. They are already at work at taking away a small business’s right to serve who it wishes to serves. They have made their way into public schools, forcing teachers to teach that homosexuality is just another valid lifestyle choice. It’s only a matter of time before a law is passed that will require ministers to marry any couple that comes into the church asking to be married.

Jesus paid taxes to a government that demanded emperor worship. Paul told Roman believers to honor a ruler that would eventually test their flammability at his garden parties. The church is no stranger to adversity…in fact, it seems to thrive on it. What’s to be afraid of?

If I’m an elder in a church, I will refuse to perform homosexual marriages (or incestuous marriages, or bestial marriages etc). What will the government do then? Take away the tax privileges of my church ? (who needs em?) Throw me in jail? (consistent with the tradition of the apostles) Take my life? (because heaven would really suck?).

You are welcome to care deeply about the government…I choose not to.

I am not saying that we need to be involved in government to be good Christians. I am saying that a wise man will take note of what is happening in the courtrooms, as the laws and rulings passed in them will have an effect on all of our lives, whether for good or ill.

And it is easy to talk about being willing to endure any manner of persecution during good times. But wait till things change- and they will change quickly. What happens when it affects your children? What happens when you lose your job because you shared the gospel with someone?

christian,

did you read the verses I mentioned? Paul pretty clearly articulates that homosexuality is a result of the darkening of the mind which occurs as a result of God’s judgment on rebellious idolaters. While he does not say that every idolater practices homosexuality, he does seem to indicate that the rebellion within man’s heart leads to all kinds of corruption and wickedness.

It would be more accurate to say that God’s judgment and wrath comes upon those who practice sexual immorality and idolatry.

You are not reading the phrase “gave them over to” correctly. In the following verses it states that God gave Man over to all manner of sin. These are sins that most men commit on a daily basis. I believe that all of Chapter one is referring to original sin, and how man’s nature is corrupt as a result of it.

And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things pwhich are not fitting; 29 being filled with all unrighteousness, 3sexual immorality, wickedness, 4covetousness, 5maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers, 30 backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31 6undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, 7unforgiving, unmerciful; 32 who, qknowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things rare deserving of death, not only do the same but also sapprove of those who practice them.

[christian cerna]

I am not saying that we need to be involved in government to be good Christians. I am saying that a wise man will take note of what is happening in the courtrooms, as the laws and rulings passed in them will have an effect on all of our lives, whether for good or ill.

And it is easy to talk about being willing to endure any manner of persecution during good times. But wait till things change- and they will change quickly. What happens when it affects your children? What happens when you lose your job because you shared the gospel with someone?

If persecution was easy, it wouldn’t be persecution.

Marriage is the exclusive God ordained institution between one man (husband) and one woman (wife) in a mutually consented “one-flesh” relationship, consisting of mutually supportive companionship and physical union (Gen 1:27; 2:24; 1 Cor 7:1-6; Rom 1:26-27). As such marriage is a life-long, monogamous, heterosexual, covenant relationship between the man and the woman, publicly entered into before God as witness and enforcer (Prov 2:17; Mal 2:16; Matt 19:6) and recognized by God’s institution of human government (Deut 22:13-17; Gen 29:25-26; Rom 13:1; Matt 22:21). The marriage covenant is authoritatively based on divine law and normally recognized by civil law.

The marital covenant with God as witness and enforcer involves certain obligatory responsibilities on the side of both husband and wife: (1) marital love including conjugal relations (Gen 2:23-24), (2) living together as a single household (Gen 2:24), (3) faithfulness to the marriage bed (Ex 20:14), (4) provision for the wife by the husband (Gen 30:30; Deut 22:13-29), (5) submission to the husband by the wife (Gen 3:16), (6) and the proper raising of any children born to the union (Ezra 9-10; Mal 2; Eph 5-6). Thus, marriage is not a matter of mere social convention, but rather is a sacred bond between one man and one woman, defined by God alone, instituted by God and entered into before God.

Sexual relations do not alone constitute a genuine marriage (John 4:17-18) due to the fact that sexual activity and relations outside the marriage bond as defined above are always considered to be sinful (Hebrews 13:4; Matt 9:9). It is absolutely necessary in a militantly pagan culture to submit our sexual practice as believers to the Lordship of Christ which will result in God’s glory and our good. Natural sexual desire is a gift of God and is to be placed in the service of God exclusively through marriage. God affirms the beauty of the one-flesh relationship exclusively within the confines of God-ordained marriage (Gen 2:24-26; Song of Solomon; Prov 5:15-19; Heb 13:4; 1 Cor 7:1-6). The initial purpose for the one-flesh relationship is procreational as the natural result of sexual union and fulfilling the dominion mandate (Gen 1:28; cf. Gen 9:1). The second purpose of the one-flesh relationship is relational (Gen 2:18, 21-23), thereby alleviating man’s aloneness. The third purpose of the one-flesh relationship is social. Unrestrained sexual license greatly contributes to an undisciplined and disorderly society producing family breakdown, divorce, illegitimacy, disease, the welfare state, abuse, criminal behavior, bitterness, and slavery to sin (Matt 5:8; 5:28; Job 31:1; Ps 119:9; Gen 2:25; cf. Ps 51:10; Rom 1:18-32). Without accepted norms based on biblical prescription there will not be sufficient public restraint to control acts of sexual impropriety and immodesty in society (Ezek 16:36; 23:18; Rom 13:1-6). The final purpose of the one-flesh relationship in monogamous, heterosexual marriage is recreational. Sexual pleasure is God’s gracious gift for his image bearers to be enjoyed exclusively in marriage without fear, shame, or guilt as the ultimate expression of marital love (Song of Solomon; Prov 5:15-19; Heb 13:4; 1 Cor 7).

All other forms of sexual activity outside of monogamous, heterosexual marriage are forbidden in Scripture, including fornication (“any sexual activity outside of marriage” 1 Cor 7:2; 1 Thess 4:3), adultery (“with someone other than one’s own spouse” Ex 20:14; Matt 5:28), palingamy (“remarriage to a formerly divorced spouse after an intervening marriage” Deut 24:1-4), homosexuality (“any same-sex sexual activity” Gen 19:5-7; Lev 18:22; Rom 1:27; 1 Cor 6:9; 1 Tim 1:10; Jude 7), incest (“sexual activity with family members or relatives” Lev 20:11-21; 1 Cor 5:1), obscenity (Eph 5:3-4), pornography (Matt 5:28; Mark 7:21-22; Gal 5:26; 1 Thess 4:5; Rev 18:9), prostitution (Prov 5:1-23; 7:4-27; 1 Cor 6:18), transvestitism (Deut 22:5; 1 Cor 11), criminal sexual behavior (rape, molestation, pedophilia, bestiality, necrophilia, pederasty, etc. Rom 13:1-6; Lev 18-22), and impurity (“moral filth in one’s heart and thoughts” (James 1:21; Rev 22:11; Rom 1:24; 2 Pet 2:10).

Sexual activity is not to be worshiped or idolized as is so commonly done in modern society. All people, including Christians in particular, are obligated by their creaturely existence to enjoy God’s gracious gifts while gratefully acknowledging the Creator’s purposes and parameters for those gifts, particularly the gift of sexuality (Rom 1:18-32). All sexual sin is ultimately a violation of the covenantal relationship God has established with the first man and woman as representatives of the human race to whom God directly gave the gift of human sexuality within the exclusive confines of monogamous, heterosexual marriage. Those who violate God’s design for sexual activity and marriage do so at their own peril and ultimately dehumanize and degrade a person into sinful bondage and sexual slavery (Job 36:14).

Biblical View of Homosexuality:

Homosexuality consists of both same-sex erotic attraction and sexual activity. A homosexual is one who nurtures an on-going erotic, romantic desire for a person of the same gender culminating in sexual involvement. Homosexuality, then, is the result of a sinful cultivation and conditioning in contrast to a natural, biological orientation. Homosexuality is not a civil right protected in the US Constitution. This equates a desired act with a constitutional right and assumes that homosexuality is an inherent part of one’s biological nature. Such reasoning would eventually be used to justify other unlawful desires such as pedophilia, incest, polygamy, bestiality, necrophilia or molestation.

Homosexuality is a clear violation of the created order of God. It violates the heterosexual nature of marriage between one man and one woman (Gen 2:24), the complementarian nature of marriage where the woman is the exclusively suitable answer to man’s aloneness in marital love and physical union (Gen 2:18-20; 3:16-19; Eph 5:22-33; 1 Pet 3:1-7), and homosexuality violates the fulfillment of the dominion mandate necessitating procreation (Gen 1:28).

The first instance of homosexual behavior in the Bible is answered by severe judgment (Gen 19:4-11). The term “know” in this context clearly refers to sexual activity between members of the same sex (Gen 19:5, 8; cf. Gen 4:1, 17, 25; 24:16; 38:26). Jude 6-8 and 2 Peter 2:4-10 clarify that the cities were characterized by unnatural sexual desires. Judges 19:22-25 parallels the situation in Sodom where the men are aggressively seeking same-sex involvement. Leviticus 18:22 and 20:13 label homosexual behavior as an abomination along with other sexual sins. These sins violate the created order, the holy attributes of God’s nature and character, and are repeatedly mentioned again in the NT as sinful, abominable, and contrary to the will of God. Homosexuality particularly was a constant threat to the holiness of Israel from the surrounding Canaanite nations (Gen 9:20-27; Deut 23:17-18; Judges 19:22-25; 1 Kings 14:24; 15:12; 2 Kings 22:46; 23:7; Ezek 16:50; 18:12; 33:26).

Homosexuality is repeatedly condemned by God in the NT. Romans 1:26-32 condemns the practice of homosexuality by men or women and further condemns the condoning of such sinful activity (vv. 31-32). 1 Corinthians 6:9 condemns both partners in the homosexual encounter. “Effeminate” (malakoi) and “homosexuals” (‘arsenoikoitoi) refer to the passive and active sides of the homosexual relationship respectively. The “effeminate” are those who willingly allow themselves to be sodomized; whereas the “homosexuals” are those who actively engage in sodomizing the effeminate. 1 Timothy 1:10 mentions the violation of the seventh commandment to include both “immoral men and homosexuals,” citing the same Greek term used in 1 Corinthians 6:9 and the Greek translation (LXX) of the Hebrew term in Leviticus 18:22 and 20:13. Finally, 2 Peter 2:6 and Judges 7 reference the judgment of Sodom and Gomorrah for indulging in gross immorality and going after strange flesh–that is men with men.

God’s Will for Sinners:

It is the clear will of God for all human beings made in the image of God to abstain from immorality. This is especially true for professing believers in Christ (1 Thess 4:1-8). His image-bearers must abstain from immorality and refrain from approving immoral behavior (Rom 1:31-32). Those who practice these sins and give approval of such will not inherit the Kingdom of God (Eph 5:3-5; cf. Gal 5 and 1 Cor 6).
Thankfully, God in His grace offers His gospel to all sinners. All human beings are sinners (Romans 3:23). He promises to wash, sanctify, and justify any sinner who comes to Him with repentant faith in the Person and Cross-work of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Though sexual sin carries severe consequences in this life and eternal judgment in the life to come, all sin, including sexual sin, can be forgiven via the grace of God available on account of Christ’s infinite atonement for sin applied to those who repent of their sin and place their unreserved trust in Jesus Christ alone for their eternal salvation (1 Cor 6:9-11; Acts 17:30; 1 John 1:9; Romans 6:1-7). Because of human depravity, it is possible for any man to commit any sin at any time. Therefore, we must humbly take every opportunity to help others by introducing them to Jesus Christ, the only Savior of man from sin. In addition, we must help any professing Christian who is battling with sexual sin. We do so by accurately calling sin what it is and second by encouraging genuine repentance in order to restore fellowship with Christ and the joy of one’s salvation (Ps 51). Christ did not die to save us from an orientation; He died to save us from our sin. Jesus Christ is love incarnate (1 John 4:8) and therefore by “reason of his much love” sacrificed his life on the cross in order save us, regenerate us, justify us, and sanctify us. In this way we bear one another’s burdens and so fulfill the law of Christ (Gal 6:1-6).

[pvawter] Christian, your reading of Romans 1 is interesting, but without support. Paul makes no mention of Gen 3 or the first sin, he is clearly describing the universality of sin in light of the natural revelation of God. You argue that homosexuality is the result of extreme fornication and adultery, where do you find that taught on Scripture? Paul established a logical progression from rebellion to idolatry to all kinds of moral corruption. What is God’s role? He gave men up to their rebellion leading to these sins, which enslave men’s minds and debase their souls. While His final judgment for these things is yet to come, I believe we can say that this is part of God’s judgment right now.

I say this because, in most cases, homosexuals began their sexual experience with someone of the same sex after being sexually abused as a child by an older person of the same sex. Since we know that homosexuals are not born that way, and that God does not make men homosexuals, it is the best way to explain it. In some cases, it may also be cause by a person being exposed to pornography at an early age and experimenting.

[christian cerna]

[pvawter] Christian, your reading of Romans 1 is interesting, but without support. Paul makes no mention of Gen 3 or the first sin, he is clearly describing the universality of sin in light of the natural revelation of God. You argue that homosexuality is the result of extreme fornication and adultery, where do you find that taught on Scripture? Paul established a logical progression from rebellion to idolatry to all kinds of moral corruption. What is God’s role? He gave men up to their rebellion leading to these sins, which enslave men’s minds and debase their souls. While His final judgment for these things is yet to come, I believe we can say that this is part of God’s judgment right now.

I say this because, in most cases, homosexuals began their sexual experience with someone of the same sex after being sexually abused as a child by an older person of the same sex. Since we know that homosexuals are not born that way, and that God does not make men homosexuals, it is the best way to explain it. In some cases, it may also be cause by a person being exposed to pornography at an early age and experimenting.

I would argue that the point of these first chapters in Romans is that homosexuals are born that way (even as all sinners are born as sinners). There is no theological issue with admitting that certain people could be porn with an inclination toward homosexuality (just as there is nothing objectionable with stating that some people have a propensity for alcoholism or anger). A strong inclination toward a sin does not remove responsibility for that sin.; Again, Paul’s point is that mankind is totally depraved…their judgment from God is that their minds are inherently darkened and their actions are merely an outflow of that moral bankruptcy.

I don’t want to rehash the nature/nurture discussion here…but I think it is simplistic to suggest that homosexuality is entirely the result of abuse or pornography. It has been hypothesized/”proven” by a number of peer-reviewed studies that there is a genetic predisposition toward homosexuality. Obviously, you could dispute their findings…and if you are a scientist, you might be able to do so quite well; but there is not theological reason for discounting this concept. In fact, it seems to be well-grounded based upon the the theological concept of total depravity.

Honestly, we’ve gone pretty far afield in this discussion. I’m going to try to bring this back to the initial discussion and maybe address a few of the things that have been said since then.

Yes, the President said that he was not going to apply anything regarding this ruling to religious institutions.
First off, that’s a simple promise to make, since he would have no legal authority to do otherwise. It really is that simple, even if he wanted to he can’t.

However, I have to insert a note of caution here.
I see some very dangerous thoughts and words coming from people in the preceding conversation. It’s sad to see how quickly people move from the scriptural standards of conduct when they become afraid.
There is a presumption of evil intent on the part of our President that is disconcerting. It’s both uncharitable and unwise, since it mentally undermines the respect and honor that we are still due to give him because of his role.
Do I agree with his policies? Practically not at all. Do I agree with him on this matter? Not in the least. But neither of those facts change the response that God’s word commands to him in the least.

Yes, this is a sad time for our nation with the way that it is being led down the wrong path, but in the end it really matters very little what happens in this nation.
America’s rise or decline only in the most peripheral way touches the spirituality and growth of God’s church.
We need to do our part (make informed and wise choices on those we have the power to select in our leadership), and then leave the rest to God.
We accomplish far more good for our nation, our families, our churches, and the kingdom of God by living holy lives and praying than we ever do by wearing ourselves out discussing the constitutionality of the decisions made by SCOTUS.

Todd, if you are saying that men are homosexuals due to a genetic trait, not only are you giving them an excuse for their behavior, but you are also saying that it is impossible for a homosexual man to change his ways, unless of course God performs a miracle on him and changes his genetic structure.

[christian cerna]

Todd, if you are saying that men are homosexuals due to a genetic trait, not only are you giving them an excuse for their behavior, but you are also saying that it is impossible for a homosexual man to change his ways, unless of course God performs a miracle on him and changes his genetic structure.

What Todd is saying, at least I am pretty sure, is that genetically there could be a link to personal feelings and temptations, such as sodomy. That is not saying that they are programmed to be sodomites, but that they are more likely to have that temptation than others.
The best example that comes to mind is the way that Latinate peoples are known globally for difficulty controlling their emotions. Like how Spain has the highest number of incidences of “crimes of passion” of any nation in the world. I can say that I get to see it being married to a Hispanic and dealing with a Hispanic family. There is something that seems ingrained into them (perhaps genetically) that leads to them being stronger in their passions (anger, sadness, etc).

In the end, I don’t know if I agree with that idea. They would have to be able to scientifically prove (which all the studies they have so far done only show what they think might be a correlation, but not a causation) differences for the various proclivities that come with it, like bisexuality. Does that mean there’s a gene that is only partially mutated?
I also know that many within the LGBT community shy away from this side of the argument as well, since it could easily be taken by many to mean that sodomy is merely a sickness that can then be cured by gene therapy.

However, what I can conclusively say is that the idea that all or most homosexuality is caused by abuse (sexual or not) or some other environmental factor is entirely without merit.

[christian cerna]

Todd, if you are saying that men are homosexuals due to a genetic trait, not only are you giving them an excuse for their behavior, but you are also saying that it is impossible for a homosexual man to change his ways, unless of course God performs a miracle on him and changes his genetic structure.