The Gospel Coalition: Can God Save a Fundamentalist School?

…they have an approved list of churches!

It’s not an “approved list.” It is just a “helpful” list! Their students scatter all over the place for church worship. I know one Pastor of a new church plant in Verona, WI who had two MBBC students attennd his church who just graduated today. This church is KJVO and anti-Calvinistic - both points are not taught at MBBC. They allow their students latitude in worship choices, which I applaud.

[Don Sailer]

[TylerR]

I don’t know about BJU, but speaking as a Maranatha grad and current MDiv student, their total attendance is at record levels and growing. They had 1,200 enrolled this past school year, in Bible College and Seminary.

They are charting an accurate course in fundamentalism and are doing it very well. Things are alive and well there. The constant lament that “all fundamentalist schools are dying” is not quite so simple …

Maranatha had the foresight and independence to seek regional accreditation years before NIU and BJU.

NIU and BJU are now paying for this lack of common sense.

I am reminded of the former IFCA school, Grand Rapids School of Bible and Music (GRSBM) that used to be over 700 strong in the late 1970’s but because they refused to seek regional accreditation until they were only a couple hundred students, they eventually were forced to merge into Grand Rapids Baptist College either in 1991 or 1992 (now called Cornerstone University).

Maranatha had the foresight and independence to seek regional accreditation years before NIU and BJU.

NIU and BJU are now paying for this lack of common sense.

I do not understand why schools are reluctant to seek accreditation. In Maranatha’s case, it appears to have helped immeasurably. I see little evidence of “forced compromise.”

I am very glad NIU and BJU have pursued TRACS - good for them. I have heard rumblings from a Pensacola grad that they are investigating accreditation. He told me he sat through a sermon while an undergrad in Pensacola which had the topic, “15 Reasons Why We’re Against Accreditation!”

Seems like shooting yourself in the foot to me.

[Mark_Smith]

I don’t have an exhaustive list, but I’ll start with excluding this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IPuUIUWE8h8

Would an MBBC student be able to “scatter” over to this (Southern) Baptist congregation in Sun Prairie?

http://www.transformationchurch.tv/

We are a community of faith desiring to see God transform us, and our cities. No matter your situation, there is room for transformation. We make no apologies for our loud music, or our challenging messages. You don’t need shallow, there’s enough of that in today’s culture. We want to go DEEP and see real Life Transformation.

Just wondering.

I’m a distance learning seminary student. I have little idea what goes on at the Bible College. My stance on dictatorial school standards still stands, whether it be MBBC, BJU or anywhere else. I don’t like it.

I wouldn’t and don’t in one sense, either. But if you are MBBC and don’t have a list, inevitably, someone (or a whole bunch of someones) will end up at a place like I just linked to. Inevitably.

I know what you wanted. You wanted me to make some list, then you’d mention that some famous hymn from 1855 was written by a modalist and aren’t we all hypocrites for singing it….or something like that. Right?

Well, you can dress all of this “modern worship” up in flowery words. You can justify it in your mind as reaching young people, it is the culture, we hear it at Wal-Mart, etc…but in the end this music is DESIGNED by the writers to reach the emotions. That is what it does. It makes you feel good. You think you are worshiping God. You feel like it. It is little different than the Israelites who went to the high places to worship God there. Their intent was to worship God but it was the wrong way to do it. Those high places were often places where people felt like they were connecting with God rather than the stuffy “legalism” of the temple.

And don’t go thinking I am some dusty fundamentalist. I am 40. I was saved watching Kenneth Copeland’s Believers Voice of Victory in 1991! I spent a long time (a long long time) in charismatic churches. I’ve worshiped with these songs for years. At first you think it is liberating. After a while, you sing songs that are about “him” rather than specifically saying Jesus or God. Then the song are almost romantic in quality. You think you can avoid it, and I hope you do, but watch out.

Actually, Mark, your post shows you have no idea what we do at our church or why we do it. We use a variety of music and instrumentation based on our understanding of a biblical view of music and worship.

If you want to compare our worship to OT idol worship, that is your right. But it just proves the point that Bob Bixby and the writer of the OP are trying to make.

[Todd Himes]

[mmartin]

Instead it is stated that traditionalists and fundamentalists, including Dr. Ollila, got it all wrong all those years, but now we are on the right track.

Can somebody please direct me to where this statement, or anything remotely similar, was ever made by NIU, or Dr. Olson?

Please.

Todd,

I doubt evidence will be forthcoming.

You’re right…I know nothing about your church. I am just trying to throw some caution your way. I doubt you are at idol worship yet…but my warning is that you are snuggling up to the process and the music and the people that are already there.

Look, sing the songs you want to. OK. It is obvious you think that you are free to sing CCM. But why call yourself a fundamentalist then? That is what I am trying to figure out….Just call yourself a conservative evangelical. Fundamentalist, at least in my limited experience, adds separation from apostasy and the “world” to its identity. By adopting Hillsong music, and Chris Tomlin, and Matt Redmon, and Christian Hip-Hop, etc…you are identifying with the world, at least in part. Why are you trying to hang on to the fundamentalist label? After all, plenty of evangelicals believe the core doctrines of Christianity that were once called the Fundamentals.

I frankly am shocked at many of the people at this website. I came here a few weeks ago and as far as I can tell, most of you posting on the fundamentalist threads are simply conservative evangelicals…nothing wrong with that per se. Own it and move on!

Let me ask, what do you think CCM music adds your worship at your church? How far do you go with it? Do you turn down the lights in the room, turn on stage lights, fire up the smoke machine? Or do you try to keep a lid on it? What kinds of songs do you sing regularly? That kind of thing. Help me learn please.

[Mark_Smith]

Let me ask, what do you think CCM music adds your worship at your church? How far do you go with it? Do you turn down the lights in the room, turn on stage lights, fire up the smoke machine? Or do you try to keep a lid on it? What kinds of songs do you sing regularly? That kind of thing. Help me learn please.

hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha. Well, at least I know what people think we do now.

We don’t have a smoke machine or change the lighting at all. The groups that play are varied, but usually pray together on the platform just before they start. Usually there is a drummer, a guitar or two, and two, sometimes three, vocalists. Most of the time, there is a pianist or keyboardist with them as well (I’m partial to the sound of the piano myself). Each ‘team’ is lead by a man. The lyrics to the songs are projected onto a screen so that the congregation can sing along, just like the sermon notes and outline.

The groups usually do a set of songs - anywhere from three to six. They do a couple of songs, then we have an elder / deacon open in prayer, and then the group does one more song that’s usually slower or meditative; after that, the group is finished for the day. After the pastoral prayer and announcements, we sing a hymn (played on the piano), have the message (usually about an hour in length - we’re studying the life of Christ now), then close with another hymn (also on the piano). If we have communion - I think we do tomorrow - we’re have the pianist play songs of mediation from the hymnal while they distribute the bread and juice. After that, we collect the cups, form a circle, and sing “Blest Be The Tie That Binds”.

Songs - well, they run the gamut from your standard fundy praise songs to Sovereign Grace to Gaither to Tomlin or others. Some of them I have never heard other than in our services. None of the gospel ‘rock’ or ‘rap’ is played…the emphasis with the songs that are played are on doctrinal content and singability. The groups can select the songs, but Pastor must approve them for corporate worship. He will change the lyrics if there is a line or two that is off or bad.

If I can, I’ll get a few of the song titles and put them up later.

Mark,

There are probably plenty of us who are here because we don’t feel like we belong completely in either “camp,” the way you see them. You should probably read Joel T.’s article on ABC fundamentalism. He took a lot of flak for it, and of course it’s very rough and inexact, with a lot of exceptions, but in a general sense, his taxonomy is still very useful. You sound very much similar to a type A, even if you wouldn’t “own it” as you said. We also have plenty of type C’s, which would indeed be closer to conservative evangelicalism than many forms of fundamentalism, but yet don’t feel comfortable moving completely into that orbit.

This site allows all of those to come together and discuss, even if that discussion “shocks” people like you. Frankly, the discussion is something really needed, since many of us have come out of camps in fundamentalism, where ideas contrary to the prevailing thought were not even to be discussed, let alone thoughtfully considered. There is no sharpening without sparks.

I think Greg’s question was completely fair, not so he could tell you about a hymn written by a modalist, but to understand principles. Nearly everyone I come across with your view of music refuses to give useful principles but always says something like “let me hear it and I will tell you.” That’s kind of what you did with your example — you gave one you don’t approve of. I suppose if your list of approved/disapproved was long enough, some principles might be able to be determined, but if they could not be matched directly with scripture, they are just your views, not authoritative. Personally, the reason I think people refuse to give their principles on music (leaving lyrics out) is either because they have none that are well-defined, or they are afraid to have them examined in the light of scripture.

I’ve always been kind of the “odd one out” in these discussions, because when it comes to choosing church music, I would be mostly in the Bauder-Aniol camp. I prefer traditional, conservative, high-church-type music. My problem has been trying to come up with scriptural reasons that that is the only type of music God likes and is acceptable for worship. While associations and staying away from worldliness guide my choices away from much of what would come under the category of CCM, I still don’t see enough scriptural evidence for chucking it ALL out based only on form. When people like me ask for principles from people like you (those who seem to be completely sure they know the answer of what is right and wrong in this area), and then get non-answers like those above, it only serves to convince us even more that you have no idea what you are talking about. However, I did want to disabuse you of the notion that all people who disagree with your view of music think everything goes. In fact, in my case, it’s just the opposite, and I still think your view of music is wrong.

Now, does that make me an evangelical rather than a fundamentalist? You decide. But if you want to convince me, you’d better have scripture and a very convincing argument on your side. Telling me I’m “hanging onto a label,” when my disagreement is with something that is clearly NOT a fundamental, even if other fundamentalists have believed it, practiced it, or even tried to elevate it to a fundamental of the faith is not going to get the job done.

[Mark_Smith]

You’re right…I know nothing about your church. I am just trying to throw some caution your way. I doubt you are at idol worship yet…but my warning is that you are snuggling up to the process and the music and the people that are already there.

Look, sing the songs you want to. OK. It is obvious you think that you are free to sing CCM. But why call yourself a fundamentalist then? That is what I am trying to figure out….Just call yourself a conservative evangelical. Fundamentalist, at least in my limited experience, adds separation from apostasy and the “world” to its identity. By adopting Hillsong music, and Chris Tomlin, and Matt Redmon, and Christian Hip-Hop, etc…you are identifying with the world, at least in part. Why are you trying to hang on to the fundamentalist label? After all, plenty of evangelicals believe the core doctrines of Christianity that were once called the Fundamentals.

I frankly am shocked at many of the people at this website. I came here a few weeks ago and as far as I can tell, most of you posting on the fundamentalist threads are simply conservative evangelicals…nothing wrong with that per se. Own it and move on!

Mark,

One of the best things about Sharper Iron is that it brings those from Fundamentalist backgrounds all together. I have been exposed to other stripes of Fundamentalism, including those that are more conservative in their music style. Many people here have blown away my stereotypes and made me revaluate how I view those that are more conservative and traditional. Although at the same time, it at times can be frustrating, especially when some end up writing me off as “worldly” because we utilize gospel hip-hop in our inner-city ministry without even listening to how I apply Phil 4:8….. My background is the GARBC (General Association of Regular Baptist Churches) some 1200 churches strong right now. They were one of the first groups to separate from apostasy in the Northern Baptist Convention. Within the GARBC, Michigan, Ohio, and Indiana are more progressive in their worship styles (along with pockets in other states such as California) many of which blend hymns, worship choruses and have a worship band. The GARBC has always been that way. Also, I have ties with the IFCA (Independent Fundamental Churches of America). I am one of the elders at a daughter church plant of one of the largest IFCA churches in the country. There are about 1200 IFCA churches throughout America. Again, many of the Midwest and some on the west coast utlilize a CCM worship style with a worship band. My point is that it seems that you have limited exposure to these more progressive (in worship style) fundamental churches. It isn’t just a few. Between these two groups I’d guess there is over a thousand fundamental churches that are more progressive in their worship style. Their preferences are different than yours and they haven’t gone down the slippery slope that you keep on warning about.